tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post7809035240962051321..comments2024-03-28T10:08:06.291-05:00Comments on Give2Attain: The Challenges of DemocracyJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-36898981489817512902016-09-15T19:33:24.915-05:002016-09-15T19:33:24.915-05:00Exactly right. People of every race that share ce...Exactly right. People of every race that share certain socioeconomic "beliefs" get along well and tend to succeed academically in similar numbers. Picking up kids unlike those already there and dropping them in simply creates "ghettos" within the school. There is minimal peer pressure because nobody considers these new kids to be peers and vice versa. Some of the new kids do better academically because the schools have higher expectations and because additional resources-- tutors, etc.-- may be available, but in my experience it tends to be marginal. It works best when the parents WANT to move to where there are "better schools" but could not otherwise afford it. In other words, where the socioeconomic beliefs are already aligned. In short, if we had school choice for everybody we wouldn't have to move them at all. Those who wanted a better ed for their kids (and I will claim that's a vast majority) could get it. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-34878339842830846002016-09-15T16:06:09.345-05:002016-09-15T16:06:09.345-05:00Jerry,
I am a bit amazed at your denial of the pow...Jerry,<br />I am a bit amazed at your denial of the power of peer pressure.<br /><br />I thought every parent understood how important it is during the developmental years to ensure their children's friends are good influences. Thankfully my wife promoted that early and now the girls purposely avoid the kids who drink, smoke, do drugs, ignore their homework and/or act up in class.<br /><br />Not sure how she did it, but it is wonderful.<br /><br />Returning to Race for a minute... Please remember that my daughters have friends from pretty much every race imaginable. (ie Plymouth Middle School and Armstrong High School are very diverse) In fact they straighten me out if I make any inappropriate jokes. But even they understand very clearly that there are kids who make good choices and those who make bad choices. And that one is influenced by those who you choose to hang with. <br />Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-64870281738928226252016-09-15T15:54:43.602-05:002016-09-15T15:54:43.602-05:00Since we know the physiology and capabilities of a...Since we know the physiology and capabilities of all humans is roughly similar across all races. And racism is much lower than in the past.<br /><br />I prefer to focus on academic results with regard to:<br />- free/ reduced lunch<br />- English as a second language<br />- special ed<br />- mobility<br /><br />All of which they also record.<br /><br />The primary reason race matters from my view point is because of very broad brush social belief systems that some people in the Race sometimes show.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-5971505304422525352016-09-15T14:37:29.552-05:002016-09-15T14:37:29.552-05:00"And please note that I think race has nothin..."And please note that I think race has nothing to do with this issue." Nor do I, but "the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet." We track achievement gap by race, and by that measure, inner city public schools are failing black students in far disproportion. That blacks are also disproportionately from single parent homes and poor households might account for the difference, but that only makes race a good proxy, not a clue to what causes the "gap." So while it makes sense to treat the causes of educational dysfunction caused by poverty and family structure, our "desegregation" efforts are focused on race alone and that simply ignores the real factors involved. So, no difference. <br /><br />The idea that we can get poor people out in the suburbs where their kids will get a better education simply ignores the fact these people a) don't have jobs at all, much less one requiring a commute, unless they have a job downtown they can already reach, and b) if they have a job it isn't enough to afford a house in the suburbs or they would already have moved to a place with "good schools," just like everybody else does when they have kids and money. There is absolutely nothing about changing the location of unlucky kids that will turn them into lucky kids; you simply make them uncommon failures rather than common failures like everybody else around them. <br /><br />I know that money doesn't make for good education, but the notion we could spend $2 billion on something as tenuously related to academic improvement as is SWLRT simply defies any notion of "public good."jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-171607496999752402016-09-15T14:35:44.872-05:002016-09-15T14:35:44.872-05:00"Don't tell me the only way a black kid c..."Don't tell me the only way a black kid can learn is if a white kid sits next to him."<br /><br />Wow. Racist much? John never mentioned race.<br /><br />JoelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-62494782794751692622016-09-15T11:01:15.671-05:002016-09-15T11:01:15.671-05:00Sean,
