tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post9107172150869220027..comments2024-03-28T10:08:06.291-05:00Comments on Give2Attain: District 281: Vote YES Info MtgJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-21623470587388289362014-10-27T16:46:13.814-05:002014-10-27T16:46:13.814-05:00Let me complain less and offer a positive approach...Let me complain less and offer a positive approach. If a public school would come to (the legislature) and say something like, "our basic skills score in reading is 34, and has been that way for years. If we could get another $5000/pupil for the next 3 years, we could raise that score above 50%, by instituting these three [specific] focused programs for all students," then I would say the lege ought to look seriously at doing it. That is, not a blank check, but a clear and cost-effective contract. Otherwise, we're just doing like now, throwing more money down the same old ratholes and getting more rats. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-42372479912511334092014-10-27T16:34:29.559-05:002014-10-27T16:34:29.559-05:00YOU are! The DFL and Educrats are! You keep talk...YOU are! The DFL and Educrats are! You keep talking about the "unlucky kids" as being the ones from poor homes or on FRL, and we all know that's code for poor and black. And if it isn't code it's still the statistical reality. The poor and black are concentrated in the urban core and the schools that fail are in the urban core.<br /><br />For years we have been told that these "unlucky kids" are disadvantaged before and during school and that more money is required to "educate them to their full potential." So they have been given more and more money but achievement has barely budged, so now it is the fault of the parents, or something, or simply that these kids can't learn. Nonsense. It's that these schools can't teach, period! I've tutored kids that exhibited massive turnarounds in achievement in a single year; I know it can be done, and I know too many schools aren't doing it. Time to demand accountability and to demand BETTER.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-22843003772441953152014-10-27T13:22:28.659-05:002014-10-27T13:22:28.659-05:00"Saying that poor black kids can't learn ..."Saying that poor black kids can't learn "<br /><br />Who other than yourself is saying this?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-44093096871170016562014-10-27T12:48:26.236-05:002014-10-27T12:48:26.236-05:00I wondered whether that was a leap of logic or not...I wondered whether that was a leap of logic or not, after posting it, but the difference in results was simply too striking to ignore. We're always told that those who get more education value it more and do better in life. And yet here we see that how well the kids achieve in school doesn't seem to be affected by these very same factors. Yes, there are dirt-poor college graduates, and millionaire drop-outs, but those are the exception, not the statistical norm. Saying that poor black kids can't learn is condemning them to misery and is the worst kind of bigotry. More challenging, sure. Requiring more money, probably, but they already GET that. So long as we keep our bigoted expectations so low and our range of excuses so high, the schools will never be responsible for their results and I'm incensed by it.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-40729650951243445492014-10-27T09:44:47.952-05:002014-10-27T09:44:47.952-05:00"obviously not the fault of the parents"..."obviously not the fault of the parents"<br /><br />How did you make that leap of logic?<br /><br />We know that poor and minority kids have lower academic success for many reasons. (ie achievement gap)<br /><br />I agree that it is interesting that whether Parents had a college degree or not did not make much of a difference. Then again, how many people with college degrees have kids who are getting free and reduced lunch?<br /><br />I assume there are many people with degrees who end up as single parents in very low paying jobs.<br /><br />A friend of mine's daughter got her LPN before becoming a drug addicted welfare mom...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-51713125711264381092014-10-27T08:05:25.388-05:002014-10-27T08:05:25.388-05:00I think maybe your answer is in the item you alrea...I think maybe your answer is in the item you already posted, confirming my assertion about the amount of remediation needed. It shows that remediation is almost independent of parents' education level, but increases greatly for minority students. Therefore, someone at or near the top of their class in a majority-minority school is much more likely to require remediation in college. The public high schools are NOT properly preparing (roughly) 37% of black students or 22% of white students. That's shameful and obviously not the fault of the parents.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-76632300870160682102014-10-26T21:35:17.574-05:002014-10-26T21:35:17.574-05:00So many Valedictorians flunk out...
Please tell u...So many Valedictorians flunk out...<br /><br />Please tell us what the percentage is and provide a source.<br /><br />Though I do agree that sometimes people who always got A's in K-12 have a very hard time in college.<br /><br />Especially if they move away from home and start partying or lose focus for some other reason. I was in the top 10% of my HS class and finished my first year in college with a 2.5 GPA... <br /><br />My initial failure had nothing to do with my academic capability or preparation. It had a whole lot to do with keg races, pitcher nights, house parties, etc.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-90001840631483566052014-10-26T21:18:50.403-05:002014-10-26T21:18:50.403-05:00NCES College Remediation<a href="http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2013/2013013.pdf" rel="nofollow">NCES College Remediation</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-14696021983707227762014-10-26T08:08:21.558-05:002014-10-26T08:08:21.558-05:00My problem is that most of the publics actually fa...My problem is that most of the publics actually fail the "lucky" kids, just not to the same degree. That's why so many valedictorians from public schools flunk out of college, and why 30-odd percent of MN high school grads require remedial courses in college. The whole system is failing, and not because of "raw material." The system as is will not survive true competition, which is why that is fought tooth and nail. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-53632492023201729872014-10-20T16:12:07.008-05:002014-10-20T16:12:07.008-05:00It is a nasty conundrum.
