tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post1671852956505536158..comments2024-03-28T10:08:06.291-05:00Comments on Give2Attain: MN Legislative SessionJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-54323912093274905552014-03-05T18:28:57.274-06:002014-03-05T18:28:57.274-06:00Yes, I wish I could be more clear. But on the oth...Yes, I wish I could be more clear. But on the other hand simply reading the language of the bill or, worse still, accepting the stated "good intentions" as the actual outcome of the law is not sufficient. One needs to read through it and identify what the incentives or disincentives are, taking into account the realities of government's deeply flawed omniscience and of human nature. We've seen the idiocy perpetrated by "zero tolerance" policies, and I see no reason to trust that this massive government intrusion into interpersonal relationships-- legislating morality-- will be better.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-69144854188084122932014-03-05T10:02:58.151-06:002014-03-05T10:02:58.151-06:00I'm not defending the bill per se, just pointi...I'm not defending the bill per se, just pointing out that what you say the bill does isn't what the bill does. There are perfectly legitimate reasons to oppose the bill and it doesn't need to be trumped up with fear-mongering.Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-20860040549681009612014-03-05T09:44:52.800-06:002014-03-05T09:44:52.800-06:00Really? Why the repeated laundry list of "ra...Really? Why the repeated laundry list of "race, color, creed, national origin, and on and on? It's seems about half the words in the bill. I wonder why you are defending this bill, when it is clearly agenda-driven and unnecessary. We already have state laws requiring schools to have an anti-bullying policy, and they are working. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-59914716319366912732014-03-05T08:11:42.230-06:002014-03-05T08:11:42.230-06:00There's no mention of "protected classes&...There's no mention of "protected classes" in the statute, nor does it suggest that it's OK to bully for shall we say, "traditional reasons".Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-15810749999779154702014-03-04T22:03:32.989-06:002014-03-04T22:03:32.989-06:00Well, it doesn't /say/ they are defining "...Well, it doesn't /say/ they are defining "thought crimes," but what else would you call defining "bullying," an offense requiring "preventive and remedial action" by the schools (aka punishment), by referring to it as doing something BECAUSE of a victim's protected class? In other words, a kid can get beat up, but if the kid is in a protected class than the reason for the beating is assumed to be a hate crime and the kid must be "re-educated." Kids not members of the protected class-- nerds, freckles, poor dressers, etc.-- can now be beat with impunity, as opposed to current law which protects every kid equally. It's a law in search of a problem and guaranteed to cause one. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-68604637135451467712014-03-04T15:58:20.718-06:002014-03-04T15:58:20.718-06:00The bill, again, doesn't establish any punishm...The bill, again, doesn't establish any punishments. It only says that districts have to have a policy.<br /><br />And I don't see anything in the statute that requires anyone to think any particular way. There's a difference between thinking something and behaving in a disrespectful manner.Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-15003736148498134012014-03-04T15:43:29.772-06:002014-03-04T15:43:29.772-06:00"accused of bullying without necessarily enga..."accused of bullying without necessarily engaging in egregious behavior" "the kids can be suspended, expelled, have a mark on their permanent record that could keep them out of college"<br /><br />How exactly would this bill do these things???<br /><br />I assume you think this law will in some way encourage Teachers to falsely accuse well behaved children of harassing other children?<br /><br />What prevents them from doing that today?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-39084806498777442412014-03-04T15:02:33.152-06:002014-03-04T15:02:33.152-06:00Well, let's see... the kids can be suspended, ...Well, let's see... the kids can be suspended, expelled, have a mark on their permanent record that could keep them out of college. Seems like punishment to me. <br /><br />And you keep repeating what I say as evidence for your position. My claim is that we already have societal norms, rules and expectations for BEHAVIOR. What this law does is two-fold: It defines bullying in such a way that the "thoughts" of the perpetrator (who may be so young as to not understand the "rules") are what matters, not the behavior. The second thing it does is to create a climate where someone can be accused of bullying without necessarily engaging in egregious behavior. This is a lot like those rules on "zero tolerance" and we all know how well those idiotic things are working. I see a six-year-old was just expelled for pointing a finger at a classmate, with his thumb up. