Well folks, I am overdue on this post. I promised a commenter named Richard at MN Publius that I would do it last week. Then all kinds of exciting things happened and I put it off.
Now, I am an unrepentant Capitalist and a huge fan of Ayn Rand's Objectivism. As such I am pretty comfortable when the more Liberal or Socialistic folks are critical of these beliefs. However, Richard stunned me with a new label that I had never been called before. As usual, I was promoting shrinking Government, making it more effective, and minimizing any tax increases on all citizens. (ie especially on job providers and risk takers) This is when he called me a Fascist... Then I actually needed to ask him what that meant to him, since to me it was something that went away after WWII. So he sent me this link regarding the 14 points of Fascism.
Well apparently Richard thinks that the USA is quickly moving towards becoming a Fascist country. As compared to the many other Liberals that see the USA as being far to Capitalistic and not having enough safety nets. And the Conservatives that are worried that we are heading full speed ahead toward the destruction of becoming Socialistic or Communistic. As you know, personally I am in the Conservative camp on this one. My thoughts are in the ( ) below.
14 Points of Fascism (see descriptions in link above)
- Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism (I think Nationalism is important, but am a huge fan of Free Trade. I just don't see the fear of foreign people or products being an issue. We seem to have a healthy concern regarding the people that blew up our bldgs and citizens... Seems like a rational response.)
- Disdain for the importance of human rights (The ACLU is as strong as ever. Don't confuse Rights and Privileges. If you take advantage of Privileges they can and should be cancelled.)
- Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause (We have Poor and Middle Class folk picking on Rich. We have Tax payers picking on Public employees. And everyone else is picking on someone else or their least favorite Politician. It seems as chaotic and non-unified as ever. And Lord knows anyone can disseminate any information they want at any time.{even me})
- The supremacy of the military/avid militarism (We have a Democrat as Commander in Chief. Enough said... Though it may have been valid under the previous Administration.)
- Rampant sexism (Pro-Choice is still the law of the land, our Sec of State is a Woman and we have Women running for President. Don't see it.)
- A controlled mass media (You've got to be kidding. See number 3)
- Obsession with national security (some validity)
- Religion and ruling elite tied together (Which Religion and what tie? Don't see it.)
- Power of corporations protected (Enron, Arthur Andersen, Global Crossing, Bethlehem Steel, Lehman Brothers, Many Others. We still punish firms that fail to perform.)
- Power of labor suppressed or eliminated (Unions are fine: just don't force the workers to join or pay dues. And don't kill the golden goose.)
- Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts (Government may not pay for it, but I do not see any control of it. Let those that value it pay for it.)
- Obsession with crime and punishment (Don't see any outspoken Political folk in jail. Maybe on a few talk shows, or walking around Madison WI.)
- Rampant cronyism and corruption (I can't argue this one too hard given the Private Sector / Public Sector job swapping that goes on in both Parties. And the outrageous lobbying and "contributions". However I would argue it is pretty well out in the open. We just seem to put up with it as the way it is, as we re-elect the same folks. We can put an end to it at any time.)
- Fraudulent elections (Don't see it after the number of recounts we have endured in the last 10 yrs)
So you can see that Richard has not convince me... So:
- What do you think?
- Where are we heading?
- Why do you believe this?
- What scares you the most about this future?
Wow! What an interesting post, both the 14 points of fascism and your responses to them. Your brief reflection on each pt are very different from my thoughts and make you seem much more conservative than I have been estimating, based on all I've read so far.
ReplyDeleteIn addition to the traditional nationalism /dictator/
Hitler type definition of fascism, I have developed a vague sense that it is too much involvement of corporations in the govt. I probably picked this up reading left wing blogs. I think how I see our govt, especially what is wrong with our govt, is most accurately called Crony Capitalism (wikipedia) though Fascism, as defined by these 14 points, fits very well in my opinion, too.
