tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post4736298521118123869..comments2024-03-28T10:08:06.291-05:00Comments on Give2Attain: Minnesota: Then and NowJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-72415612986064099292014-09-29T11:51:52.082-05:002014-09-29T11:51:52.082-05:00And your justification doesn't account for pos...And your justification doesn't account for possible changes in the metrics used-- the "dumbing down" of the tests. With or without that, the recent gains in minority achievement don't even begin to justify the doubling of cost. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-79628303387761293622014-09-27T11:53:18.053-05:002014-09-27T11:53:18.053-05:00You have got to be kidding...
They didn't acc...You have got to be kidding...<br /><br />They didn't account for any changes in:<br />- student body demographics<br />- a higher percentage of children in the system<br />- special education mandates<br />- other<br /><br />And according the NCES documents outcomes are improving, especially in the area of minorities and other groups that were historical doing worse.<br /><br />The Heritage folks tried to compare apples and water melons...<br /><br />Maybe you should review the EPI and NCES Long Term trends link. The college board link also explains clearly the huge changes that have occurred.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-76903608582097664882014-09-27T09:38:38.806-05:002014-09-27T09:38:38.806-05:00"After browsing these, I think the Heritage f..."After browsing these, I think the Heritage folks are playing games again."<br /><br />You forgot the "IMHO." I happen to think that facts are facts. And though you can draw your own conclusions however you like, they ought to be supported by the facts. Here it seems pretty conclusive.<br />jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-30458180483425161602014-09-27T09:31:00.081-05:002014-09-27T09:31:00.081-05:00Laurie is partly right. As a percentage of income...Laurie is partly right. As a percentage of income, MN taxes have not increased nearly as outrageously as has state spending, because incomes generally go up over time (unless Obama is in the WH). <br /><br />However, when was the last time you saw tax rates go DOWN as a percent of total income? Sure, total tax collections suffer in times of recession, but politicians never seem to think that the government can "tighten the belt." For example, at the federal level, the "autopilot spending" is so high that a 1% actual reduction in spending (rather than the automatic increase built in) every year for 5 years would balance the budget. In Minnesota, the "Zero based budget" plan never got past the DFL majority. Or, as Reagan said, "Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!"jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-16215864170387963962014-09-27T09:20:59.739-05:002014-09-27T09:20:59.739-05:00"I think your nostalgia tendency is kicking i..."I think your nostalgia tendency is kicking in." How many of today's college graduates spell and write as well as HS graduates of 1950? And have the standards changed? Few of us could pass a math test from 1920.<br /><br />Thank you for all of the links, but please, could you offer an assessment of them? If they support my contention, I don't need to delve into the details.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-86360170285645993272014-09-26T22:45:16.193-05:002014-09-26T22:45:16.193-05:00MN Tax History in Detail
MN Tax History Short Vers...<a href="http://www.revenue.state.mn.us/research_stats/research_reports/2012/2012_handbook_links_2_on_a_page.pdf" rel="nofollow">MN Tax History in Detail</a><br /><a href="http://www.co.sibley.mn.us/assessor/a_brief_history_of_minnesota_taxes.php" rel="nofollow">MN Tax History Short Version</a><br /><br />Apparently we didn't even have a sales tax until 1967...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-35894501018564108262014-09-26T21:15:18.979-05:002014-09-26T21:15:18.979-05:00Laurie,
From what I understand, the POG is kind of...Laurie,<br />From what I understand, the <a href="http://www.commissions.leg.state.mn.us/lcpfp/Meetings/2013/02222013/pogreport-nov12.pdf" rel="nofollow">POG</a> is kind of a funny measure.<br /><br />It would be like saying that you got a 5% raise, therefore your mortgage payment should increase by 5%.<br /><br />Since the benefits and features of government really are somewhat fixed. (ie no new features, performances, etc) The POG cost should be dropping as technology improves efficiency, just like most other services.<br /><br />The 3X measure I calculated adjusted for population and inflation. <br /><br />It is not relative to what people in the state earn or are worth. Do you think government cost should go up just because we earn more?<br /><br />And yes we are funding it some way. I would assume higher property taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, cigarette taxes, income tax rates, fees, etc.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-69372699572685783122014-09-26T20:57:37.667-05:002014-09-26T20:57:37.667-05:00After browsing these, I think the Heritage folks a...After browsing these, I think the Heritage folks are playing games again.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-40096987540958135972014-09-26T20:52:17.055-05:002014-09-26T20:52:17.055-05:00NCES 120 Years of Education<a href="http://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93442.pdf" rel="nofollow">NCES 120 Years of Education</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-34648841310093386962014-09-26T20:49:35.485-05:002014-09-26T20:49:35.485-05:00I think your nostalgia tendency is kicking in.