For profits that only wa...It is a nasty conundrum.<br /><br />For profits that only want the profitable / lucky kids vs publics that do best with the profitable / lucky kids.<br /><br />Either way the high cost / unlucky kids are likely screwed...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-5736355325677047162014-10-20T15:25:02.200-05:002014-10-20T15:25:02.200-05:00Since they need voter approval for a levy, yes, th...Since they need voter approval for a levy, yes, that is what we see. And so my guess is that that is about all they actually DO. Making substantial changes to the curriculum, discipline policy, teacher compensation, standards, offering and testing regimen are all hard things to do and tend to create battles for which the Board is not paid to engage, even were they qualified, informed and willing, and they generally are not. <br /><br />I may have been wrong about something. I keep saying that if the public schools knew how to do better, they would have done it by now, and they haven't. I'm starting to think that at least some of them know how, but CAN'T because of the rules and pressures defending the [unacceptable] status quo. That's what comes of having government operate the school system, IMHO. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-17837469254803979182014-10-20T12:52:26.050-05:002014-10-20T12:52:26.050-05:00Technically money is the only thing they need comm...Technically money is the only thing they need community approval for, so it is the only change people like ourselves see.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.rdale.org/pages/rdale/Academics" rel="nofollow">RDale Offerings</a>, techniques, etc have been changing occasionally as they try to balance the needs of the Lucky and Unlucky kids. Since the demographics are changing relatively rapidly, this is very challenging.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-19686194780812168492014-10-20T12:08:35.331-05:002014-10-20T12:08:35.331-05:00"Comparing costs is somewhat pointless, they ..."Comparing costs is somewhat pointless, they face entirely different challenges."<br /><br />And yet the only "solution" ever advanced by these failing schools is that of more money. And the state aid formula supposedly fully accounts for all of these challenges. It's certainly possible that the state's assessment of the extra costs due to poverty, non-English-speakers, etc. is incorrect, but if that were true then the schools should be telling the state that they NEED x$ more to bring these students up to their potential-- which of course is NEVER what they do. The amount of additional money requested never comes with a specific plan or promise of how to improve results. That's just wrong and guarantees continued failure.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-23069132032746053382014-10-20T09:20:46.813-05:002014-10-20T09:20:46.813-05:00I am the first to say that they can do some things...I am the first to say that they can do some things differently, especially in the area of personnel evaluation, compensation and retention. Unfortunately the Teachers Union and Administration contracts make this impossible.<br /><br />Here is some info on the Wayzata and Minneapolis Districts. Their data is easily accessible.<br /><a href="http://rc.education.state.mn.us/#demographics/orgId--028401000__p--3/orgId--000103000__p--3" rel="nofollow">Wayzata vs Minneapolis Demographics</a><br /><a href="http://rc.education.state.mn.us/#mySchool/orgId--028401000__p--1/orgId--000103000__p--1" rel="nofollow">Wayzata vs Minneapolis Summary</a><br /><br />Comparing costs is somewhat pointless, they face entirely different challenges. I mean 25% of the Minneapolis don't even speak English at the start.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-53683055728548457932014-10-19T21:24:30.874-05:002014-10-19T21:24:30.874-05:00OK, do it the other way. Say Providence spends th...OK, do it the other way. Say Providence spends the same as Minneapolis and gets twice the results. How is that not more cost-effective, and why can't Minneapolis do better? Are you really going to tell me that every single kid in Minneapolis is twice as hard to teach and requires twice the money as the average Minnesota kid? There is absolutely nothing the Mpls schools could do better for the same money?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-13546655287219849812014-10-17T23:59:32.099-05:002014-10-17T23:59:32.099-05:00I sure would hope they do exceedingly well.
