tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post8713495708842588703..comments2024-03-28T10:08:06.291-05:00Comments on Give2Attain: True Cost of Teach for AmericaJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-35854429766225213302015-01-11T10:49:06.212-06:002015-01-11T10:49:06.212-06:00Now let's compare Mississippi with Minneapolis...Now let's compare Mississippi with Minneapolis. And then compare the Mississippi before federal meddling with Minneapolis.<br /><br />Why not compare Edina with Minneapolis? After all, Edina has a lot more in common with Minneapolis, and it's a lot closer. We sure know a lot more about what goes on in the Edina school system than we do, Mississippi's.<br /><br /><br /><br />--HiramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-58230533838171806642015-01-11T07:21:24.020-06:002015-01-11T07:21:24.020-06:00OK, fine. Now let's compare Mississippi with ...OK, fine. Now let's compare Mississippi with Minneapolis. And then compare the Mississippi before federal meddling with Minneapolis. Let's face it, we're not Lake Woebegone, where "all the kids are a little above average." We've got some large pockets of educational system failure. I would say "third world style" except that many of those countries' best are far ahead of our worst. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-72731315296554490512015-01-10T23:38:03.407-06:002015-01-10T23:38:03.407-06:00While surfing the web just now I came across A Fre...While surfing the web just now I came across <a href="http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2015/01/08/a-fresh-approach-to-ranking-states-on-education.html" rel="nofollow">A Fresh Approach to Ranking States on Education</a><br /><br />If you click the link to <a href="http://www.edweek.org/media/grading-summary-education-week-quality-counts-2015.pdf" rel="nofollow">this chart</a> you might notice that Minnesota comes in 10th and Mississippi last. In the area of K12 achievement Mississippi was the only stat to get an F. Sorry Jerry.<br /><br />I was a bit surprised that we were only 10th but I haven't studied it at all to see why we are not nearer to the top.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09905073449150541750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-48323405739756715522015-01-10T22:36:48.399-06:002015-01-10T22:36:48.399-06:00Laurie,
I have long been on record that charter sc...Laurie,<br />I have long been on record that charter schools should be treated equally to the other public schools. Including being given the freedom to buy or rent school building that other districts no longer need.<br /><br />Unfortunately Education MN and the Status Quo public schools lobby hard for their near Monopoly. As I always say, those "caring" adults are almost always dedicated to putting their job security, compensation, power, etc before the needs of the unlucky children.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-33852871677903566272015-01-10T09:14:46.160-06:002015-01-10T09:14:46.160-06:00regarding charter school funding I was inferring f...regarding charter school funding I was inferring from all your comments. So your most recent comments suggests that maybe you do think a charter like my school does deserve more money.<br /><br />If we had $100,000 more per year I would open our library. Right now we have a classroom full of second hand books in boxes. No one on staff has th time or motivation to set this up so our students could stat borrowing our junky books. <br /><br />With $200,000 we could have new books for the kids. Most classrooms have a very limited collection of books (with the exception of mine because I have spent hundreds of dollars.) Out of our generous pay checks we are expected to purchase books for our students. Most classrooms have next to nothing for their low students to read, as a 5th grade classroom needs books from kindergarten to 5th grade level.<br /><br />fyi - only one of the 4 charter schools I have worked in has a library. It came as part of an expansion which included a new gym (which is another thing my school lacks)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09905073449150541750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-5889886335598969252015-01-10T07:26:03.098-06:002015-01-10T07:26:03.098-06:00NO, I'm not kidding. I start from a position ...NO, I'm not kidding. I start from a position that all kids should have an equal opportunity for a good education, and have a reasonably equal ability to learn. In fact, it's required by the Minnesota Constitution. Do you expect me to believe that our urban schools are NOT egregious examples of failure? Offer any explanations you want, but they are not excuses. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-20866274259736065082015-01-09T22:01:49.850-06:002015-01-09T22:01:49.850-06:00"Kids are kids, are they not?"
