tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post9000912777024317708..comments2024-03-28T06:23:02.679-05:00Comments on Give2Attain: Graduation Rates, Chronic AbsenceJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-54288821861744761042017-03-28T22:30:58.390-05:002017-03-28T22:30:58.390-05:00MN does Kindergarten readiness screening, and kids...MN does Kindergarten readiness screening, and kids get extra help when necessary.<br /><br />Unfortunately without an active, capable and supportive partner at home, sometimes it is not enough.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-62962276033598714422017-03-28T08:08:09.730-05:002017-03-28T08:08:09.730-05:00"And if we are paying them with our tax dolla..."And if we are paying them with our tax dollars to help them with the task..."<br /><br />There is the disconnect between the reality and what I consider the actual solution. If we are expending tax dollars on these parents and kids, then shouldn't we be expending them on things that will actually "help them with the task"? Just sending them a check or handing them food stamps doesn't do diddly. It offers no guidance and no opportunity. If the parent doesn't know, or isn't able, to teach the kid numbers and letters, then where do the kids learn it if not in school? Every factory has "incoming inspection" and will sometimes have a "rework line" to improve incoming material. Why would we not do the same with schools? Mississippi can do it, why can't Minnesota? jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-12083292356943392382017-03-27T22:44:13.128-05:002017-03-27T22:44:13.128-05:00Jerry,
Yes "forcing them to be responsible&qu...Jerry,<br />Yes "forcing them to be responsible" and "holding them accountable" are pretty much the same thing.<br /><br />You say the parents should be responsible... And if we are paying them with our tax dollars to help them with the task they chose to take on, let's ensure they are completing the task well.<br /><br />And yes I am fine using incentives, but I am also fine using penalties.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-2304361438910284482017-03-27T22:30:13.855-05:002017-03-27T22:30:13.855-05:00Mr Independent,
Excellent comments... That is wha...Mr Independent,<br />Excellent comments... That is what I have noticed also.<br /><br />It is very unfortunate but true.<br /><br />My simple belief is that ~65% of the academic achievement gap resides with the Parents. And ~35% resides with the school system.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-45553860115658476312017-03-27T19:36:28.612-05:002017-03-27T19:36:28.612-05:00I would consider my niece a baby maker. She has ha...I would consider my niece a baby maker. She has had three fathers to six children. It's annoying for me to see this. She thinks she's a good parent but I see someone stretching herself out and not helping her kids at all, while relying on the state for assistance. She is white but all the fathers have been black. She came from a family that had a lazy father and the mother was too busy working and unattached.Mr Independentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-86043531207874029122017-03-27T17:27:02.033-05:002017-03-27T17:27:02.033-05:00I volunteer at a School and I don't think the ...I volunteer at a School and I don't think the problem is with the schools in general. What I see as a disconnect is the parent involvement in the student. The school teach everybody at a level but if the child hasn't learned basic fundamentals prior to even going to school they are playing catch-up. The baby makers tend to not choose or do not have the ability to help their child make up that difference and they get in a slope of regressing compared to their peers. The school district that I am at tries to blame the teachers for not helping the socio-economic disadvantaged, while not blaming the parents who really need to be more active.Mr Independentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-2498211929899577392017-03-21T10:43:25.691-05:002017-03-21T10:43:25.691-05:00Please explain the difference between "forcin...Please explain the difference between "forcing them to be responsible" and "holding them accountable." I'm failing to see the distinction. Maybe what we should consider are the "incentives" in every government poverty or education program? What is the incentive in the current welfare system? To have more children to get more money, to NOT work to avoid cuts in benefits, to not care about getting your kids to school because they don't learn anything anyway, or because it isn't even safe, etc. Compare that with an incentive that says, you can have a job and make MORE money because you can keep receiving benefits, we'll arrange child care, your kids can go to school someplace where the ARE safe and getting an education with extra help if needed, etc. People will react to the incentives (and disincentives) presented to them. They make those decisions intelligently. All government (acting for "society") needs to do is to make sure those choices are PRESENTED intelligently. <br /><br />One rule I have used throughout my work is that we make it easier for people to follow the correct procedure/process than to work around it. And that getting them to success at greater rates, because of it, is its own reward, driving out the old bad practice.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-77902206520284344042017-03-21T08:39:23.157-05:002017-03-21T08:39:23.157-05:00Hiram,
