tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post4938290696706006099..comments2024-03-28T10:08:06.291-05:00Comments on Give2Attain: GOP Issues / Belief SurveyJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-27022166476237222562014-03-17T07:55:56.185-05:002014-03-17T07:55:56.185-05:00Exactly right. And asserting that a cold winter i...Exactly right. And asserting that a cold winter in the US is caused by Global Warming is even more of a stretch. At some point, a collection of weather readings IS climate-- local, regional or even global. <br /><br />I just read a piece by a Warmist insisting that the Little Ice Age, previously denied by Warmist Michael Mann and others, was not really a global phenomenon but a matter of "regional" climate changes affecting mostly the Northern hemisphere. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-28734306959173817502014-03-17T05:55:29.252-05:002014-03-17T05:55:29.252-05:00Because I have evaluated their theories and know a...<br />Because I have evaluated their theories and know as a matter of pure science they are pure kaka<br /><br />I just don't have confidence in the notions that because it's cold in the wintertime Minneapolis and hot in the summertime says much of anything about global climate change.<br /><br />--HiramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-53090992894192817222014-03-16T13:07:53.643-05:002014-03-16T13:07:53.643-05:00The $70 trillion (by the way, neither of those num...The $70 trillion (by the way, neither of those numbers are my estimates, they are "official," from the scientist/economists studying the problem) would be spent on technologies to control CO2 and to replace fossil fuels with vastly more expensive energy, thus keeping the poor, poor. It's atrocious public policy from a humanity standpoint. I don't know how the $7 trillion would be spent, but I am guessing it would be things like building coal-fired power plants so people could cook meals, refrigerate food, and have a place to work-- economic development. And a wealthier society would be better able to adapt to the effects of global warming if it WERE to occur, in essence a "preventive" measure in itself. <br /><br />Here is the other thing most don't consider. To Prevent CAGW requires that its cause, magnitude and mechanism be fully known and understood, and the preventive action must be known to directly address those things. However, if we choose to adapt, it does not matter why, where, how much or even IF global warming occurs. Considering the unknowns that you yourself acknowledge, doesn't that sound like the wiser course, especially at the much lower cost?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-20039598491791987262014-03-16T12:24:26.601-05:002014-03-16T12:24:26.601-05:00That $70 trillion will be spent on jobs, technolog...That $70 trillion will be spent on jobs, technologies, etc... These actions grow economies and feed people. It isn't putting $70 Trillion into a hole somewhere?<br /><br />Based on your own views, that $7 trillion would not eliminate world poverty... Unless you have decided welfare is a way to eliminate world poverty all of a sudden. Besides who is going to pay out the $7 trillion.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-31426059262731485302014-03-16T11:32:28.173-05:002014-03-16T11:32:28.173-05:00"Of course if they are correct, a lot of huma..."Of course if they are correct, a lot of humans are going to die."<br /><br />And if we believe they are right, and act on it, a lot MORE humans are going to die. Again, estimates are that "preventing" CAGW will cost $70 Trillion, but that we could eliminate global poverty for about $7 Trillion. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-87656162897765010482014-03-16T11:27:37.248-05:002014-03-16T11:27:37.248-05:00"What in your worldview makes you SO resistan..."What in your worldview makes you SO resistant to their theories?"<br /><br />Because I have evaluated their theories and know as a matter of pure science they are pure kaka. It's not a matter of worldview. I know enough science and have looked at the case made by both sides enough to realize that the facts are on the side of the skeptics. I have read enough to recognize that the science in support of CAGW theory AT BEST proves that they are wrong about their policy prescription, and generally speaking does not offer anything approaching the level of proof required to suggest a radical change to our global economy.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-1455337342656481302014-03-16T11:19:51.539-05:002014-03-16T11:19:51.539-05:00I'm sorry I brought worldview into the convers...I'm sorry I brought worldview into the conversation, because I keep hearing it used as a way to deny the truth or even to contradict scientific fact. It's not. It's an idea, confirmed by experience, about how one finds Truth, and to some degree what some of those truths are, like the nature of human nature. Granted, science is not always conclusive, and the great leaps in science are generally made by skeptics, but it is the skeptics seeing both sides of the debate, not the True Believers (like the climate change crowd).jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-70489657385893746502014-03-15T20:22:02.657-05:002014-03-15T20:22:02.657-05:00To answer your question, we really heavily on our ...To answer your question, we really heavily on our worldview to make snap decisions regarding issues of low to average importance. That's efficient and great.<br /><br />Now on something important, do you really want scientists ignoring facts and data because they don't align with that scientist's worldview? How confident would you be that they had arrived at the "facts and data" based reality or hypothesis?<br /><br />I guess I am always evaluating and broadening my worldview... Hopefully some day I will be wise.<br />Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-16207034278101438522014-03-15T20:13:19.865-05:002014-03-15T20:13:19.865-05:00I have no problem being a skeptic regarding Catast...I have no problem being a skeptic regarding Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (CAGW), that doesn't mean I believe they are wrong.