Col...I think your nostalgia tendency is kicking in.<br /><a href="http://trends.collegeboard.org/education-pays/figures-tables/educational-attainment-over-time-1940-2009" rel="nofollow">College Board Trends</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-4837837561701169802014-09-26T20:46:56.620-05:002014-09-26T20:46:56.620-05:00EPI Education Cost Analysis<a href="http://www.epi.org/publication/books_wheremoneygone/" rel="nofollow">EPI Education Cost Analysis</a><br />Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-22638881835016033812014-09-26T20:37:55.321-05:002014-09-26T20:37:55.321-05:00NCES Long Term Analysis<a href="http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/publications/main2012/pdf/2013456.pdf" rel="nofollow">NCES Long Term Analysis</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-16792428469109437202014-09-26T20:35:48.518-05:002014-09-26T20:35:48.518-05:00NAEP Long Term Analysis<a href="http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/ltt_2012/" rel="nofollow">NAEP Long Term Analysis</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-55554019224492526602014-09-26T20:31:10.645-05:002014-09-26T20:31:10.645-05:00NCES Report Card<a href="http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/publications/main2013/pdf/2014451.pdf" rel="nofollow">NCES Report Card</a> Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-56984281619448116062014-09-26T20:07:52.444-05:002014-09-26T20:07:52.444-05:00Heritage Does Spending More Help<a href="http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/09/does-spending-more-on-education-improve-academic-achievement" rel="nofollow">Heritage Does Spending More Help</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-64487230809421441812014-09-26T18:38:52.698-05:002014-09-26T18:38:52.698-05:00A simple internet search yields:
http://www.herita...A simple internet search yields:<br />http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/09/does-spending-more-on-education-improve-academic-achievement.<br /><br />Lots of other sources saying similar. I like the anecdotal evidence that says you best not publish grammar and spelling errors to senior citizens educated in the 40s and 50s; they'll nail you every time. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-41312462454612947162014-09-26T17:39:25.257-05:002014-09-26T17:39:25.257-05:00I haven't had anything to say on this topic be...I haven't had anything to say on this topic because I am skeptical that spending is 3X higher than it was 50 years ago. Does this imply that our tax rates are 3X higher? <br /><br />I would be curious to see how spending has increased using price of government as the measuring tool. The only price of govt comparisons that I have seen only go back to 1991. If we compare spending from 2014 to 1991 our current POG is lower.<br /><br />About special ed- The largest numbers of kids receiving special education qualify with learning disabilities and behavior disorders. I think these kids were in school 50 years, but were not receiving support. Some of the EBD kids are very costly to educate, especially if they attend a separate EBD facility.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09905073449150541750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-17174497112276781512014-09-26T15:16:30.296-05:002014-09-26T15:16:30.296-05:00"Who paid for their care and nurturing in 196..."Who paid for their care and nurturing in 1964?"<br /><br />Their parents, if they could afford it. But the reality is that before the reforms of the 1960s and 1970s, most kids with special needs didn't go to school at all.Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-81076677944396247152014-09-26T14:39:02.471-05:002014-09-26T14:39:02.471-05:00Finally, since probably 35% of the education budge...Finally, since probably 35% of the education budget goes to special needs kids today. Who paid for their care and nurturing in 1964?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-6862301293920877732014-09-26T14:37:27.541-05:002014-09-26T14:37:27.541-05:00I am indifferent right now as to whether the addit...I am indifferent right now as to whether the additional activities and expenditures were good or bad for the common good. I am just interested in what the gov't does / spends now vs what they did / spent then.