tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post6446469181405625776..comments2024-03-28T10:08:06.291-05:00Comments on Give2Attain: MN Education StuffJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-36996672214502291782013-03-17T20:19:51.492-05:002013-03-17T20:19:51.492-05:00I think you have finally found a way in which the ...I think you have finally found a way in which the distinction between "lucky" and "unlucky" kids makes sense. I have said it in a different way, in that schools with a more "challenging" mix of students need to adopt different techniques for teaching, and still may be unable to overcome all of the obstacles to learning these kids have. Right now, however, I am firmly convinced that the vast majority of such schools – principally those in inner cities or inner ring suburbs – do NOT use effective teaching methods, or have an effective discipline policy, or set high expectations, all of which would be necessary to improve results. Instead what we have are the schools making excuses, demanding more money to do the jobs they claim to be uniquely qualified to do, and continuing to fail in the same old ways, year after year.<br /><br />What is particularly galling is when race is used as a proxy for deciding which kids are unlucky, and then not doing anything about it! That is, if all we do is mix the kids according to skin color and then fail to adjust our teaching techniques, expectations and discipline policy, we fail ALL the kids and spend more money doing it.<br /><br />J. EwingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-77343491012633620462013-03-14T22:32:35.302-05:002013-03-14T22:32:35.302-05:00The big challenge with using integration of Lucky ...The big challenge with using integration of Lucky and Unlucky students to improve test scores significantly is that the percentage of "Unlucky" kids in the school seems to need to be in the <30% range to make a big difference.<br /><a href="http://give2attain.blogspot.com/2010/07/results-comparison.html" rel="nofollow">G2A Results: A Comparison</a><br /><a href="http://give2attain.blogspot.com/2010/07/comparison-just-one-more.html" rel="nofollow">G2A Comparison:Just One More</a><br /><br />My rationale is that they need to be a small enough group that "good" peer pressure works, there are enough volunteers and donors to help them, class discipline is workable, etc...<br /><br />Imagine the challenge when a school has majority of Unlucky kids... Peer pressure is likely to support goofing off rather than learning. There are likely few volunteers and donors to help. (ie no time, no money, or don't care) Instead of dealing with a couple challenging kids in class, you may be dealing with 20 of them...<br /><br />Of course there was this interesting idea I proposed awhile back... <a href="http://give2attain.blogspot.com/2012/01/ras-2-7-school-model.html" rel="nofollow">G2A RAS 2/7 Model</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-49329013298936003042013-03-14T21:00:35.404-05:002013-03-14T21:00:35.404-05:00According to Table of Contents, see pages 77-80 in...According to Table of Contents, see pages 77-80 in this document for integration info. <a href="http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/mnschfin.pdf" rel="nofollow">MN School Finance Guide</a><br /><br />And this goes further.<br /><a href="http://education.state.mn.us/MDE/SchSup/SchFin/Integ/index.html" rel="nofollow">MN DOE Integration Page</a><br /><br />I can see how Integration funding is important and similar to vouchers, however tying this gap issue to "Race" just makes me angry. Race is not the cause.<br /><a href="http://give2attain.blogspot.com/2012/01/correlation-does-not-imply-causation.html" rel="nofollow">G2A Cause vs Correlation</a><br /><a href="http://give2attain.blogspot.com/2010/07/poor-kids-stupid-or-unlucky.html" rel="nofollow">G2A Poor Kids Stupid or Unlucky</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-59301270115482076592013-03-14T20:45:57.423-05:002013-03-14T20:45:57.423-05:00Sorry Annie,
I have been distracted this week and ...Sorry Annie,<br />I have been distracted this week and derelict in my duties... J's linked article says that some "Liberal Education group" disagrees with the validity of a document published by some "Conservative Education group". <a href="http://www.americanexperiment.org/publications/commentaries/in-response-to-ugly-progressive-hokum?utm_source=3-8+Mitch+Bunkum+Response2&utm_campaign=Mitch+Bunkum+response&utm_medium=email" rel="nofollow">American Experiment Hokum Award</a><br /><br />The document in question says that "the Minnesota Department of Education and three influential education policy organizations are promoting learning gap-related plans that would focus—not on vital reforms in the classroom—but on making “racially balanced schools” (mislabeled “integration”) the centerpiece of our efforts to reduce the gap." <br /><br />And that this will "pave the way for a plaintiff victory in an “education adequacy” lawsuit against the State of Minnesota. Two prominent attorneys have already raised the threat of such a suit against the State.<br /><br />In an education adequacy lawsuit, plaintiffs will portray the learning gap as evidence that Minnesota is failing to offer the state’s children a constitutionally mandated “adequate” education. As a remedy, they will likely seek: 1) billions of dollars in additional K-12 funding and 2) a metro-wide, race-based busing plan—and insist these are necessary to “close the gap.”"<br /><a href="http://www.americanexperiment.org/publications/reports-books/our-immense-achievement-gap-executive-summary" rel="nofollow">AE Our Immense Achievement Gap Exec Summary</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-77154635638835694192013-03-14T20:05:18.049-05:002013-03-14T20:05:18.049-05:00J.Ewing--did you really just use the term "ra...J.Ewing--did you really just use the term "race-mixing"??