Am I reading this right? It is good to be green and have a big number. Corruption Index
ReplyDeleteCommunism and capitalism have two things in common. First, neither one of them can survive strong centralized authority and second, neither one has ever been tried in its pure form. The Christians of Rome came close to the communist ideal, but of course they were not a nation or even a state unto themselves, just a "commune" by definition. The early United States was a largely capitalistic society, and during that time we grew from a tiny band of colonies to the worlds largest and most successful economy.
ReplyDeleteThe enemy, therefore, of both socialism and fascism is strong individual political and economic freedom, which is provided by capitalism. (Pure Communism does not work on a large scale.) Therefore the most instructive lesson here is that the accrual of more power in Washington DC is a bad thing and should be opposed. It isn't necessary to label that power grab as fascist or socialist unless it helps you sell the idea that freedom is better.
And I have to say that, despite what should be common cause, most leftists don't see socialism, or even Big Government Nanny-statism, as a threat. But put the "Fascism" label on exactly the same behavior and they run screaming into the streets. Odd, these leftists.
J. Ewing
John,
ReplyDeleteI reread through the 14 characteristics of fascism and your comments to confirm your low level of agreement that they are present in the USA. (I saw you had some agreement with #13 and a tiny hint of agreement that #7 and # 4 exist(ed) in America.) I, on the other hand, see many things I dislike about modern America reflected in every one of the 14 charateristics. To me, it is a matter of degree that these charactersistics are present and how strong their negative impact. I sorted them into 3 groups:
high negative impact: #4,9,10,13
medium negative impact: #2,3,7,12,14
lower negative impact:#1,5,6,8,11
The idea of color blindness popped into my head, as in how can you not see what I see when all of these characteristics are so readily apparent.
Finally, I will stick with my usual custom and include a link, this time to my favorite blog, Political Animal The linked post is about a small, recent illustration of characteristic #8,
"Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion."
My mother gets emails about this kind of stuff all the time- the In God We Trust motto on coins, ten commandments in the courts, prayer in the schools, Obama's religion etc. Playing to these issues helps the GOP keep the religious conservative part of their base engaged.
Nokomis,
ReplyDeleteI guess if Bush and the NeoCons were still in power, I may see your viewpoint better. However, they were replaced with a Democratic President. And I believe the Senate is still under Liberal control... From my studying, it appears this would not occur in a Fascist nation.
The question of colors may have to do with our Idealism / Realism balance & Naivety. I got in trouble at work ~5 yrs ago for taking our Company Values very literally. I had a very clear interpretation of what they meant and spoke out. Unfortunately a couple of Sr Mgrs disagreed with my interpretation. Thankfully I was given an opportunity to learn from the experience while staying gainfully employeed.
After some sole searching and study, I now understand that nothing is perfect in our human world. The Ideal is a vision that can help us stay headed in the right direction. However if you grade your Company or Country based on your personal vision of perfection, you will be sorely disappointed. All of us humans with different perceptions, goals, priciples, values, etc are sure to screw that up. Ironically, often with the best of intentions from our personal point of view.
This is why I pointed out that your link graded the USA as pretty good overall. Sometimes we need a Relative grading scale to protect us from our personalized Absolute scale.
By the way, I still don't see the personnel of my company being perfect with regard to following our values. However I will give us a 9 out 10 given my other employment experiences, and the fact that I am still there.
Don't be teasing us. Give your thoughts regarding each of the 14 points you find critical. And remember to grade America as a whole. Not just the Bush/NeoCon Republican party. And yes there are greedy self centered corrupt politicians in both parties. It is a hazard of being human.
By the way, you don't really think employees should be FORCED to join the entity's Union and pay Dues do you? That kind of fights the American Dream and Freedoms... Doesn't it?
J,
I thought it was fascinating that experts are unsure if Fascism is a Left or Right generated entity. The folks throwing the term around sure seem to tie it to the Right. Whereas I would see Ayn Rand pointing to the Left pretty firmly. At least based on Atlas Shrugged.
I forgot... Which God do you think we are trusting?