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-49289533280475831012014-03-04T13:51:09.860-06:002014-03-04T13:51:09.860-06:00I'll ask again, what is your rationale for thi...I'll ask again, what is your rationale for this statement.<br /><br />"The kids are the ones being punished"<br /><br />And the following comment is somewhat amusing since many laws are written to promote/enforce societally acceptable thoughts and behaviors.<br /><br />"to get the adults to "thinking right" that still isn't an acceptable use of law."<br /><br />And Conservatives love to use the law in this way. (ie anti...pot, pornography, abortion, prostitution, gay marriage, polygamy, polyandry, etc)<br /><br />By the way, people are still free to think whatever they want. The bullying and the other laws just dissuade one from taking action on a societally unacceptable thought. And treating GBLT kids differently from other people is becoming societally unacceptable.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-29208242397720863042014-03-04T10:41:34.589-06:002014-03-04T10:41:34.589-06:00Sorry, but I do not accept your "thinking so&...Sorry, but I do not accept your "thinking so" as reassuring. The kids are the ones being punished, and if the intent is to get the adults to "thinking right" that still isn't an acceptable use of law. Again, the legislature can pass any law it wants, but the one they can never repeal is the law of unintended consequences and it seems this bill is loaded with them. Unless you want to believe those consequences are intended.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-68054873723074318232014-03-04T10:23:55.778-06:002014-03-04T10:23:55.778-06:00I don't think so, since most the kids themselv...I don't think so, since most the kids themselves will never read the law or the school's bullying policy.<br /><br />This is aimed at ensuring the adults behave "correctly"... An effort to ensure the adults do not view the confused LGBT kids as sinners that need to be straigtened out... (did you get that... STRAIGHT ened... hahaha) Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-40085798995270909782014-03-04T10:16:45.426-06:002014-03-04T10:16:45.426-06:00Since we already have laws, rules, expectations an...Since we already have laws, rules, expectations and norms of behavior that require Johnny to keep his hands to himself and to not use words as weapons, why do we need a law that defines the THOUGHT BEHIND this unacceptable behavior as unacceptable? With this law, we are no longer punishing (especially not with rigid statewide standards) the behavior, but the thought behind the behavior. In other words, if Johnny belittles his little brother unmercifully because "Mom likes you best," this law doesn't bother him. If he calls little brother a "fag," even once, even if he's not sure of the meaning and true or not, he receives the full punishment due under the law.<br /><br />Before you dismiss that example, are you certain that such things cannot happen in the law? Now that the LGBT activists are firmly behind this bill, what makes you think the intentions are entirely altruistic? Again, is there any substantial evidence that these suicides are the result of obvious bullying, rather than the knowledge of the silent "thought crimes" being perpetrated against them? Isn't the real purpose here to force kids to "think right" rather than act right?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-32891241907476586372014-03-03T18:13:24.030-06:002014-03-03T18:13:24.030-06:00Think Progress Link
NPR Story Link
I am still con...<a href="http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/02/26/3333161/religious-liberty-racist-anti-gay/" rel="nofollow">Think Progress Link</a><br /><a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112329862" rel="nofollow">NPR Story Link</a><br /><br />I am still confused, if little Johnny keeps his mouth shut and his hands to himself, meaning he does not torment or harass poor confused Bobby...<br /><br />What will it matter if this law gets passed or not? Johnny will still be free to judge Bobby as an unclean sinner and stay away from him for the most part. Though he may need to be polite if they end up working on a group project together. No one can read Johnny's thoughts or take actions on them. (at least not yet...) Where is this "punishment" of the innocent you are mentioning above.<br /><br />By the way, the experts seem to think reducing the harassment is the best way to address that gay child suicide problem that you are trivializing. I mean unless you think the kids are killing themselves because they just can't live with the secret.<br /><br />Maybe in the past I would have agreed with you. However now that half the tv programs show that being gay / lesbian is okay or even fashionable, I think the deaths are more likely caused by harassment from their less tolerant peers or parents.