Really....."Kids are kids, are they not?"<br /><br />Really... You are kidding, right?<br /><br />Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-60306214377938496762015-01-09T21:53:25.245-06:002015-01-09T21:53:25.245-06:00"but think charters, who generally educate a ..."but think charters, who generally educate a more at risk population than Mpls, should get by with the same funding as the ave. suburban district."<br /><br />Where again have I ever written this view? All I said was that special needs is really really expensive, and that the status quo public schools carry the lion's share of the load.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-17793014525127699432015-01-09T19:24:05.582-06:002015-01-09T19:24:05.582-06:00Jerry,
Now you do understand that HCZ requires lot...Jerry,<br />Now you do understand that HCZ requires lots of parent education, early childhood education, K-12 and college scholarships.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-91516744940731613262015-01-09T17:34:11.912-06:002015-01-09T17:34:11.912-06:00Just for the record, my claim that Mpls pays teach...Just for the record, my claim that Mpls pays teachera 50% more than a charter school teacher is a bit of an exaggeration. I compared salaries at three points on the salary schedule:<br /><br />upper left: Mpls salary $40,000 = 14% higher<br /><br />mid range (masters degree, 20 yrs)<br />$69,000 = 25% higher<br /><br />lower right (MA+60, 40 years) <br />$83,000 =40% higher<br /><br />I am familiar with pay scales at 4 different charters and my current school is the best of the four.Lauriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04780590153257411142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-82487838754362439822015-01-09T17:12:30.323-06:002015-01-09T17:12:30.323-06:00"Now please provide a link to where I have ev..."Now please provide a link to where I have ever said this..." OK, I am admittedly paraphrasing, but two posts later you say it again: "In Minneapolis things are a bit different." How so? Kids are kids, are they not?<br /><br />Then you put words in my mouth, saying, "Oh come now, from above it sounds like you are against national education performance standards and working to ensure every school/student meets or exceeds them." I am not against standards, but national standards run the concomitant risk of national meddling and I KNOW that does more harm than good. I am all in favor of making sure every student is educated "to their full potential" and I am incensed that so much of our current public school system not only guarantees the opposite but works to continue it. <br /><br />And then, " It is like saying the manufacturing costs should be the same no matter where the plant is located or what the quality/availabity of the raw materials are..." I said no such thing. I said that the Minneapolis schools could do far better for less money. I didn't say they could do it for the same or less than Orono (though economies of scale might argue they should). My big concern at this point isn't the cost, but I think we absolutely must get away from the notion that more money makes for better schools. So long as they have that excuse, they will have little incentive to improve results and THAT is what must change. I think they WANT to do better, but I'm not convinced they know how and their knowing how to make that happen is even less likely. If they could, they would have done it long ago. <br /><br />I'm afraid the only way we're going to solve this appalling lack of achievement is with some radical change, like district-wide HCZ or universal vouchers. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-88784214409954516572015-01-09T17:08:07.348-06:002015-01-09T17:08:07.348-06:00Also, I really don't understand, John, why you...Also, I really don't understand, John, why you are so supportive of high spencding in Mpls public, but think charters, who generally educate a more at risk population than Mpls, should get by with the same funding as the ave. suburban district.<br /><br />I did the math. <br />$8,000 additional per student x 320 students = $2,560,000<br /><br />We couldd provide some super fantastic spec ed services for that kind of money, if Mpls wanted to send us some of their high needs students. <br /><br />Or maybe we could just give each staff person in my building a $50,000 raise :)Lauriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04780590153257411142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-28331021245425784912015-01-09T16:39:27.316-06:002015-01-09T16:39:27.316-06:00Funny you should mention turnover, John. On my dri...Funny you should mention turnover, John. On my drive home today I tried to recall all the staff who have left my school in the 5 years I have been there. I came up with 26 (which doesn't include new hires who lasted only a week or two and in one case less than a day.)<br /><br />Out of the 29 teaching positiona at my school only one is filled by a person who was there when I started, that is the phy ed. teacher. Does your workplace experience this rate of turnover, if not perhaps you are all overpaid.<br /><br />I know my school would pay us better if they had the $. Every usable space in our building is occupied so they couldn't hire more staff. Maybe if we were paid better more teachers would stay more than a few years.Lauriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04780590153257411142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-9387249581770718522015-01-09T13:59:54.837-06:002015-01-09T13:59:54.837-06:00"A school or district that spends twice the a..."A school or district that spends twice the average and gets only half the results (test scores, graduation rate) is a poor value. That's Minneapolis, and in any truly competitive situation this "company" would be out of business in a trice, replaced by something far, far better, at lower cost. "<br /><br />Though it may be common sense to you, it seems to be incredibly illogical to me. It is like saying the manufacturing costs should be the same no matter where the plant is located or what the quality/availabity of the raw materials are...<br /><br />The reality is that most kids enter the Orono school district with well developed social, physical, and academic skills. They come with ready and excited to learn, with Parents who are dedicated to and capable of supporting them.<br /><br />In Minneapolis things are a bit different.