tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post7277495256034388594..comments2024-03-28T10:08:06.291-05:00Comments on Give2Attain: Iowa to Control Unions?Johnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-20351503150634558912017-02-19T10:47:36.941-06:002017-02-19T10:47:36.941-06:00Oh, and the #1 factor in student achievement, foun...Oh, and the #1 factor in student achievement, found in all studies, is a "good teacher" or "teacher effectiveness." That's why in Mississippi we [used to, before federal intervention] put the best teachers in front of the students furthest "behind."jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-66037931246057804202017-02-19T10:45:10.258-06:002017-02-19T10:45:10.258-06:00I am perfectly happy with teaching to the test. A...I am perfectly happy with teaching to the test. At least the kids are learning SOMETHING. If that's not enough, then the test should be increased in scope. We should not accept subjective "measures" of academic achievement. I would accept some small portion of teacher incentive pay being based on subjective measures like parent or student satisfaction.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-60052509729213819702017-02-19T10:05:35.738-06:002017-02-19T10:05:35.738-06:00It's basically a question of teaching to the t...It's basically a question of teaching to the test. That's always the concern with incentives.<br /><br />--HiramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-55847136234828371792017-02-17T16:55:08.891-06:002017-02-17T16:55:08.891-06:00Public schools CAN improve:
“INCENTIVES MATTER IN...Public schools CAN improve:<br /><br />“INCENTIVES MATTER IN EDUCATION”<br />A new study was recently released that shows that by “rewarding the best teachers they are also improving student learning.” These are just some of the findings in a report from Stanford University economic researcher Barbara Biasi who examined the first five years of results after the enactment of Governor Scott Walker’s collective-bargaining reforms, commonly referred to as Act 10.<br /> <br />Under Governor Walker’s trail-blazing public education reforms, school districts can create a marketplace for better and more effective employees. These “high-value added” teachers are sought after by school districts who seek to improve student learning by putting the most qualified teacher in each classroom. School districts are also allowed to “cap” the salaries of low-performing teachers in that district. These reforms also allow districts to abandon the union-imposed “step and lane” salary schedules that reward teachers on the basis of length of service rather than their classroom effectiveness.<br /> <br />The most impressive finding reported in the new study, however, is buried deep inside the report. Ms. Biasi found that “student math achievement rose significantly in individual-salary districts relative to salary-schedule districts due in part to improvements in the teacher workforce.” What a wonderful notion: kids achieve better test scores with teachers who have a proven track record in helping kids learn. Oh, and the teachers who help these students learn are paid more than their average peers. <br /> <br />The lessons from Wisconsin could be replicated in Minnesota but our governor has repeatedly rejected any changes in teacher tenure laws that would reward highly effective teachers and guarantee that every student has a great (and highly effective) teacher in their classroom. The Wall Street Journal recently commented on that “Act 10 may be the most successful public-policy achievement since welfare reform” and attribute most of its success to the leadership of Governor Scott Walker, saying that “Act 10 let schools pay better teachers more, and learning increased.” <br />jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-72977200691378923512017-02-17T16:53:42.102-06:002017-02-17T16:53:42.102-06:00It also speaks to the fact that these alternatives...It also speaks to the fact that these alternatives, regardless of apparent performance and difficulty of "entry" (i.e. they aren't next door) are ALSO full. And the publics ARE losing "customers" at a worrisome (to the public schools) rate. I think the obvious conclusion is that almost everyone who could "escape" given the REAL opportunity would do so. <br /><br />And you keep pointing out all the potential pitfalls of these "alternative schools," but the present system represents no alternative at all-- it is not a choice, and certainly not a desirable choice, for the vast majority trapped in those schools. By all means, make the alternatives better if you can (and competition would generally see to that), but at least give these kids a chance. Something you missed was the "school within a school" concept, which I think would be great. The school admin "contracts out" to a private entity for instructional (admin and other) services within the current building. Offers a quick and "seamless" transition.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-11023138498964992692017-02-17T10:12:56.583-06:002017-02-17T10:12:56.583-06:00A good example of your last promise are Magnets, C...A good example of your last promise are Magnets, Charters and Open Enrollment in MN. The Urban parts of the Twin Cities have many many of these and yet the traditional schools are still full. That maybe speaks to how many would change schools for big promises.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-73890935293469035222017-02-17T10:08:28.344-06:002017-02-17T10:08:28.344-06:00I know it is pointless to bring up the obvious fla...