Now you are getting Jerry's "carro...Hiram,<br />Now you are getting Jerry's "carrots for all" proposal.<br /><br />Jerry,<br />No one is even trying to force people to be responsible Parents. The Liberals think everyone has a right to have as many kids as they want whether they can afford them or not... And the Conservatives seem to believe that everyone is a wise and capable Parent because they can have unprotected intercourse.<br /><br />No wonder we have a continuing massive generational poverty and academic achievement gap. Remember "Sherhonda Mouton" above, broke and having her 4th baby from her 3rd man. It is sweet that the children meet her emotional needs... But what about the needs of the children?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-88576850335395973332017-03-21T06:19:38.349-05:002017-03-21T06:19:38.349-05:00
Kids will be left behind until we improve the edu...<br />Kids will be left behind until we improve the education system and hold people accountable for being responsible parents.<br /><br />Well, then I guess we should work harder to persuade students to stay in school. Would cupcakes on Tuesdays do the trick? How about the improved chances of getting into Harvard? <br /><br />--HiramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-86156512067636316762017-03-20T23:04:32.120-05:002017-03-20T23:04:32.120-05:00So close! It should be "kids will be left be...So close! It should be "kids will be left behind until we improve the education system and offer people the opportunity to be responsible parents." How well is it working to FORCE people to be "responsible," compared with helping and allowing people to be responsible?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-4785886144630741832017-03-20T15:11:08.377-05:002017-03-20T15:11:08.377-05:00Yes. You could be wrong. :-)
Kids will be left be...Yes. You could be wrong. :-)<br /><br />Kids will be left behind until we improve the education system and hold people accountable for being responsible parents.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-38609911854278796042017-03-20T15:04:40.973-05:002017-03-20T15:04:40.973-05:00I have Hiram saying just trust the Teachers and cl...<br />I have Hiram saying just trust the Teachers and close your eyes...<br /><br />Should we close our eyes as to what's happening in our schools, as I would argue?<br /><br />Or should we get involved with what's happening in our schools as others might assert?<br /><br />Is it actually possible that I might be wrong?<br /><br />--HiramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-24526423733682213842017-03-20T14:49:20.862-05:002017-03-20T14:49:20.862-05:00As I said earlier...
I have Hiram saying just tru...As I said earlier...<br /><br />I have Hiram saying just trust the Teachers and close your eyes...<br />I have you saying just trust the Parents and close your eyes...<br /><br />Both of which have led to millions of children trapped in poverty...<br /><br />I think America can do better. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-77538090511607218652017-03-20T14:25:07.142-05:002017-03-20T14:25:07.142-05:00"s that a carrot or a stick?" It is a b..."s that a carrot or a stick?" It is a big stick, so long as you require them to do something they cannot do, like help with homework that is beyond them, or making their kids learn something in a school that will not teach them. <br /><br />As for as pay for "what they should be doing," that is the same problem. Until you give these parents an actual choice of sending their kid to a school where they might learn something, giving them extra money so the kid continues to be short-changed is foolish on our end. Of course they will take the money, maybe even jump through the silly hoops, but it's unlikely to make much difference until the schools start getting carrots and sticks based on performance.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-43093156746372226442017-03-20T10:39:10.666-05:002017-03-20T10:39:10.666-05:00And I am certain the Jerry's "responsible...And I am certain the Jerry's "responsible Parents" will step up to the plate and be self disciplined to ensure their children don't lose anything given this opportunity to earn extra cash for doing what they should be doing in the first place. :-)Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-84682472518576193952017-03-20T10:32:31.126-05:002017-03-20T10:32:31.126-05:00I am told that healthy kids do better in school. B...I am told that healthy kids do better in school. But that might just be a coincidence.<br /><br />--HiramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-67095959121428833572017-03-20T10:27:04.731-05:002017-03-20T10:27:04.731-05:00Jerry,
So if we cut all of the welfare, medical, h...Jerry,<br />So if we cut all of the welfare, medical, housing and food benefits in half, and give the Mamas / Papas the opportunity to earn them back by making sure the kids are in school, clean, fed, homework complete, behaving well, listening well, etc every day...<br /><br />Is that a carrot or a stick?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-16625196793795992142017-03-20T09:51:14.507-05:002017-03-20T09:51:14.507-05:00The problem I have with accountability is that the...The problem I have with accountability is that there are all kinds of ways to measure stuff, and any time you choose one of them, you incorporate both it's assumptions and it's policy choices. Take graduation rate. To begin with, it evaluates a school on the basis of what it doesn't do, as opposed to what it does. Schools just don't educate the kids who don't attend them. And really, asking schools to make the case for education to hormonal teenagers involves the expenditure of a lot of resources that could be devoted to the kids who actually want to be in school. The fact is, if higher graduation rates are the goal, there are plenty of ways to hype them which have no tendency at all to actually make schools better. <br /><br />The drive to spend more resources to keep kids in school is arguably sound. But if that's the policy, we need to understand it comes with a cost. The kids who are on the edge of dropping out of schools are very likely the kids who are dragging down achievement test numbers. They are very likely the kids who are the most expensive to educate, who need things like special education and special tutoring and what not. I, personally, am fine with things, but after telling me we need to work harder to keep kids in school, I just am not that interested in hearing that the kids you wanted us to keep, are expensive and difficult to teach.