ReplyDeleteIt is definitely a pretty generic and all encompassing motto.
Probably hard to tie to one religion. It only leaves out the Atheists. (and maybe the Agnostics) Right?
Maybe what I see is a country that is not fascist, but instead has varying degrees of fascist elements.
ReplyDeleteMaybe tomorrow I will tackle more of what I see related to each characteristic, but for now I have one more link related to:
#4. Supremacy of the Military - "Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized."
Outside the Beltway, another favorite libertarian leaning blog, had comments on GOP 2012: return of the neo-cons (politico)
Even Obama looks like he is ready to take military action in Libya as well. I don't see how when our countries military is equal to the rest of the world combined that anyone can reasonable argue that #4 is not characteristic of our country.
Nokomis,
ReplyDeleteI look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on this. I see the the American Military and our use of it as a very strange thing. At least compared to other historical applications.
Most countries in the past conquered territories and funded the military through taxes that were raised. A country that uses the military as the World Police and pays the whole bill is very odd. I don't see Mussolini doing this...
As for Libya, where does that bleeding heart of yours go when you see rebels and by standers being indiscrinately killed because they want a voice in their Government. Oddly I was with J on this one, we should probably stay out of it. Yet here we go again in the name of Citizen Freedoms, Save the Down Trodden, and Stabilize the World Markets.
Others,
C'mon where do you see us going. You spend enough voicing concerns, you must have some thoughts, fears, hopes, etc.
John ,
ReplyDeleteAs requested, here are my (hastily written) thoughts on where the elements of fascism are on display in modern America.
#1 Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Besides the obvious in the aftermath of 911, I see it also in the ridiculous criticisms of Obama (the terrorist sympathizer) and his supposed refusal to say the pledge of allegiance correctly, wear a flag pin, and explicitly say "America is exceptional." I'll throw in here also, how some right wingers want to rewrite American history to suit their own vision of America. And did we really need to add "God Bless the USA" to the 7th inning stretch?
#2 Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: There's the obvious, policies developed allowing for torture under the Bush regime, and evidently continuing, to at least a small degree, with Obama (if the stories re Bradley Manning are to be believed) Alsothe high USA rate of incarceration seems like human rights issue to me.
#3 Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: i.e. immigrants, Muslims, gay people. No elaboration for now.
#4 Supremacy of the Military: see previous comment re huge pentagon budget and the resurgence of the neocons.
#5 Rampant Sexism: I'd say the attack on a woman's right to choose is pretty sexist. From today's news there's this GOP Bill Would Force IRS to Conduct Abortion Audits
Heck, many on the right want to limit access to contraceptives as well, in effort to influence women's lifestyles/level of sexual activity. I could also throw in conservative opposition to head start programs and all day K, due to their belief that mothers should be home full time raisng kids.
#6 Controlled Mass Media: Faux news. Palin, Uninterrupted: The Fox News Primary Continues And no, MSMBC's progressive journalists in the evening lineup do not make it the counterpart to Fox. And, not only does right wing radio dominate the airwaves, some of their callers could be hired to spout the desired talking points.
(most likely right wing, as GOP has more nefarious operatives)
#7 Obsession with National Security : Patriot Act. Also, 3,100 firms, agencies involved in war on terror
#8 Religion and Government are Intertwined: My point in previous comment was that one party uses religion pretty successfully to help win elections. Also religious conservative, in turn, try to impose their beliefs onto society in a variety of ways from laws re abortion and gay marriage to creationism in the schools and abstinince only sex ed. etc. Also, don't be dismissing the atheists and agnostics and their desire for separation of church and state. I go to church with a whole bunch of great people who identify with these labels.
From Nokomis
ReplyDeleteJohn ,
As requested, here are my (hastily written) thoughts on where the elements of fascism are on display in modern America.