<br /><br />Of course if they are correct, a lot of humans are going to die. So I think it is worth keeping an open mind. And taking "low pain" steps to reduce the risks if possible.<br /><br />What I am not going to do is say they are wrong. Personally I don't think there is enough data on either side of the argument to conclusively determine the potential impact and/or severity.<br /><br />What in your worldview makes you SO resistant to their theories?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-42065378678841213272014-03-15T20:04:33.445-05:002014-03-15T20:04:33.445-05:00My favorite saying from my Adult Psychology Profes...My favorite saying from my Adult Psychology Professor is that "not all old people are wise".<br /><br />And don't forget this favorite of mine...<br /><br /><a href="http://truecenterpublishing.com/zenstory/emptycup.html" rel="nofollow">A university professor went to visit a famous Zen master. While the master quietly served tea, the professor talked about Zen. The master poured the visitor's cup to the brim, and then kept pouring. The professor watched the overflowing cup until he could no longer restrain himself. "It's full! No more will go in!" the professor blurted. "This is you," the master replied, "How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup."</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-62801167080166494482014-03-15T18:20:30.749-05:002014-03-15T18:20:30.749-05:00"The worldview has a lot of power to enable d..."The worldview has a lot of power to enable deception, since it skews the facts we notice or believe are relevant, it skews how we weight the facts, it skews our view of causation, etc." <br /><br />So, are you suggesting that the sum total of our experience should have no weight in determining how we perceive reality, what is important or even what is "factual"?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-28430630164073355732014-03-15T18:17:08.791-05:002014-03-15T18:17:08.791-05:00One of the fascinating things here is how the burd...One of the fascinating things here is how the burden of proof has been shifted from those who have a religious belief (in global warming) and urge a radical change, to those who simply believe there is insufficient scientific evidence to alter the status quo. And then the "prophets" suppress the skeptical viewpoint. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-33255499548769901202014-03-15T18:07:25.987-05:002014-03-15T18:07:25.987-05:00The worldview has a lot of power to enable decepti...The worldview has a lot of power to enable deception, since it skews the facts we notice or believe are relevant, it skews how we weight the facts, it skews our view of causation, etc.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-89126074137798306092014-03-15T17:58:04.225-05:002014-03-15T17:58:04.225-05:00Self Deception occurs often because of one's w...Self Deception occurs often because of one's worldview. And one's worldview is usually created by the accumulation of one's life experiences. And one's life experiences are usually generated by pure luck of when, where and to whom you were born and raised.<br /><br />As we have discussed before... Would Jerry be the same Conservative, American Loving, Christian, Pro-business, Anti Big Govt, Anti-Welfare, etc person if he had been born and raised in say a:<br />- Taliban village<br />- Beijing China<br />- Small town in France<br />- Somalia<br /><br />The denial that one's "worldview" could be incorrect, definitely can negatively impact the quality of their analysis.<br />Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-53864283261398346082014-03-15T17:37:59.358-05:002014-03-15T17:37:59.358-05:00I thought it historically has been the change resi...I thought it historically has been the change resistant status quo faction (ie deniers) that has put the paradigm challengers to death.<br /><br />I mean there are many powerful and wealthy deniers that have a lot vested in the status quo beliefs.<br /><br />As for God's creation: "The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it." I don't know if "work it and keep it" meant "use up it's natural resources and pollute it".Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-27916982965973186942014-03-15T16:54:08.466-05:002014-03-15T16:54:08.466-05:00Oh, and wasn't Copernicus put to death for his...Oh, and wasn't Copernicus put to death for his scientific belief? Much the same as the climate zealots have proposed for "deniers"?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-77222040369675878892014-03-15T16:49:08.636-05:002014-03-15T16:49:08.636-05:00I think you are confusing worldview-- a notion of ...I think you are confusing worldview-- a notion of how the world really works and opinion about how -- with how one processes information and determines the veracity of facts.<br />Worldview Definition<br />dictionary.search.yahoo.com<br />n. noun: The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.<br /> A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.<br /><br />For example, if one's view of life is that we are to make our own way, we are going to look askance at the notion that the world somehow owes us all a living, because we don't believe that is a good way for humans to live, though we may concede it is human nature to be lazy if they can.<br /><br />The debate over climate change can be viewed in a similar way, but shouldn't be. I have heard it said it is an act of hubris to assume that measly humans can destroy God's Creation of the Earth. That's a worldview talking. But the scientific evidence-- raw facts-- can prove it. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-53292846744477686252014-03-15T10:34:43.314-05:002014-03-15T10:34:43.314-05:00Excellent comment !!!
