tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post1741501543094990370..comments2024-03-28T10:08:06.291-05:00Comments on Give2Attain: Free Loader: Person or Behavior?Johnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comBlogger96125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-87792795062807917602017-01-13T08:30:03.952-06:002017-01-13T08:30:03.952-06:00See New PostSee New PostJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-41969730290656553322017-01-13T05:53:35.790-06:002017-01-13T05:53:35.790-06:00So, welfare is a LEGAL mugging? Is that really th...So, welfare is a LEGAL mugging? Is that really the distinction you want to make? Does something become wise or moral just by being written into law?<br /><br />And we keep having the same debate. I do not believe I have a choice to live elsewhere, because all other choices have substantial negative downsides. I do not believe many welfare recipients (or parents of schoolkids) have any better choices available to them. You claim we have "choices," which is true, but if all choices are worse (IN OUR OPINION, which is all that counts) than what we already have, how is that indistinguishable from having no choices at all?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-59206217201669370652017-01-12T21:26:54.896-06:002017-01-12T21:26:54.896-06:00A woman co-worker once told me she HAD to work. W...A woman co-worker once told me she HAD to work. Well I knew she was married with only 2 kids, so I reminded her in my gentlest way that her working was choice.<br /><br />She had many options, she weighted them, she scored them and then she chose...<br /><br />By the way, she quit awhile later and they bought B&B that she operated...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-56352720313102879952017-01-12T21:17:01.336-06:002017-01-12T21:17:01.336-06:00Jerry...
Of course you choose voluntarily to live ...Jerry...<br />Of course you choose voluntarily to live here, and choose to follow the laws of our society. Just like I do. There are many places that we could go, but America is wonderful, even with it's laws and taxes.<br /><br />As for the difference between mugging and tax/spend...<br /><br />Laws<br />"1. the principles and regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable to its people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and policies recognized and enforced by judicial decision. <br /><br />2. any written or positive rule or collection of rules prescribed under the authority of the state or nation, as by the people in its constitution."Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-38313349565671952312017-01-12T20:18:37.271-06:002017-01-12T20:18:37.271-06:00I did NOT choose to live here. I was born here, a...I did NOT choose to live here. I was born here, and have never been offered a reasonable choice of living somewhere else that was better. Sort of like, I believe, a lot of poor people or "unlucky kids." They haven't been offered a reasonable choice that they believed was accessible to them. <br /><br />And I don't choose to live under the country's laws, either, because there aren't reasonable choices about that, either. There are penalties for disobeying the law, and no penalty, possibly even a reward, for following them. <br /><br />Let's take your definition of welfare. Money is taken from me, by threat of force, and goes into the pockets of someone I do not know. What about that transaction is different from an ordinary street mugging?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-63162377091770387642017-01-12T16:28:12.701-06:002017-01-12T16:28:12.701-06:00It is not theft, slavery or any such silly thing.
...It is not theft, slavery or any such silly thing.<br /><br />You choose to live here. You choose to follow the country's laws.<br /><br />No one is forcing you to be here.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-24654949081955730902017-01-12T16:08:16.345-06:002017-01-12T16:08:16.345-06:00Joel, you have taken on the typical liberal belief...Joel, you have taken on the typical liberal belief about conservatives, and of course you are completely wrong. Here are a couple of more accurate ways to put it. <br /><br />I've got mine, why don't you get yours instead of stealing from me.<br />or<br />I've got mine; I can help you get yours if you like. <br /><br />I will agree that I failed to distinguish adequately between duty and obligation. Duty, as I am using it, is voluntarily accepted and driven from within. Obligation, as in law, is forced upon you from outside. Caring for poor should be a duty, voluntarily accepted, or else it is theft.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-15434460300876992462017-01-12T14:54:39.853-06:002017-01-12T14:54:39.853-06:00Joel,
Since it highly likely Jerry gives much more...Joel,<br />Since it highly likely Jerry gives much more to charity than you do... I think your comment is incorrect.<br /><br />Please remember that supporting government wealth transfer is not the same thing as being a volunteer or giving to a charity of one's own volition.<br /><br />Please remember that all of us want to help the less fortunate, we just have different ideas regarding how to best do this.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-2053655025391247222017-01-12T14:50:54.479-06:002017-01-12T14:50:54.479-06:00Jerry,