#1 Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Besides the obvious in the aftermath of 911, I see it also in the ridiculous criticisms of Obama (the terrorist sympathizer) and his supposed refusal to say the pledge of allegiance correctly, wear a flag pin, and explicitly say "America is exceptional." I'll throw in here also, how some right wingers want to rewrite American history to suit their own vision of America. And did we really need to add "God Bless the USA" to the 7th inning stretch?
#2 Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: There's the obvious, policies developed allowing for torture under the Bush regime, and evidently continuing, to at least a small degree, with Obama (if the stories re Bradley Manning are to be believed) Alsothe high USA rate of incarceration seems like human rights issue to me.
#3 Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: i.e. immigrants, Muslims, gay people. No elaboration for now.
#4 Supremacy of the Military: see previous comment re huge pentagon budget and the resurgence of the neocons.
#5 Rampant Sexism: I'd say the attack on a woman's right to choose is pretty sexist. From today's news there's this GOP Bill Would Force IRS to Conduct Abortion Audits
Heck, many on the right want to limit access to contraceptives as well, in effort to influence women's lifestyles/level of sexual activity. I could also throw in conservative opposition to head start programs and all day K, due to their belief that mothers should be home full time raisng kids.
#6 Controlled Mass Media: Faux news. Palin, Uninterrupted: The Fox News Primary Continues And no, MSMBC's progressive journalists in the evening lineup do not make it the counterpart to Fox. And, not only does right wing radio dominate the airwaves, some of their callers could be hired to spout the desired talking points.
(most likely right wing, as GOP has more nefarious operatives)
#7 Obsession with National Security : Patriot Act. Also, 3,100 firms, agencies involved in war on terror
#8 Religion and Government are Intertwined: My point in previous comment was that one party uses religion pretty successfully to help win elections. Also religious conservative, in turn, try to impose their beliefs onto society in a variety of ways from laws re abortion and gay marriage to creationism in the schools and abstinince only sex ed. etc. Also, don't be dismissing the atheists and agnostics and their desire for separation of church and state. I go to church with a whole bunch of great people who identify with these labels.
To summarize... Those Republicans are Fascists?
ReplyDeleteGood thing we have a multi-party system and lots of media outlets.
So what word would the Liberals use to describe the behaviors and methods of the Democrats?
By the way, maybe there aren't many Liberal talk shows because ____???
My summary in part 2 of my comment on the 14 points, which won't stick (maybe due to bad links) answered 2 of your 3 questions.
ReplyDeleteWhy so little liberal talk radio is a tough one. The only reasons I can think of is station owners are more conservative or liberals prefer the blogs to get new opinionated news. Maybe we should bring back the fairness doctrine, abolished under Reagan. I just threw that in because conservatives hate that idea. I tried listening to conservative radio for awhile, but couldn't stick with it. Bill Bennet and Michael Medved, my drive time talkers. weren't bad, but usually some dumb caller would cause me to change the station.
Just email it to me and I can fix it up and post it.
ReplyDeletegive2get@live.com
Just an observation, here, that Nokomis' condemnations don't make any sense from my point of view, from where I stand. We're back to that "who knows the truth" thing. I'll issue point by point if necessary when I have more time.
ReplyDeleteJ. Ewing
From Nokomis,
ReplyDelete#9 Corporate Power is Protected: SCOTUS Citizens United decision. Wall Street bailout. Banks protected over consumers in mortage foreclosure crisis. See also #13.
#10 Labor Power is Suppressed: Read the daily news. It's all about removing one of the remaining major obstacles to corportations more complete take over of govt.
#11 Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Disdain for scientific research in many areas, most notably climate change denial.
#12 Obsession with Crime and Punishment; With more than 2.3 million people behind bars, the United States leads the world in both the number and percentage of residents it incarcerates, leaving far-more-populous China a distant second. And what's up with Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law
#13 Rampant Cronyism and Corruption: Lobbyists flock to Capitol Hill jobs
#14 Fraudulent Elections: Besides the stolen election of 2000, I see problems with the big money smear campaigns like the one that got Bush elected in 2004. Sure, both sides do it, but one side does it much better, and all the money involved does not help us choose the best leaders. I see voter suppression as another problem through vote caging and too restrictive voter ID laws.