By th...I sure would hope they do exceedingly well.<br /><br />By the time one adds <a href="http://www.providenceacademy.org/admissions/tuition_fees/" rel="nofollow">transportation and fees</a>, they cost almost as much as Minneapolis per student with almost none of the expensive kids.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-35410430604808368892014-10-16T14:23:42.140-05:002014-10-16T14:23:42.140-05:00Yes, and $10,000 is about half of $21,000. I assu...Yes, and $10,000 is about half of $21,000. I assume Providence also does better academically?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-89428152726914313642014-10-16T13:48:43.976-05:002014-10-16T13:48:43.976-05:00I come up with $20,000 per student with a special ...I come up with $20,000 per student with a special ed rate of almost 18.2%... And a FRR of nearly 65%...<br /><br /><a href="http://rc.education.state.mn.us/#demographics/orgId--000103000__p--3" rel="nofollow">MDE MPLS Demographics</a><br /><br />Please provide some examples of Privates that cost less. If there was a magic bullet, the charters like Laurie's should be thriving. They get public school funding without the Union issues from what I understand.<br /><br />My local private, Providence Academy, has the smartest and best students/parents available, and their tuition is well over $10,000 per year.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-90955965640851457132014-10-16T13:39:27.605-05:002014-10-16T13:39:27.605-05:00MPLS Budget Doc
MPLS Schools Wiki
Economic Demog...<a href="http://www.mpls.k12.mn.us/uploads/budgetbasics_english.pdf" rel="nofollow">MPLS Budget Doc</a><br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_Public_Schools" rel="nofollow">MPLS Schools Wiki</a><br /><br /><a href="http://studentaccounting.mpls.k12.mn.us/uploads/free_reduced_mealfall2013.pdf" rel="nofollow">Economic Demographics</a><br /><br /><a href="http://rc.education.state.mn.us/#demographics/orgId--999999000__p--3" rel="nofollow">MDE Demographics</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-50582177508901097382014-10-14T09:50:36.901-05:002014-10-14T09:50:36.901-05:00First of all, the $10,000 is a rough average. My ...First of all, the $10,000 is a rough average. My thought would be that the state aid would be whatever the current spending per pupil is in that district, so Minneapolis parents would be getting a $23,000 check, enabling them to go their current school, and allowing their current school to continue to do what they have been doing. The difference would be that parents and school officials alike would be looking for ways to get or to deliver "value" for that big check. (There would need to be a special provision for SE kids, and I think some reform of that whole program might be necessary.)<br /><br />Besides, what makes you think an average kid cannot be educated for $10,000? Other countries do it for a lot less. So do many parents.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-20403905932361885772014-10-13T15:00:31.846-05:002014-10-13T15:00:31.846-05:00Where in these does any school want the expensive ...Where in these does any school want the expensive kids for $10,000? Where do they go?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-87417496294532351872014-10-13T10:11:20.679-05:002014-10-13T10:11:20.679-05:00You are confusing "vouchers" with "...You are confusing "vouchers" with "universal vouchers." If the vouchers are universal, then EVERY parent gets school choice, immediately. Since there are limited alternatives to the public schools in many areas, poor areas especially (no money to be made from poor kids), many parents will be forced to sign over $10,000 checks to the public school. You don't think that will create an interest in most parents and change the dynamic? Parents will be watching the school to see that it delivers value, and watching their kids to see they get it. Private schools and charters will be looking for opportunities to step in and grab a piece of the now-lucrative market. The number of "unlucky" kids will suddenly drop to a very low number, unlucky only because we have systematically deprived them over however many years they have been in a failed school. <br /><br />And if you don't like that, here's another approach. Let's mandate that every school gets exactly the same amount of state aid (say the current average spending) per pupil. THEN, any school wanting to spend more can either raise local taxes (by vote, if possible) or go to the legislature with a proposal (and contract) for X$ for Y amount of student improvement. In the first years they would and should all be granted. After that, the State might start looking for new and better "contractors."jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-24699661979297631672014-10-13T02:06:01.659-05:002014-10-13T02:06:01.659-05:00Or we do this... G2A 2 - 7 School Model
Same pro...Or we do this... <a href="http://give2attain.blogspot.hk/2012/01/ras-2-7-school-model.html" rel="nofollow">G2A 2 - 7 School Model</a><br /><br />Same problem exists... What do we do with all the unlucky expensive kids?<br /><br />Vouchers just continue what charters, open enrollment, privates, better neighborhoods, etc have already begun. They all leave certain Publics with the unluckiest of kids, which increases their costs. <br /><br />Which enables someone like yourself to interpret with backwards logic that "more money yields worse results".<br /><br />The best solution would be how do we decentralize our areas of poverty? Not just busing kids to the burbs, how do we make it affordable for people to live there?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-14809775972304028732014-10-12T11:51:53.785-05:002014-10-12T11:51:53.785-05:00"Teaching people that are determined to learn..."Teaching people that are determined to learn is easy, Teaching people who are resistant or indifferent to learning is real real expensive."<br /><br />So, wouldn't it be cheaper to create an educational environment where those resistant to learning are "turned around" and want to learn, and segregating those few dead-heads actively preventing learning from the rest? Seems to me an effective universal voucher system accomplishes that.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-21179933695528758532014-10-11T08:10:35.252-05:002014-10-11T08:10:35.252-05:00Cristo Rey is focusing on the inputs...
They rejec...Cristo Rey is focusing on the inputs...<br />They reject or expel the expensive kids...<br />This is not an option for public schools..<br /><br />I agree that public schools and unions have room for improvement.<br /><br />Can you see that you are trying to compare apples and oranges?<br /><br />Teaching people that are determined to learn is easy, Teaching people who are resistant or indifferent to learning is real real expensive.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.com