Sorry I am not making this clearer for you. ...Sean,<br />Sorry I am not making this clearer for you. Maybe I will post an sketch in a future post.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-91494049836977774822016-09-15T10:59:10.308-05:002016-09-15T10:59:10.308-05:00Jerry,
You definitely are fixed in your belief sys...Jerry,<br />You definitely are fixed in your belief system. And please note that I think race has nothing to do with this issue. That is a belief many Liberals hold.<br /><br />Now we know that the a large number of the kids in schools with high poverty rates fail academically. That is why I am very specific that the community needs to be under 40% free and reduced lunch... And 20% is much better. <br /><br />Just bussing kids for 7 hrs in a different reality isn't enough when they spend the vast majority in their family's reality.<br /><br />Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-7241081066712441442016-09-15T10:13:48.923-05:002016-09-15T10:13:48.923-05:00I can't go on with this conversation. Your pos...I can't go on with this conversation. Your position is so incoherent I can't make heads or tails of it anymore.Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-54900718189295318372016-09-15T10:04:01.580-05:002016-09-15T10:04:01.580-05:00Sean,
Please don't confuse "spokes" ...Sean,<br />Please don't confuse "spokes" with local development. I agree that doubling the size of 55, and converting 12 to a limited access freeway (394) were excellent examples of enabling and encouraging sprawl. These are true spokes that start at downtown and help make it easier to live far away while working in town. <br /><br />I am sure Delano appreciates the Hwy 12 improvements that helped many people to live there and grow their community. Where I am sure the cities in the RDale school district don't appreciate these spokes that made it easier for the young successful Parents to flee Westward and led to the closure of many of their local schools. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-79555805249317844052016-09-15T09:03:27.677-05:002016-09-15T09:03:27.677-05:00"The best thing for the Twin Cities metro wou..."The best thing for the Twin Cities metro would be if we could spread out the unsuccessful folk so they can learn from and model the successful folk."<br /><br />Why? It doesn't work, and it's insulting to boot. Don't tell me the only way a black kid can learn is if a white kid sits next to him. We've been trying this "integration" for 50 years and it hasn't wrought any miracles that I can see. And by your own admission, those suburban teachers, accustomed to "lucky kids" have even less idea what to do with a bunch of "unlucky kids" thrown into their classrooms. And I've seen it personally, so don't bet the cost of light rail that you can suddenly make magic. <br /><br />If poor parents can afford a new house in Wayzata or Edina, they will buy one, but then they wouldn't be poor and their kids wouldn't be "unlucky." Kids staying in failing schools are there because government has offered them no realistic alternatives. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-64887986134865014822016-09-15T08:50:35.332-05:002016-09-15T08:50:35.332-05:00Lots of major roads in Plymouth have been upgraded...Lots of major roads in Plymouth have been upgraded in the last 40 years. 55 used to be one lane each way way back in the day, Rockford Road has been upgraded, Bass Lake Road has been upgraded.<br /><br />It feels to me like you're just making this up as you go.<br /><br />"I don't think much has been done to increase capacity between the 610 and 694." <br /><br />Brooklyn Park did tons of road work from Noble to 169 to facilitate development off of 610. Why do you think the Target in Maple Grove was built where it was instead of over by the Walmart on 94? Do you think they intended to be in the middle of field when it was built and it's just serendipity that a highway is going past there now?Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-32249223376176821912016-09-14T16:53:49.469-05:002016-09-14T16:53:49.469-05:00Looking at the map, I don't think much has bee...Looking at the map, I don't think much has been done to increase capacity between the 610 and 694. And hopefully the MAC/State will keep these constrained, so those communities will develop into more than just bedroom communities.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-18850442249238838182016-09-14T16:50:22.948-05:002016-09-14T16:50:22.948-05:00Plymouth really only has one direct spoke to the d...Plymouth really only has one direct spoke to the downtown area. Hwy 55 which is 2 lanes each way with stoplights. Though Southern Plymouth folks can access 394 pretty easily. Finally, please remember that Plymouth's East boundary is only ~3 miles from N Mpls' West boundary. So I am not sure we would count as sprawl... I think I live ~8.5 miles from Target Field as the birdie flies.