No one says a duty has to be taken on volun...Jerry,<br />No one says a duty has to be taken on voluntarily.<br /><br />Duty defined:<br />1. a moral or legal obligation; a responsibility.<br />2. a task or action that someone is required to perform<br /><br />And since you do voluntarily choose to stay here... Paying taxes is a duty whether you like it or not. Of course I am guessing Costa Rica is nice this time of year.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-84741177546917075082017-01-12T14:32:05.828-06:002017-01-12T14:32:05.828-06:00That's the typical Conservative response, jerr...That's the typical Conservative response, jerry, so I'm not shocked that you've taken on the mantle of "I've got mine, too bad for you."<br /><br />JoelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-90139586741576380652017-01-12T12:56:53.364-06:002017-01-12T12:56:53.364-06:00I have no duty except that which I accept. I can ...I have no duty except that which I accept. I can assume that duty based on some altruistic ideal, or because I am receiving some sort of reward in return. I have a duty to pay my mortgage because I freely entered into that contract and received the money to buy a house. I have a duty to be faithful to my spouse because I made a promise and because it follows my moral principles to do so. I do NOT have a "duty" to hand my money over to foolish bureaucrats who in turn hand it to worthless bums who do nothing in return, not even to help themselves out of their situation. That I can go to jail for not paying my taxes for this purpose indicates pretty strongly that it is not a duty that I would willingly accept. The LEAST government could do would be to see that my money is spent on those who would gratefully strive to make the best of it.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-71597525697966721882017-01-12T11:34:26.814-06:002017-01-12T11:34:26.814-06:00I'm glad you clarified with the quotes, becaus...<i>I'm glad you clarified with the quotes, because it your "duty" as a citizen of this country.</i><br /><br />So we agree that the generations of moochers and wards of the state are not doing their duty to their country.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-46068586002397551782017-01-12T11:19:43.327-06:002017-01-12T11:19:43.327-06:00Some Useful Links
G2A Gratitude and Happiness
G2A...Some Useful Links<br /><br /><a href="http://give2attain.blogspot.com/2016/11/gratitude-and-happiness.html" rel="nofollow">G2A Gratitude and Happiness</a><br /><a href="https://give2attain.blogspot.com/2011/01/entitlement-or-gratitude.html" rel="nofollow">G2A Entitlement or Gratitude</a><br /><a href="https://give2attain.blogspot.com/2009/12/96-or-4-my-choice.html" rel="nofollow">G2A 96 or 4 My Choice</a><br /><a href="http://give2attain.blogspot.com/2008/11/genetics-environment-or-pure-luck.html" rel="nofollow">G2A Genetics, Environment or Luck</a><br /><a href="http://give2attain.blogspot.com/2010/09/g2a-principles.html" rel="nofollow">G2A Principles</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-63267042805306384352017-01-12T11:13:09.648-06:002017-01-12T11:13:09.648-06:00I think all of you are correct.
We citizens of th...I think all of you are correct.<br /><br />We citizens of the USA should all be more grateful than we are. And yet since we pay taxes, somehow we seem to think we earned / are owed all this...<br /><br />As one of my Professors reminded my self centered proud MBA class... The single biggest reason for your success is that you were born in America, or were allowed to immigrate here.<br /><br />His rationale was very simple and logical... He knows a lot of smarter and more capable people who were born in countries where almost know one succeeds because of poverty, government restrictions, war, etc.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-40137018022471548602017-01-12T10:32:30.042-06:002017-01-12T10:32:30.042-06:00"My "Thanks" is in the form of a he..."My "Thanks" is in the form of a healthy check to the IRS every year."<br /><br />I'm glad you clarified with the quotes, because it your "duty" as a citizen of this country.<br /><br />JoelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-74626816916811692412017-01-12T08:58:55.421-06:002017-01-12T08:58:55.421-06:00Although Joel is correct in that I didn't expl...Although Joel is correct in that I didn't explicitly express my gratitude, it is implied, I think, in my response to being a ward of the state. Two of my siblings and I are firmly in the 30% tax bracket; and all of us would be considered financially successful and well adjusted by most any measure. We pay, and pay dearly into the system that got us out of a jam. <br /><br />My "Thanks" is in the form of a healthy check to the IRS every year ;-)<br /><br />John, while there are certainly wards of the state out there that will take advantage of their gifts to pull themselves out of dependence, I just don't hear or see many. Even the leftist media, which has a stake in proving the welfare state is working, never seem to publish success stories; but yes, I know they are out there.<br /> <br />If someone had asked me my opinion during my 5 year tenure of state dependence I would have acknowledged my stomach was full (hamburger helper...mmmm), I had shelter and clothing thanks to the work of others. I'd have vowed that in return I'd do everything in my power to ensure neither I, nor anyone that depended on me would not only never be a burden again, we would be net contributors.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-61007030180738532382017-01-11T13:37:20.196-06:002017-01-11T13:37:20.196-06:00"Though I agree with Fred that many current r..."Though I agree with Fred that many current recipients rarely show gratitude either. For some reason they believe it is socially acceptable and that they are somehow earning the money / services..."