<br /><br />Now since you are a strong anti-abortion advocate, what possesses you to not promote the strongest anti-bullying laws we can if it can save at least a few lives.<br /><br />What would you do if you were a teenager in a society of gays, where you were expected to make out with and be intimate with men?<br /><br />Would your wiring allow you to follow that society's expectations? Look at the nearest man and truly envision yourself wrapped in his arms. <br /><br />Personally it just makes me shudder.... Where's that SI swim suit magazine???Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-19132169223240262362014-03-03T09:27:42.172-06:002014-03-03T09:27:42.172-06:00"I am not sure if the law will resolve the is..."I am not sure if the law will resolve the issue, but at least it will stop people from denying that there is a problem."<br /><br />So, it isn't a case of "we have to pass the law to find out what's in it," but worse, "we have to pass the law to find out what it does." I'm sorry, that doesn't work for me. According to your LGBT link, "gay" kids are 3 times more likely to commit suicide than straight kids. Here's an idea: how about we work on THAT problem? Rather than punishing all the other kids for what the "confused" kid may feel (not counting repeated physical or verbal abuse), how about we help to "unconfuse" the kid, at least to the point of dealing with the feelings of being "different" in ways other than suicide? <br /><br />The other advantage to this approach is that we don't have to care WHY the abuse takes place, meaning we haven't created a new "thought crime" law aimed at kids that may not know any better, yet. And without the thought crime element, what constitutes bullying becomes easier to define as well. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-54540350603542543062014-03-02T12:15:50.472-06:002014-03-02T12:15:50.472-06:00Here's a short and incomplete history on the t...Here's a short and incomplete history on the topic of religion used to support racism. One need only look at the early career of Jerry Falwell for another example.<br /><br />http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/02/26/3333161/religious-liberty-racist-anti-gay/<br /><br />You might want to revisit the history of the Southern Baptist convention, too. <br /><br />http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112329862Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-59496883260259347942014-03-02T07:20:47.952-06:002014-03-02T07:20:47.952-06:00RLC Civil Issue
I am not sure if the law will res...<a href="http://www.redletterchristians.org/the-church-and-the-new-civil-rights-movement/?doing_wp_cron=1393766147.2524700164794921875000" rel="nofollow">RLC Civil Issue</a><br /><br />I am not sure if the law will resolve the issue, but at least it will stop people from denying that there is a problem.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-52390281156058113342014-03-02T07:14:54.245-06:002014-03-02T07:14:54.245-06:00Bullying LGBT Stats
Churches against Civil Rights...<a href="http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/gay-bullying-statistics.html" rel="nofollow">Bullying LGBT Stats</a><br /><br /><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxQomiMHyJ0" rel="nofollow">Churches against Civil Rights</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-2908550663605442072014-03-01T18:06:47.826-06:002014-03-01T18:06:47.826-06:00I did read the legislation, and my biggest problem...I did read the legislation, and my biggest problems with it are that it is too specific some places, too vague in others, and totally unnecessary in its entirety. I keep asking, what is the problem this is supposed to solve, and is this really the best way to solve it? jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-37088744614960054762014-03-01T18:03:58.365-06:002014-03-01T18:03:58.365-06:00I cannot find such a record in my Southern Baptist...I cannot find such a record in my Southern Baptist references, quite the opposite in fact, with regard to civil rights. However, they just elected their first African American head of the denomination, and promptly passed a resolution declaring that gay marriage is not a civil rights issue. <br /><br />And that's the problem. The gay rights advocates keep talking about "equal rights" when they already have them. A gay man, for example, is perfectly free to marry any woman he wants (and who will consent). <br /><br />As for the wedding cake scenario, I will agree that some of the laws intended to protect religious liberty in such cases go overboard, and that I'm not sure where to draw the line, but it may lie somewhere between official government conduct and that of a private business. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-52322882454961587092014-03-01T09:04:23.819-06:002014-03-01T09:04:23.819-06:00"Given that, why should the State then swoop ..."Given that, why should the State then swoop in and declare that little Johnny is committing some "thought crime" by believing what his parents have taught, and somehow letting that disapproval be known with a few ill-chosen words?"