<br />I know it is pointless to bring up the obvious flaws to your last comment, but I will try.<br /><br />"every kid gets the voucher, and every school gets to accept that voucher AND to "contract" with parents for results."<br /><br />Apparently schools get to cherry pick their students?<br /><br /><br />"the parent being offered the choice of getting the kid in line, or having to take him to a more expensive school that will put up with him."<br /><br />What will you do with kids who's parent can not afford those "more expensive" schools? What will you do with Parent's who fail to fulfill this social obligation?<br /><br />"a school which fails to deliver an education loses "customers" to the competition."<br /><br />Companies fail often. They take the money, scrimp on the education, claim bankruptcy and leave customers high and dry. How will this be different?<br /><br />"Promise them that the school will be "safer," with a better discipline policy and that the "education" will be better "<br /><br />Promise are cheap. If the same student body relocates to a new school... I am unsure how this miracle will occur. Who will bear the burden if the promises are not met? Will it be with jail time or some other serious consequence? Or do they get to take the money and go bankrupt?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-60859273549646231482017-02-17T08:12:43.227-06:002017-02-17T08:12:43.227-06:00I'm not "blaming" the schools 100%, ...I'm not "blaming" the schools 100%, I'm suggesting that schools must be 100% of the solution. You have already pointed to that solution. Simply reverse the current system of government mandates-- that kids must attend school, teachers must be unionized, schools must be public entities, etc.-- with one based on freedom and choice. That is, every kid gets the voucher, and every school gets to accept that voucher AND to "contract" with parents for results. A kid who misbehaves repeatedly will eventually end up with the parent being offered the choice of getting the kid in line, or having to take him to a more expensive school that will put up with him. And a school which fails to deliver an education loses "customers" to the competition. <br /><br />I propose a simple thought experiment. Pick one of these schools with 50% "unlucky kids" by your definition, or a "failing school" by mine. Now, offer every parent the opportunity to send their kids to a different school, a block down the street, for "free" just like the public school. Promise them that the school will be "safer," with a better discipline policy and that the "education" will be better and if not, they can come back. What percentage do you believe would move to that school initially? More than 50%, or less?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-50519370922674101302017-02-16T17:10:15.763-06:002017-02-16T17:10:15.763-06:00It is too bad the Unions fight change and improvem...It is too bad the Unions fight change and improvement SO HARD... Maybe this whole topic would be a non-issue.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-31013822562091672432017-02-16T17:08:11.276-06:002017-02-16T17:08:11.276-06:00You can keep applying 100% of the blame to the sch...You can keep applying 100% of the blame to the school system all day long and it won't <a href="http://give2attain.blogspot.com/2011/12/blame-vs-contributions.html" rel="nofollow">make it anymore real</a>. :-)<br /><br />And there is that annoying fact that the charters etc don't <a href="http://blog.centerforpubliceducation.org/2017/01/27/7-reasons-why-school-choice-%E2%89%A0-school-reform/" rel="nofollow">seem to do any better</a>...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-168694704684706872017-02-16T15:26:47.111-06:002017-02-16T15:26:47.111-06:00What is the premise of public education? It is th...What is the premise of public education? It is that a "uniform system of public instruction" will provide equal opportunity for all to access the benefits and responsibilities of society, and should be provided by the government to insure that it takes place--i.e. not left to the constraints of individual resources. Where in the rules, regulations and legitimate expectations of the schools does it say that if you are a poor black kid, you get a junk education? And no, you cannot look for something better because we will not pay for it. If our kids are 27th out of 36 nations in international tests, how is that not damaging them? <br /><br />I think the auto analogy is apt simply because of the promises inherent in the product. When GM sells you a car, you have reasonable expectations, whether stated or not, that it will not fall apart and kill you. If it DOES, why should YOU be the one "held accountable"? You are the injured party (and dead). Parents do not /willingly/ "buy" an education for their kid. It is a monopoly-- no choices-- and the kids are forced to attend. Where in there is there any responsibility of the parents for some sort of choice in the matter?<br /><br />Now, if you want to hold parents "accountable" for their kids education beyond forced attendance, then you have to give them choices and the means to make those choices. Otherwise you are just punishing them, on top of the punishment you wreak upon their children. Two sticks, no carrots.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-11591640683806890502017-02-16T14:10:51.257-06:002017-02-16T14:10:51.257-06:00You are persistent to say the least...