This concept should apply v...Excellent comment !!!<br /><br />This concept should apply very well to the climate change discussion. My perspective is that there are a lot of facts regarding the climate, its history, changes, etc.<br /><br />And a lot of theories regarding causation, possible consequences, etc. Yet both sides keep trying to claim these are theories are facts...<br /><br />I wonder how much debate and strife there was regarding NM when he first introduced it... Or when the scientists first started to believe that the earth actually revolved around the sun.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-50023044156404475222014-03-15T09:06:04.255-05:002014-03-15T09:06:04.255-05:00Well, in terms of pros and cons, I think it's ...Well, in terms of pros and cons, I think it's a good idea to look at the facts before forming an opinion. And it's always a good idea to look at facts independently of any opinions one has already formed.<br /><br />I think of this in terms of Newtonian Mechanics. NM worked just fine for hundreds of years. For many purposes, it works just fine today, as evidenced that apples, when they come loose, always fall from trees. But as we learned more about the physics of the world, it became clear that NM did not work in all circumstances, that discrepancies in facts and evidence were appearing that NM could not account for, and it was necessary to develop additional theories, like the Theory of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics to explain or at least account for what experimenters were seeing.<br /><br />Was NM disproven as a world view? It depends on how you define it, but I have never thought it interesting to think so. What I choose to think instead, is that it has been limited, and supplemented but that it still tells me quite reliably not to sit under trees containing ripe apples if I don't wish to be hit on the head.<br /><br />==HiramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-5735422953524692842014-03-15T08:36:06.431-05:002014-03-15T08:36:06.431-05:00An analysis of an issue would be very suspect if o...An analysis of an issue would be very suspect if one only considers the pros, and ignores the cons of their personal position. And conversely emphasizes the cons, and ignores the pros of the opposing position.<br /><br />I think that is the opposite of self awareness. (ie self deception) This is pretty typical, and the reason G2A exists.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-15812895308923730422014-03-15T08:21:04.911-05:002014-03-15T08:21:04.911-05:00"weighing the evidence" and "consid... "weighing the evidence" and "considering the facts" as our worldview considers their veracity.<br /><br />World view has nothing at all to dc with evidence, how it should be weighed or whether something is a fact. A rock is a rock no matter how I look at it, and it's weight is measured by a scale, not by how I feel about it.<br /><br />--HiramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-83958647572444947612014-03-15T07:27:11.865-05:002014-03-15T07:27:11.865-05:00I don't understand "making a list of pros...I don't understand "making a list of pros and cons." I suppose most of us do something like that, subconsciously, but I think it is more a matter of "weighing the evidence" and "considering the facts" as our worldview considers their veracity. I don't think there are that many issues, either, in which there is a wide range of proper actions-- quite often it is "yes or no." There is a right answer and a wrong answer, and the compromise between the two is at best half-right. Whether we have enough facts to deduce that right answer is another matter, but you can suspect the right answer, in most cases, while you gather more information. But you should, at some point, decide one way or the other. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-87488588732658516812014-03-15T07:19:15.319-05:002014-03-15T07:19:15.319-05:00I think some statements are being conflated here. ...I think some statements are being conflated here. Obama was critical of raising the debt ceiling, but that was at a time when President Bush was using debt to lower taxes in 2006. In a prospering economy which we had at that time, he thought that was a bad idea, something with which I agree. The comments about patriotism were made in the heat of the 2008 campaign, and weren't specifically related to the raising of the debt ceiling. The logic of that argument is based on the notion that maintaining high debt levels, much of which is held by foreigners, gives those foreigners undue influence over American policy, and hence is unpatriotic. I happen to disagree with both the premise and conclusion of that argument, but many people do believe that argument, and some of them have gone so far as to call President Obama unpatriotic or to use similar terms with respect to those policies.<br /><br />--HiramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-22543033979343942622014-03-14T23:28:29.740-05:002014-03-14T23:28:29.740-05:00If Obama was against deficit spending and increasi...If Obama was against deficit spending and increasing the national debt in 2008. And he said it was unpatriotic.<br /><br />Then he definitely has adjusted his view... Or he was just misleading the people he was speaking to. Or he is very unpatriotic.<br /><br /><a href="http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/ED-AQ650_1budge_NS_20130410174803.jpg" rel="nofollow">National Debt as % of GDP</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-19493259399901816642014-03-14T21:11:37.457-05:002014-03-14T21:11:37.457-05:00I think politicians who don't respond to chang...I think politicians who don't respond to changing circumstances or who learn from experience are a threat to the republic. But I do have to admit, I did think Mitt Romney's willingness to change what many of us think of as deeply important , in ways that curiously always seemed politically convenient, did suggest to me, a character flaw. I don't think tha about phony issues such as the debt ceiling. The republicans who routinely voted for debt ceiling increases in the Bush and who are nominally voting against them now aren't showing bad character, they are just grandstanding a bit as Obama wa. Not nice, maybe, but politics as usual. <br /><br />--HiramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com