In conclusion, while I see all these examples and more as fitting the charactersitics the author of the 14 points labels as fascism, I would stop well short of saying we are a fascist country. I guess I have implied that these "characteristics of fascism are to be found to a much greater extent in the GOP :) but, as they say, if the shoe fits.....
And, about your "colorblind" inability to see what is so clear to me, I guess I see the world through progressive lenses, so to speak, which make somethings look more brown than they actually are. I know my progressive interpretive guides (i.e columnists, bloggers, and MSNBC commentators) do a great job of pointing out the brown all around me (I think I am using "brown" to represents the shortcomings of capitalism and conservative ideology.) Anyhow, I am trying to see what I may be missing as I observe politics and current events and have sought out sources which may be able to point it out to me.
Sorry, Nokomis, but your #9 is just WAY off the mark. Nobody is denying that climate changes. Nobody who understands the science believes that humankind is causing it, and the EPA has now admitted it! I think it speaks to a lot of your other points, that what liberals have is a BELIEF in some of these canards that doesn't let them find objective truth in the matter. That's my opinion, but I find I cannot debate when the supporting "arguments" for the other side are things I know to simply not be true.
ReplyDeleteJ.Ewing
I am compelled to post: First of all, what is in a word? Fascism
ReplyDeletewill forever be equated with Hitler and everything seen as evil in the
world. Therefore, all 14 points as described must be inherently evil
in some way? In fact all of the 14 points indicate methods used to
establish control within a country. Is control bad? Certainly "out of
control" is not good. Anarchy would likely fit the opposite of all 14
points. Anarchy would be unabated freedom right?
So the real point here is not to have methods of control, but to have
the right level of control in the right areas so that people "feel
free."
A problem arises when we are attacked. The current level of control
has made us vulnerable and has had poor consequences. Therefore added
controls are put in place in order to ensure that the poor
consequences are not repeated. Unfortunately, this leads people to
"feel less free."
Control is a method to bring the current state back into alignment
with the desired state. Unfortunately, (or fortunately in a case to
promote diversity), the desired state strongly differs between
individuals and groups of people.
I consider myself to be a freedom loving person. I express this in
the form of fiscal conservativism (please spend my money wisely and on
things that are universal common goods) and as a social liberal
(please allow me to believe what I want, and I will do the same).
What I find dangerous, is not so much the controls that are put in
place to protect my safety, and the safety of our country, but those
that enforce a specific doctrine or world view.
Coming from Minnesota, it is easy to see the Republican party from a
non-religious standpoint. It is not tied to religion as strongly here
than in other parts of the country. However, in other parts of the
country, it is the party of Fundamental Christians and if there was
not strong opposition, I believe they would love to remove freedom of
religion from our Constitution and replace our Government with a
theocracy.
Yes, this is closely tied to George W (Not George Sr. I might Add)
Any of the 14 points that is imposed strongly by a group that would
like to control religion and the beliefs of their citizens in this way
is a direct threat to our Constitution, life liberty and the pursuit
of happiness.
So where are we now? Are we free? Are our thoughts free and
unhindered by the media and television we watch? Certainly not!
However, our media is relatively unhindered by government, The bias
here is generated based on cyclical reference. For example, the
reporter's circle of influence leans conservative, therefore they
reports are conservative, their circle watches/listens to their
reports, cycle repeats. Same goes for liberal bias. The best way to
remove some of this bias is to watch reports from varied sources that
are not in your normal influence circle.
In closing, it is not the 14 points that we should fear so much (in
moderation I’d say). What is dangerous is the promotion of a single
ideology or religious view as “American.” This is why George W and
Sarah Palin are not good for America. In my opinion, George Sr,
Obama, John McCain, Bill C, all would be just fine. My point being,
this is not a party line decision. It is a matter of personal freedom.