"a mo...You are persistent to say the least...<br /><br />"a monopoly be allowed to damage all children"<br /><br />That strange belief that it is totally the school systems fault...<br /><br />That strange belief that Baby Makers are blameless and should not be held accountable.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-21545326129458519172017-02-16T14:09:07.639-06:002017-02-16T14:09:07.639-06:00The GM comparison is interesting though... Trying...The GM comparison is interesting though... Trying to compare a manufacturing company that has very strict requirements regarding the incoming materials...<br /><br />To a Public school that has ZERO control over the children that show up at their door, how long they are in the school, how dedicated they are, etc.<br /><br />Seems like apples and squash to me...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-23280547775578618922017-02-16T12:12:26.672-06:002017-02-16T12:12:26.672-06:00"...As more and more of the Lucky kids leave ..."...As more and more of the Lucky kids leave for greener pastures. This is how urban and school decay happens,..."<br /><br />Yes! So your solution is to DENY the lucky kids that opportunity, and then deny the unlucky ones that same opportunity? Unbelievable! jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-40460310132071562092017-02-16T12:08:25.554-06:002017-02-16T12:08:25.554-06:00Of course you are correct. So why should those ki...Of course you are correct. So why should those kids who might be MORE proficient somewhere else be denied the opportunity to do so? And why should the students who are NOT proficient not be offered that same opportunity? If the schools could do better, than is the fact they are NOT doing better the fault of the parents, or of the school? Why should a monopoly be allowed to damage all children, rather than permit competition to improve price and quality as it has in almost all other "businesses"? <br /><br />If General Motors was producing unsafe cars, would the fact that 50% of the owners were NOT killed in an accident be considered good enough? Especially if that car was the ONLY one you were allowed to buy?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-90338271926826994402017-02-16T10:17:30.529-06:002017-02-16T10:17:30.529-06:00Please remember that even though half the kids in ...Please remember that even though half the kids in Mpls are not proficient... Half are doing fine in the same schools. That gives you a good idea how many Baby Maker(s) vs Parent(s) there are in the district.<br /><br /><a href="http://rc.education.state.mn.us/#testResults/orgId--30001000000__groupType--district__test--allAccount__subject--M__year--trend__grade--all__p--1" rel="nofollow">MN DOE Report Card</a><br /><br />Now can the district improve some... Of course... But will the academic achievement gap be eliminated as long as Baby Maker(s) and poor neighborhoods are around... Probably not...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-68913386352804682192017-02-16T10:08:38.834-06:002017-02-16T10:08:38.834-06:00Of course it matters who their Parents are, there ...Of course it matters who their Parents are, there are many successful kids within the schools that you label as failing.<br /><br />Of course it is much harder for the children and Teachers as the proportion of the students in the classroom who are behind in their development and disruptive becomes larger over time. As more and more of the Lucky kids leave for greener pastures.<br /><br />This is how urban and school decay happens, the good people stop fighting for their community/ schools and leave. And the old community and it's schools suffer.<br /><br />And yes there are Unlucky kids in excellent schools like Wayzata. But the proportion is small enough that all those Lucky kids and their Parents can provide positive peer pressure and extra support. And having 3 of them in a 30 student classroom is much less challenging than having 15 of them...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-20334472242565929982017-02-16T09:21:09.832-06:002017-02-16T09:21:09.832-06:00So then how can you determine that it is the paren...So then how can you determine that it is the parents of unlucky kids causing schools to fail? It would seem that every failing school must be 100% unlucky kids, by your definition, and every relatively successful school is 100% "lucky." It's simply not possible to sustain your definitions. The ONLY way to sort this out without blaming parents and letting schools off the hook in this polarized (by your definition) environment, is to give EVERY kid the opportunity to "escape" a failing school. Assuming that opportunity is real, those that choose to stay there are indeed unlucky, and it won't matter who their parents are.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-3586521866298148212017-02-16T09:03:01.594-06:002017-02-16T09:03:01.594-06:00Actually my definition of lucky / unlucky kids has...Actually my definition of lucky / unlucky kids has nothing to do with which school they attend, and everything to do with if they are being raised by responsible capable knowledgeable Parent(s) or immature irresponsible incapable Baby Maker(s).<br /><br />It is you who wants to exclusively blame the schools for the sins of the Baby Makers.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-49159054022635297992017-02-16T08:51:41.153-06:002017-02-16T08:51:41.153-06:00Ah, but your notion of a "failing school gett...Ah, but your notion of a "failing school getting worse" assumes that you have offered ONLY the "lucky kids" a chance to escape. While by your definition that is true, I point out that you have a definitional loop at work. Only the lucky kids can escape, and by your definition they are lucky because they escaped. But unless you offer that OPPORTUNITY to every kid and parent, how can you possibly know? And in any event, after the lucky kids escape, why don't we just close the "more-failing" school that remains? Obviously these kids can never learn anything. <br /><br />I don't have anything against unions, either, except that their very existence runs counter to personal economic freedom and free markets generally. If the teachers start being paid for performance and treated as the professionals they are, the union becomes unnecessary and counterproductive, and they know it. If the MEA and NEA were truly "professional associations" it would be great, but we all know better.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-44797861494533288402017-02-16T08:11:46.426-06:002017-02-16T08:11:46.426-06:00As we have discussed many times before...