<br /><br />--HiramAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-89467321937279359412017-03-19T23:02:06.470-05:002017-03-19T23:02:06.470-05:00Oh, I'm sorry, you said "society" sh...Oh, I'm sorry, you said "society" should hold... I thought you said "government," who is the party responsible now-- thru public schools and public welfare. Same thing, though, can you tell me what tools "society" has to enforce its wishes? without resorting to government coercion?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-31437747661756218722017-03-19T22:59:33.821-05:002017-03-19T22:59:33.821-05:00We don't have to disagree if you can show me w...We don't have to disagree if you can show me what "accountability" you have in mind that will be effective at producing the desired result and doesn't involve any nasty sticks.<br />I think you get more flies with carrots.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-14529240229140430072017-03-19T22:33:35.036-05:002017-03-19T22:33:35.036-05:00We will continue to agree to disagree, I think soc...We will continue to agree to disagree, I think society should hold Parents and Teachers accountable for fulfilling their responsibilities...<br /><br />Sticking my head in the sand and thinking wishfully is not in my nature.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-23545986075545434102017-03-19T21:35:14.215-05:002017-03-19T21:35:14.215-05:00I think you are imagining some system of "cho...I think you are imagining some system of "choice" that is fully available to all students& parents. It doesn't exist because all of these "choices," as far as I know, have enrollment limits, which means some kids do not get the choice, and there are other obstacles. Almost none of these parents have the means to afford moving to a different district and those that do, you criticize them for it. That's no choice at all. <br /><br />I don't think your piece really applies in this situation, either. You claim these folks are irresponsible and unaccountable already. You have denied them the authority to choose-- in this case a school-- and protected them from the consequences of bad choices without offering them a good one. Let's just have a simple system of "the money follows the student" and let competition work its magic.<br />sjerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-67029926526159181482017-03-19T16:33:08.089-05:002017-03-19T16:33:08.089-05:00I think you are forgetting that the MPS students a...I think you are forgetting that the MPS students already have a choice of magnets, charters, open enrollment and moving to a different district... So apparently the Mamas and Papas are already responsible...<br /><br />You do have a funny idea of what being responsible means... I like this piece...<br /><br /><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140602201644-222317597-responsibility-without-accountability-is-toothless" rel="nofollow">Responsibility without Accountability</a><br /><br />"Delegating authority and responsibility without attaching accountability and consequences for failing to perform is pointless."<br /><br />Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-32035842993232573542017-03-19T14:53:58.685-05:002017-03-19T14:53:58.685-05:00She is given the responsibility to make good choic...She is given the responsibility to make good choices by actually offering her a choice other than the situation she now has. She can make that choice and becomes responsible for the consequences, regardless of which way she chooses. Now, if she chooses badly, in this case regarding her child's education, I don't think sticks will help, and she has already been offered the carrot unless you want to pay kids to get good grades or somesuch. As for who pays to make these calls, I think it's trivial and should come out of the school budget, but I am also willing to pay for the extra tutoring or whatever, provided it gets real results. Frankly, with the amount being spent in these inner city schools-- more than twice the state average-- I would think they could do THAT out of the existing budget, too. <br /><br />Now, you can view WI workfare any way you want. I think of it as a carrot, just like the offer of extra tutoring. The only difference is that if you turn down tutoring you lose nothing. If you turn down work you lose your check. If you take the job you keep your check, so it's a carrot if you take it, and a stick if you don't. You have to offer the carrot first, and it is then the recipient's responsibility to decide-- You've given them a choice that they didn't have before. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-67465588667115305532017-03-19T13:26:37.748-05:002017-03-19T13:26:37.748-05:00I have no desire to put her in jail... I was more...I have no desire to put her in jail... I was more interested in reducing her welfare or tax credits... Kind of like Wisconsin did to encourage the people to make good choices. (ie that carrot you mentioned)<br /><br />You are going to have to help me understand how listening to people who come to her door is taking responsibility for her child(ren)? <br /><br />"Now, <b>no matter which way she reacts, she has taken responsibility for the situation</b>. Done."<br /><br />Now I'll ask the simple question, who is going to pay to have the social workers and Teachers going around talking to the Mamas / Papas in the evening?<br /><br />If the Mama / Papa does not change their behaviors / choices, will these folks have any carrots or sticks in their pockets?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.com