<br /><br />Again, go back and read the proposed statute instead of concocting scenarios that are not reality.Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-91868048264396814822014-03-01T09:02:58.958-06:002014-03-01T09:02:58.958-06:00Go back and review your civil rights history. The...Go back and review your civil rights history. There were plenty of Southern preachers who fought on religious grounds against equal rights for African-Americans (and women, for that matter). Some people still feel that way. But we've decided that those religious objections are out of bounds when it comes to these topics.<br /><br />As for the specific wedding cake scenario: in a metro area, finding another baker may be an easy prospect. In a small town, maybe not so much. And it should be pointed out, laws like those proposed in Arizona and Kansas law go much further than just the wedding cake issue. The Kansas law, for instance, would have allowed police officers to refuse to answer calls involving homosexuals. Building inspectors could have refused to issue permits to homes owned by same-sex couples. That's insidious and just plain wrong.Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-50779064846639112202014-02-28T16:39:15.105-06:002014-02-28T16:39:15.105-06:00Leave aside for the moment whether being gay is &q...Leave aside for the moment whether being gay is "hardwired" or not (though I think it is largely impossible), how does it follow that little Johnny, regardless of his parents' view on the subject, beat little Billy so mercilessly that Billy ends his own life AS A RESULT? How is it that the schools do not stop such behavior, clearly against the law and all norms of behavior, even Johnny's parents. <br /><br />Given that, why should the State then swoop in and declare that little Johnny is committing some "thought crime" by believing what his parents have taught, and somehow letting that disapproval be known with a few ill-chosen words? Must Billy be completely insulated from differing opinions? From physical abuse, certainly, and from reckless and horrible taunting, probably, but from hurtful words or just thoughts? Someplace we have to draw the line, and by "we" I mean the parents and schools, NOT "big brother." <br /><br />Put simply, this law isn't needed.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-22693658810608993462014-02-28T16:24:02.693-06:002014-02-28T16:24:02.693-06:00Well, that thinking was behind the Civil Rights mo...Well, that thinking was behind the Civil Rights movement, declaring all sorts of private businesses as "public accommodations" and then forcing them to serve, e.g. restaurants, people of all races. That doesn't mean it happened, just that Congress had "legislated morality." And as I pointed out, this was a case where the law helped us uphold our religious values, rather than trampling them as seems to be happening here. <br /><br />Put another way, racial discrimination was not based in religious freedom, for the most part. Forcing someone to "participate" in a gay wedding IS a violation of their religious freedom. And I'm still waiting for an answer as to why the complainers don't just find another baker? Even if you win in court, and force the baker to bake for you, do you really think that cake is going to be edible? jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-28146293094889973022014-02-28T16:16:12.449-06:002014-02-28T16:16:12.449-06:00Incorporating as a corporation entitles you to all...Incorporating as a corporation entitles you to all sorts of benefits. Expecting that people serve the public is one of the responsibilities that should come along with that.<br /><br />Does that infringe on some liberties? Probably to an extent. I would argue the tradeoff there is worth it, though. Going backwards to a world where people can use the thinnest reeds to discriminate is not the direction we should be moving.Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-15627370951501911162014-02-28T15:12:05.166-06:002014-02-28T15:12:05.166-06:00Because little Johnny may bully little Bobby until...Because little Johnny may bully little Bobby until he commits suicide... Because Johnny's home values see little Bobby as a sinful behaviorially challenged pervert that needs to be punished, rather than a boy that is just wired differently from himself.<br /><br />It is kind of amusing when Parents like Johnny's end up with a child who is gay/lesbian. All that preaching and they couldn't change the wiring. The challenge is that the religious right still believes it is just a choice / behavior.<br /><br />A sin just like stealing, adultery, murder, blaspheming, etc.<br /><br />Where as most educated people are starting to accept that it is simply hard wired. Just like being a man, woman, black, white, able bodied, disabled, etc.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.com