<br /><br />I assume Plymouth was successful in part because of 494, the nice lakes, the degradation of the inner city/burbs, available land for modern homes, business friendly government, close proximity to downtown, etc. For these reasons, yes I think it would have been.<br /><br />Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-87159588278312478162016-09-14T15:15:52.366-05:002016-09-14T15:15:52.366-05:00So, are these communities that are beefing up thei...So, are these communities that are beefing up their spokes near 610 doing something good or bad? Would Plymouth be the "powerhouse community" is is today if it had left its spokes unchanged since the completion of 494?Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-43527109178625317032016-09-14T14:58:22.890-05:002016-09-14T14:58:22.890-05:00As for outer rings and spokes. There will already...As for outer rings and spokes. There will already be spokes.<br /><br />The question is do we increase the capacity and number of spokes, or do we leave them be?<br /><br />If we want to divert traffic from the cities and constrain sprawl / bedroom communities, we would leave them be. (ie keep cost of travelling the spokes higher)Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-91552729965768162662016-09-14T14:54:16.009-05:002016-09-14T14:54:16.009-05:00"the "financial, headache and time costs..."the "financial, headache and time costs" of living far from the city" <br /><br />I think the risk of death in an auto accident may be considered a "cost" of living out there.<br /><br />And what would reduce the cost of living out there? Expanding 212 to a 4 lane limited access road with highly controlled merge ramps...<br /><br />Since I work just South of 212 and the farm / lake home are near Canby I am very familiar with the stretch you are discussing. Though usually I take Hwy 7 to Montevideo... Fewer towns.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-34165858064411413892016-09-14T14:20:52.209-05:002016-09-14T14:20:52.209-05:00So if we build the outer ring, should we not conne...So if we build the outer ring, should we not connect any spokes to it?Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-61975798132729687722016-09-14T14:19:50.740-05:002016-09-14T14:19:50.740-05:00"The only purpose for these roads is to make ..."The only purpose for these roads is to make it easier to live in the rural areas and commute long distances to work."<br /><br />No, it's not. The two-lane stretch of 212 between Cologne and Carver, for instance, is one the more dangerous stretches of such highway near the Metro because of the high incidence of truck traffic on it. It's the primary trucking route between the Metro and a good swath of southwest Minnesota.<br />Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-73906496178903089602016-09-14T14:04:06.918-05:002016-09-14T14:04:06.918-05:00"an extension of four-lane 212,"
Now th..."an extension of four-lane 212,"<br /><br />Now that is an excellent example of a "sprawl proposal", just like when we extended 394/12 highway past Long Lake. The only purpose for these roads is to make it easier to live in the rural areas and commute long distances to work.<br /><br />As these spokes are expanded, the "financial, headache and time costs" of living far from the city are greatly reduced. Now if the State really wants to increase the population density inside the 494/694 ring, they would cease all of those road expansions that expand beyond them. "Land may be cheap in Carver... But the drive will kill you."<br /><br />Then people would be more willing to accept the "financial, headache and crime costs" of living inside the ring. Ironically, that would increase the values of the properties inside the ring and likely displace many of the poor. (for better or worse) It would also lead to more of the "old housing stock" being demolished and improved. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-7551545332199201472016-09-14T13:48:24.857-05:002016-09-14T13:48:24.857-05:00Jerry,