<br /><br />John--The education budget is so complex that I've never entirely understood how the integration funding is used. I gather a great deal of it is allocated to things like The Choice is Yours program, where a motivated NoMi family can enroll their child in higher-quality suburban districts. That feels an awfully lot like vouchers to me, so it seems like many conservatives would dig it. <br /><br />I read through the Center for the American Experiment link that J provided, and I'm not seeing anything at all about the Minnesota integration budget (let alone the "best and only solution" bit. ). Not sure how a Colorado lawsuit has to do with the subject at hand? <br /><br />--Annie<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-52455857527817308592013-03-14T17:47:04.447-05:002013-03-14T17:47:04.447-05:00Sorry, but you will have to read through the link ...Sorry, but you will have to read through the link I provided to pick that up. I can point out that those "factors" are yours, not the ones that the educrats are using as excuses. <br /><br />J. EwingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-12132819987889758542013-03-14T14:35:00.743-05:002013-03-14T14:35:00.743-05:00I guess I never heard anyone saying that "rac...I guess I never heard anyone saying that "race-mixing is the best and only solution needed to fix the achievement gap." Where did you pull that from?<br /><br />We had come up with lots of factors previously...<br /><a href="http://give2attain.blogspot.com/2011/12/blame-vs-contributions.html" rel="nofollow">G2A Blame vs Contributions</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-41191355811917298872013-03-13T21:29:33.453-05:002013-03-13T21:29:33.453-05:00At least that's halfway honest. What is NOT h...At least that's halfway honest. What is NOT honest is the claim that race-mixing is the best and only solution needed to fix the achievement gap. But of course nobody wants to take "student achievement improvement funding" because that might require them to actually deliver results.<br /><br />J. EwingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-89613380258417372662013-03-13T11:37:36.724-05:002013-03-13T11:37:36.724-05:00Since the funding in question is called "inte...Since the funding in question is called "integration funding", it seems that is what it would be used for...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-85577243794234299132013-03-13T10:28:47.906-05:002013-03-13T10:28:47.906-05:00Is that what the money is for? Integrating schools...Is that what the money is for? Integrating schools?<br /><br />--HiramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-83275231826068859992013-03-13T10:07:55.203-05:002013-03-13T10:07:55.203-05:00Let me put it this way. If the schools knew how t...Let me put it this way. If the schools knew how to erase the achievement gap, or basically how to improve achievement for the 50% that can't even graduate, they would have done it years ago. They don't, so they keep making excuses, and it's criminal. <br /><br />J. EwingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-73016771109037837292013-03-12T22:36:53.481-05:002013-03-12T22:36:53.481-05:00Why should I believe the public schools are seriou...Why should I believe the public schools are serious about closing the achievement gap if unwritten and unchallenged Social Promotion policy always overrides attempts to close it?R-Fivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02481212430293579024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-61947063627763227892013-03-12T12:43:07.170-05:002013-03-12T12:43:07.170-05:00They are posed as questions not for you, but for t...They are posed as questions not for you, but for the idiots who seem to believe not only the premise but the reality. If you look at the link, you will find that the usual suspects are busily insisting upon vast new sums for integration, and claiming that this will magically erase the achievement gap. The question is intended to point to the utter folly of the argument and the action.<br /><br />J. EwingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-33709685360419238122013-03-12T08:37:16.133-05:002013-03-12T08:37:16.133-05:00Absolutely not. I find the idea highly offensive, ...Absolutely not. I find the idea highly offensive, racist and stupid.<br /><br />Neither do I, and that's why I didn't have much interest in the premise of your question, since I and it turns out, you both disagree with it. As it turns out, your question is sort of like asking, "If the Earth if flat, at some point would you fall off the edge?" I just don't know how to answer questions like that.<br /><br />--Hiram Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-4885710003051621972013-03-11T17:31:28.559-05:002013-03-11T17:31:28.559-05:00Absolutely not. I find the idea highly offensive, ...Absolutely not. I find the idea highly offensive, racist and stupid. Yet that is the straw being grasped by our floundering public education system. They are spending billions of dollars already, and propose to spend billions of dollars more on integration, and claiming that this is the magic been that Willie race the achievement gap between white and black students. Apparently they believe black students only learn by osmosis from their white classmates, rather than by what the teacher provides. <br /><br />J. EwingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-30403797400649563732013-03-11T12:53:52.935-05:002013-03-11T12:53:52.935-05:00 If black kids can only learn by sitting in a clas... If black kids can only learn by sitting in a class with white kids, then what difference does it make whether 70% of the class is white or 50%? <br /><br />Do you really think that black kids can only learn by sitting in a class with white kids?<br /><br />--HiramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-51817477445865288252013-03-10T12:05:43.738-05:002013-03-10T12:05:43.738-05:00I have a question. If black kids can only learn b...I have a question. If black kids can only learn by sitting in a class with white kids, then what difference does it make whether 70% of the class is white or 50%? And why are we proposing billions of dollars to do something that doesn't improve academic outcomes one bit?<br /><br />http://www.americanexperiment.org/publications/commentaries/in-response-to-ugly-progressive-hokum?utm_source=3-8+Mitch+Bunkum+Response2&utm_campaign=Mitch+Bunkum+response&utm_medium=email<br /><br />J. EwingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com