<br /><br />WHERE is the mystery here??? Government tells these folks and labels these expenditures as "entitlements," do they not? What is there to be grateful for, if it is something to which I am entitled? Besides, to WHOM should I be grateful? There is no human handing me that cash or benefit, just some check in the mail or a cold government notice. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-75719889643539818142017-01-11T12:15:47.092-06:002017-01-11T12:15:47.092-06:00From MP Center My last comment is stuck moderation...From <a href="https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-ink/2017/01/there-still-center-can-hold-our-political-spectrum-together?page=1" rel="nofollow">MP Center</a> My last comment is stuck moderation... Surprise...<br /><br />"Nirvana: It would be a wonderful world if :<br /> - Consumers did not demand the best prices / quality /performance<br /> - People spent less, saved more, invested more<br /> - Qualified employees did not demand higher pay / benefits<br /> - Investors did not demand the highest returns<br /> - Businesses weren't constrained in between these 2 groups<br /> - More citizens gave 10% of time / money to charity<br /><br />However we do want to save money on our service and product purchases. And we do want to get a good return on the mutual funds we use to save for college funding, retirement, vacations, etc.<br /><br />So yes we need some forced savings programs like SS, SS Disability, Medicare, Short term welfare, etc. My point is let's not get carried away, and let's strive to push the poor to become qualified, capable, etc. To win the War on Poverty we need to eliminate it, not just hide it." G2A<br /><br />"I think you had a typo there, we all know the conservative way is to punish the poor until they're qualified (for what, I can never tell, pliant cheap labor maybe?), but I've yet to figure out how depriving the poor of resources, be they financial, material, or mental, allows anyone any hope to achieve anything at all, save for hopelessness and destitution." Matt<br /><br />"I am not even sure where to go with this, so let's try.<br /><br />Please remember that people struggle financially when they consistently SPEND as much or more than they EARN. This typically leads to poverty and/or debt for people of all income levels.<br /><br />People on welfare, Medicaid, charity, etc are SPENDING more than they EARN. Since welfare, Medicaid, charity, etc are GIFTS from others made to help them through tough times. The goal during these times should be encourage, train and support the individuals so that they can EARN more and/or SPEND less. Which allows them to become independent and self confident, and frees up those GIFTS so they are available to help others.<br /><br />An unfortunate reality is that while some people are highly motivated to learn, change, work, improve and strive for independence, there are others who do not. I understand since that is hard work and often they think they are right and the world is wrong.<br /><br />Please share your thoughts on how to help nudge these change resistant happily dependent people out of the nest, so the GIFTS can used for others?" G2A<br /><br />Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-90474758599724549292017-01-11T12:11:03.365-06:002017-01-11T12:11:03.365-06:00Joel
Agreed. Something does seem funny here.
Tho...Joel<br />Agreed. Something does seem funny here.<br /><br />Though I agree with Fred that many current recipients rarely show gratitude either. For some reason they believe it is socially acceptable and that they are somehow earning the money / services...<br /><br />By the way, I disagree with Fred that they are irredeemable... Maybe he was channeling Hillary. :-) <br /><br />"Whenever I see "poor people" appear in news stories, complaining about how burdensome welfare rules are, or how unfair it is their kids don't get more subsidies, I realize just how lost they are, and know they and their kids are irredeemable. THAT is the wages of our "compassionate" welfare state."Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-83998305063763874822017-01-11T11:59:06.157-06:002017-01-11T11:59:06.157-06:00"Before you label me a mean spirited bastard,..."Before you label me a mean spirited bastard, consider this."<br /><br />I do notice there seems to be not one iota of gratitude in your story, considering that the American taxpayer helped to keep your family fed.<br /><br />You seem more interested in shaming people than helping them.<br /><br />JoelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-28709547332366881992017-01-11T10:17:44.528-06:002017-01-11T10:17:44.528-06:00Fred, thank you for that personal story. Now let ...Fred, thank you for that personal story. Now let me tell you another. Back during the debate on the '96 welfare reform bill, the Democrats and media (to be redundant) were all over finding supposed "victims" of the still-pending legislation. So NBC found this woman, mother of a little girl, supposedly "scared" that she would not be able to continue working and paying for child care and rent, if her benefits were "cut." Then they made a mistake, going to talk to this "poor woman's" mother. Turns out Grandma lives in a big house close by, all alone. The house is all paid for but Social Security is barely enough to pay the bills. She doesn't see her granddaughter enough, she says. So why on Earth is there a problem here? Daughter and granddaughter move in, help out with the bills, Grandma happily provides free child care and Mom can work! Liberals insist she should have her own place, that she get a "living wage" or not have to work at all (quite frankly, it is all just too phantasmagorical to make sense of). I believe most people still have a work ethic, but so long as government keeps bailing them out they continue to lose it, and hope with it. The welfare industry seems to be "too big to fail" and so it fails even as more money is thrown at it. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-30317351476225347662017-01-11T10:01:39.250-06:002017-01-11T10:01:39.250-06:00You are largely correct. What I was pointing out ...You are largely correct. What I was pointing out is that most of those in "Transitional Housing" are those who are "short term" homeless, usually as a result of domestic abuse, and also those who have committed to getting out of their circumstances. <br /><br />Applying this model to the current welfare population would require a great deal of adjustment. First of all, as you say, 4 months would not be nearly long enough to provide both an attitude adjustment AND marketable skills. I said 5 years should be plenty, but I am not sure even that will be enough for some very few. Those few, however, should never be allowed to prevent us from creating the right policy for all the rest. They will have the opportunity, just like everybody else, and if they refuse, well, maybe there are some unpleasant consequences, just as there are for not following any government law. Likewise, we shouldn't let liberals prevent us from doing the right thing for "the poor" just because THEY, from their lofty perches, think it "unfair" or somesuch. There is nothing fair about stealing my money and giving it to some no-good, ungrateful bum. If these people are valuable, as liberals claim and which conservatives generally believe they are, then HELP them! Don't just warehouse them. That is "government waste" on the grandest of scales.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-64737998910513736102017-01-11T09:12:14.100-06:002017-01-11T09:12:14.100-06:00Once again, I'm directed to consider the effec...Once again, I'm directed to consider the effects of the removal of shame from society. <br /><br />Government has made several changes to welfare programs, not to make them more efficient, but to remove the shame of using them. We have replaced food stamps with debit cards which does increase efficiency and lower costs, but they have gone to great lengths to make them indistinguishable from bank cards. They should have the federal eagle printed on them with WELFARE CARD printed along the border in bright red letters.<br /><br />Before you label me a mean spirited bastard, consider this. <br /><br />I have 4 brothers and sisters; I am the eldest. When I was 9, my father decided we were cramping his style, and he left. In one week, we went from a solid middle class family to wards of the state.<br /><br />My mother collected welfare for 5 years, until my brothers and I were old enough to watch our sisters while she went to work; it was the worst 5 years of my life. I remember the shame of handing over a stack of food stamps at the store, of going to Goodwill for "new" school clothes, of receiving "lunch tickets" at school. I still burn with shame whenever I think of it, and so do my siblings.<br /><br />The result of all that shame is that all of us finished high school, and four of us went to college (my brothers and I joined the military to earn school tuition). We are all successful, none of us ever neglected our families...the thought of abandoning them is an unconscionable horror to us all.<br /><br />Whenever I see "poor people" appear in news stories, complaining about how burdensome welfare rules are, or how unfair it is their kids don't get more subsidies, I realize just how lost they are, and know they and their kids are irredeemable. THAT is the wages of our "compassionate" welfare state.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-66985219094659988422017-01-10T18:56:09.446-06:002017-01-10T18:56:09.446-06:00I am not sure that 4 months and out is enough for ...I am not sure that 4 months and out is enough for many people who have spent ~18 years surrounded by bad influences and have little in the way of marketable knowledge or skills. The other problem is that many people would see pushing welfare recipients into this type of improvement program as demeaning and dehumanizing.<br /><br />They seem to believe that people should be able to live as they wish, be housed in a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment, get free healthcare and get checks until they decide of their own accord to change their lifestyle. Somehow the tax payers owe it to them...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-597860374196781712017-01-10T17:53:50.467-06:002017-01-10T17:53:50.467-06:00Yes, that's the Catholic Charities Transitiona...Yes, that's the Catholic Charities Transitional Housing Program. The rules are no drugs, no booze, and you get all the help we can give you for four months, then you are out. And it is a private (religious, obviously) charity, doing exactly what (individually) needs to be done, and serving those willing to help themselves. If it is anything like other transitional programs I know, it is mostly battered women (and kids) who escaped. <br /><br />So, why can't government do this sort of thing for everybody? The only problem would be those who (unlike the battered wife) lack the motivation or even the /idea/ of motivation, thanks to generational poverty. I'm going to estimate those folks at maybe 20%, but all but a tiny fraction of those could be turned around in, say, a 5-year limitation. At which point all the kids would be in school, at least.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.com