By experience we know that improving the ac...Jerry,<br />By experience we know that improving the academic achievement in schools where the free and reduced lunch percentage exceeds 40% is very very hard and expensive. There just aren't enough good peers to provide positive peer pressure, and the Parental/community support is lacking.<br /><br />The best thing for the Twin Cities metro would be if we could spread out the unsuccessful folk so they can learn from and model the successful folk. The good thing about peer pressure, it works both ways.<br /><br />Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-52186867864550128432016-09-14T13:29:36.901-05:002016-09-14T13:29:36.901-05:00"Sean, roads go where there is enough traffic..."Sean, roads go where there is enough traffic to warrant putting in a road, not the other way around. That's why LRT between the airport and MOA is a good idea, but LRT to "spur development" in the SW metro is not."<br /><br />LRT on that line makes sense because there's a large enough ridership to support it.<br /><br />"And "encouraging sprawl" allows people the freedom to live where they want, while LRT is one tool of those who want to dictate that people live concentrated near city centers."<br /><br />I don't see a whole lot of dictating going on here. The suburbs are still growing. And I'm not opposed to building highways in suburban/exurban areas. I've been pushing my Republican State House Rep to get off his behind and support an extension of four-lane 212, and improving 5 and 7 in my area.<br /><br />As a metro area, we need to be able to walk and chew gum when it comes to supporting roads and transit. If areas like Dallas, Phoenix and Salt Lake can figure this out on a bipartisan basis, why can't we?Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-76973313137410900232016-09-14T12:56:01.610-05:002016-09-14T12:56:01.610-05:00John, what you say "may be true" may be ...John, what you say "may be true" may be true, but it is a poor reason to put in a light rail system. Wouldn't it be easier and far, far cheaper to just improve the schools where those kids are already? And if it allows "poor people" to commute further to work, won't that increase the number of people commuting and the effect on total traffic congestion be nil? (It is already nearly zero, and the easiest way you get riders is by cancelling the competing bus service, as Metro Transit has done for the other LRT lines. Very few people are "getting out of their cars." <br /><br />Sean, roads go where there is enough traffic to warrant putting in a road, not the other way around. That's why LRT between the airport and MOA is a good idea, but LRT to "spur development" in the SW metro is not. And "encouraging sprawl" allows people the freedom to live where they want, while LRT is one tool of those who want to dictate that people live concentrated near city centers.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-42997836933648256802016-09-14T12:05:23.090-05:002016-09-14T12:05:23.090-05:00"So if Blaine prospers and grows because it h..."So if Blaine prospers and grows because it has the 610 nearby. Excellent !!!"<br /><br />I still don't understand how the above and this:<br /><br />"All we are doing by building bigger highways and/or transit systems is contributing to suburban sprawl."<br /><br />work together.<br /><br />What's an example of highway project that just encourages sprawl versus highway project that you endorse? How do I know in advance what a proposed highway project will be?Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-64035600801017947732016-09-14T12:01:50.519-05:002016-09-14T12:01:50.519-05:00Joel, Agreed.
Jerry,
Pros:
Poor people can more e...Joel, Agreed.<br /><br />Jerry,<br />Pros:<br />Poor people can more easily live, work and/or attend schools in Eden Prairie, Hopkins, Minnetonka, St Louis Park, etc. This may reduce segregation and increase the opportunities for their children. (that is unless gentrification along the line squeezes them out)<br /><br />If gentrification occurs and wealthier people have their kids in those public schools. They will be improved. (ie more tax revenue, more engaged parents, more good peer pressure, wealthy people do not put up with bad personnel in their schools, etc)<br /><br />Light rail is clean and convenient if you are travelling the route.<br /><br />It will reduce the number of cars and buses that use the spoke highways each day. (maybe ~15,000/day fewer)<br /><br />It may slow the decay of Mpls/ St Paul and prevent them from looking like Detroit at some point in the future.<br /><br /><a href="http://metrocouncil.org/Transportation/Projects/Current-Projects/Southwest-LRT/Photos/Maps/SWLRT-Route-Map-800px-(July-2015).aspx" rel="nofollow">SW Route</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-51293281718805788452016-09-14T11:54:01.122-05:002016-09-14T11:54:01.122-05:00On the contrary, the way you phrase it is exactly ...On the contrary, the way you phrase it is exactly right. We pool our resources so that we can do things as a collective-- i.e. through government-- that we could not do as individuals or as smaller entities, like city government or local civic organizations. The local Elks lodge never built an Interstate highway system, for example. But the reverse is also true. An LRT line to Eden Prairie barely benefits Eden Prairie, let alone the whole Metro area and certainly not the whole State. And why should all the taxpayers of the US pick up half the cost? In some places that would be called the undemocratic "ruling class" imposing their will on the unwilling. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.com