Typic...As we have discussed many times before... <br /><br />Typically it is not a "failing school", it is typically a school that is full of unlucky failing children with failing parents.<br /><br />Now every time we make it easier for the students and the funding that goes with them to flee their less fortunate peers, the density of the unlucky kids in the old school increases and things get worse for the remaining staff and students. (ie urban schools after decades of student flight)<br /><br />Lastly, Teachers need unions because the tax payers and bureaucrats are not invested in paying public employees adequately. The management in my company is very vested in paying good employees well so they can make profits. Unfortunately the public system is not so clear cut.<br /><br />I have nothing against Unions if they would start embracing pay for performance instead of pay for age and degrees...<br />Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-71009033056395362112017-02-16T07:29:04.129-06:002017-02-16T07:29:04.129-06:00"This leaves many of the truly unlucky kids o..."This leaves many of the truly unlucky kids out of those school demographics." I have never understood your logic here; it seems to prove the exact opposite of what you claim. IF the students with good parents are trapped in a failing school and can do better elsewhere, why would you deny them that opportunity just because the "unlucky kids" do not exercise the same opportunity? Conversely, why would you deny the "unlucky kids" at least the same opportunity, whether they grasped it or not? Are you really saying that the parents who win these lotteries for slots in better schools are better parents than those who lose those lotteries? <br /><br />As for the union issue, why should teachers belong to a union at all? Why are they not treated and paid as the professionals they are? All you need is a good merit pay system based on performance evaluation. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-21598040181673620732017-02-16T00:46:49.242-06:002017-02-16T00:46:49.242-06:00Coming from Private Industry, I just can not under...Coming from Private Industry, I just can not understand paying and retaining staff based mostly on their degrees and years in place.<br /><br />I mean do we as consumers pay the roofer twice as much just because he has been doing it for 20 years?<br /><br />Or do we hire the 3 yr roofer who has the same performance ratings and warranty and charges half as much.<br /><br />Yet for some reason the Public Employee Union supporters insist on paying double as long as it is coming out of the tax payers pocket.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-6978174551607741372017-02-16T00:40:34.967-06:002017-02-16T00:40:34.967-06:00It seems to me that these 180,000 state and local ...It seems to me that these 180,000 state and local employees simply want more income, benefits, job security, job selection rights, etc than would be available if they worked in the private work force. (ie market based)<br /><br />And of course everyone would love these things, however their wants come at a huge expense to the students and/or tax payers. I mean it is pretty easy to understand that someone has to pay for those goodies, and/or the schools can not hire as many Teachers because each Teacher costs more..<br /><br />If the public employee comp and benefits package is 20% too high (compared to free market), that means ~20% fewer staff can be hired. Which leads to larger class sizes, employees spread too thin, etc.<br /><br />If a larger percentage of the budget is going to more experienced / degreed employees who are not more productive, carrying more responsibilities, etc that leaves less to entice and pay new high performing personnel.<br /><br />And when times get tight and questionable employees are kept and excellent non-tenured staff is laid off, well that is just bad practice that harms the students, etc.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-32625162017790360642017-02-16T00:28:04.504-06:002017-02-16T00:28:04.504-06:00Now back to the NPR Iowa article for a moment.
&q...Now back to the <a href="http://www.npr.org/2017/02/14/515242288/iowa-moves-to-restrict-collective-bargaining-for-public-sector-workers?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=politics&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20170214" rel="nofollow">NPR Iowa article</a> for a moment.<br /><br />"About 180,000 state and local government workers would be prohibited from negotiating over issues including health insurance, seniority and extra pay. The legislation also leaves in place a provision that prevents workers from going on strike. And it includes provisions that would make it more difficult for unions to collect dues."Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.com