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-47899005937800597512015-01-09T13:34:06.033-06:002015-01-09T13:34:06.033-06:00"The only problem conservatives (like me, at ..."The only problem conservatives (like me, at least) have with these programs is that they have to fight the government to do what government says is THEIR exclusive domain. "<br /><br />Oh come now, from above it sounds like you are against national education performance standards and working to ensure every school/student meets or exceeds them. You appear to be okay letting states and communities choose to let kids graduate without an adequate education.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-36632872757798889642015-01-09T13:08:02.522-06:002015-01-09T13:08:02.522-06:00"you've said that poor kids and black kid..."you've said that poor kids and black kids can't learn"<br /><br />Now please provide a link to where I have ever said this...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-32514518171645418482015-01-09T10:34:21.855-06:002015-01-09T10:34:21.855-06:00" too bad they are teaching that more challen..." too bad they are teaching that more challenging curriculum poorly."<br /><br />Your criticism of Mississippi schools is statistically accurate, but misses two things: a) you've said that poor kids and black kids can't learn, of which Mississippi has many, and b) my comparisons were made before the federal government's intensive meddling in Mississippi schools eliminated many of their advantages. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-5173091282577124182015-01-09T10:27:31.370-06:002015-01-09T10:27:31.370-06:00Sean,
Laurie's school is an excellent example ...Sean,<br />Laurie's school is an excellent example of why I think public school teacher compensation is "higher than market". The teachers that work there are paid what it takes to attract and retain good employees.<br /><br />If they don't pay enough, they will not have appropriate applicants and the their employees will quit for greener pastures.<br /><br />"In fact, I call tenure related comp the silver hand cuffs for teachers. Often they are trapped in a district, position or school that they hate and they can't justify changing jobs because they don't want to lose their relatively high comp or tenure related benefits. So how do you think this trapped Teacher performs. (ie good pay/security but unhappy/depressed/frustrated) And of course the administration can't do much except pay them because they are performing marginally, but ok." G2A <a href="http://give2attain.blogspot.com/2013/08/progressives-against-improving-schools.html" rel="nofollow">Link</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-37970736043555797462015-01-09T10:18:24.215-06:002015-01-09T10:18:24.215-06:00Jerry,
If that is the case it is too bad they are ...Jerry,<br />If that is the case it is too bad they are teaching that more challenging curriculum poorly. Or at least that is what the national tests indicate. <br /><a href="https://www.collegeboard.org/program-results/2014/mississippi" rel="nofollow">Mississippi SAT</a><br /><a href="https://www.collegeboard.org/program-results/2014/minnesota" rel="nofollow">Minnesota SAT</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-8441337338703014932015-01-09T10:16:06.052-06:002015-01-09T10:16:06.052-06:00I think the way to look at school spending is as a...I think the way to look at school spending is as a "value proposition." A school or district that spends twice the average and gets only half the results (test scores, graduation rate) is a poor value. That's Minneapolis, and in any truly competitive situation this "company" would be out of business in a trice, replaced by something far, far better, at lower cost. THAT is not only fair, it's common sense and long overdue.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-46765786342300157732015-01-09T10:12:00.564-06:002015-01-09T10:12:00.564-06:00"Conservatives dreading consistency and gover..."Conservatives dreading consistency and government involvement"<br /><br />Where are you getting that idea? Are you suggesting that a private initiative like HCZ is somehow a conservative nightmare? Maybe because it is of and for black people? Shame! The only problem conservatives (like me, at least) have with these programs is that they have to fight the government to do what government says is THEIR exclusive domain. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-66335584771238102502015-01-09T10:06:24.749-06:002015-01-09T10:06:24.749-06:00"My children are 1+ years ahead of most of th..."My children are 1+ years ahead of most of the kids in Minnesota."<br /><br />I thought that might be your response. My kids were a couple years ahead of the average kids in Mississippi, too, because they had a lot of advantages, as your kids do. But when I say that they were "ahead" of the schools here in Minnesota, I mean that the CURRICULUM, the things actively being taught and the expectations, were ahead of Minnesota's, by roughly a year. And that's my point-- that there are many things a school can do to improve results regardless of the "incoming raw material" they are given, and the Minnesota urban schools are simply not doing them. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-17241949863820372452015-01-09T08:21:27.327-06:002015-01-09T08:21:27.327-06:00On what basis do you say that public school teache...On what basis do you say that public school teacher compensation is "higher than market"?Seanhttp://brickcityblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-34137468863736746362015-01-08T23:39:46.757-06:002015-01-08T23:39:46.757-06:00It isn't fair that their compensation is much ...It isn't fair that their compensation is much higher than market, and that it is distributed based on "years served" and not performance. That is why Conservatives are against the Unions who put the employee's wants way before the children's needs.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-56049255125552361902015-01-08T19:40:17.022-06:002015-01-08T19:40:17.022-06:00I have always been supportive of higher funding fo...I have always been supportive of higher funding for schools with high numbers of at risk kids, but 50% more seems a bit excessive.<br /><br />Have I mentioned the challenges we face at my school? (updated)<br /><br />100% low income<br /><br />85% English language learners<br /><br />about 30% of our students are language proficiency level 1<br /><br />about 20% of our students are new to country, most having very limited prior schooling.<br /><br />I don't see how Mpls deserves 50% higher funding even if they do have higher sped costs. I believe their pay scale is about 50% higher than a typical charter. How is that fair?Lauriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04780590153257411142noreply@blogger.com