<br /><br />As always what is your source regarding this OPINION???<br /><br />"the current generation is less able in history, spelling and grammar, and in many cases math and science,"Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-27936972024421318312014-09-26T14:33:01.830-05:002014-09-26T14:33:01.830-05:00I agree that most business tax incentives are not ...I agree that most business tax incentives are not money for nothing. However sometime Liberals seem to think companies get traditional welfare payments. I am not sure why. I think most of those, if they exist, went to the Green Energy companies in the form of loans. (some of which we did not get back)<br /><br />I was puzzled where the ACA healthcare subsidy, earned income tax credit, child tax credit, etc fit into this discussion. Money for nothing, or incentive to encourage certain behaviors?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-9260754718762129442014-09-26T09:28:02.197-05:002014-09-26T09:28:02.197-05:00I just need to note here that "tax breaks&quo...I just need to note here that "tax breaks" are NOT a form of government spending! Reduced taxation simply allows you to keep more of your money, and spend it on what you want and need, rather than having it forcefully extracted from your wallet and spent on what some politician or bureaucrat thinks is needed.<br /><br />I also believe that any money spent on individual entitlements should NOT be counted as being "for the common good," because the war on poverty is over and poverty won. After some $26 trillion, we have the same percentage of people in poverty as we did before.<br /><br />I don't think you can count the additional spending on public education, either, unless that you can show that the total amount of education delivered, as measured by academic knowledge acquired, has increased proportionally. The fact that the current generation is less able in history, spelling and grammar, and in many cases math and science, would tend to argue against that proposition. Inflation-adjusted spending has at least doubled on a per pupil basis. Has student achievement doubled?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-776394152085024692014-09-25T17:44:47.868-05:002014-09-25T17:44:47.868-05:00We keep getting side tracked...
So did I miss som...We keep getting side tracked...<br /><br />So did I miss something, or this a pretty complete list of what additional value we have gotten for three times the cost?<br /><br />- public education is legally required to spend big bucks on children with special needs.<br /><br />- massive growth in medicaid, medicare, food programs, and other entitlements. Government took the place of family and charities in paying for the care of low income citizens. <br /><br />- more children went further in public K-12 and more went to public institutions of higher learning.<br /><br />- significant increase in regulations, monitoring and enforcement. (ie land, water, air, emissions, spills, safety, etc)<br /><br />It may be enough to justify the additional cost. I just want to make sure I am not missing any other new services or roles. 50 years is a long time.<br /><br />Thoughts?<br /><br />I thought about adding "Light Rail", but they had big transportation expenses back then.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-11699017300393309192014-09-25T14:27:41.570-05:002014-09-25T14:27:41.570-05:00Now I know the government cuts checks to citizens ...Now I know the government cuts checks to citizens for Medicaid, Medicare, Food Stamps, Heating Assistance, ACA subsidies, Housing Assistance, Social Security Retirement, SS Disability, Job Training, etc and absolutely nothing is expected in return.<br /><br />Where does government cut checks to businesses without expecting something in return?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-12562700009461716502014-09-25T11:26:14.068-05:002014-09-25T11:26:14.068-05:00Anon,
Please be more specific.
We all get tax bre...Anon,<br />Please be more specific.<br /><br />We all get tax breaks of one sort or another. The tax code has been morphed to encourage certain behaviors and discourage others.<br /><br />Which money or services are given to businesses for free?<br /><br />Is this something new since 1964 that is driving up the cost of government?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.com