"John, education is NOT a nation top down standards. Education is a LOCAL issue with standards at the local level. Also, follow the money (national publishers & testing assessment companies)." Numbers GuyI personally think we need Common educational objectives, just like we need to maintain just one official language. Just think then maybe we could actually compare how the State and Local educational systems are performing.
"I am guessing that the global labor market disagrees. And local communities can always set their stds higher." John
Thoughts?
Common Core State Standards Initiative
CC by State
CC Math
CC English
Baltimore CC Protesters
WP 8 Problems with CC
ASCD CC Summary
About CC Pros / Cons
CC Voices of Support
AZ Daily CC Benefits
I always kind of liked the idea that we should have a national base of knowledge; that there are things that most or all of us should know, books that most or all of us have read.
ReplyDelete==Hiram
Here is a timely article.
ReplyDeleteCNN Duncan Under Fire
MN Against CC
ReplyDeleteMN DOE CC Status
MPR MN Proceeds with some CC
ReplyDeleteArne is an idiot.
ReplyDelete--Hiram
I find myself disagreeing with both sides. I disagree with the right. Having reviewed the standards, I find nothing objectionable in them, by themselves, other than the possibility that they were developed in some sort of "vacuum" by a bunch of pointy-headed intellectuals with no idea about what knowledge kids should or are best able to learn. I don't see it as a "national takeover" of curriculum, at least until (hopefully never) they publish science and (heaven forbid) social studies standards. I think the notion (not a real selling point for me) that textbooks and testing materials might be standardized would save money--nothing wrong with that. Most importantly, it appears that these standards are a big step up in rigor, beyond what we do today. It's almost as good as home schooling. :-> Maybe that's an objection?
ReplyDeleteI don't know what the left has to complain about, other than the fact that at its root, we are expecting schools to actually TEACH these more difficult things, when they can't even teach the simplistic curriculum they teach now. It's going to make the teachers' unions look really, really bad.
And then I found this:
ReplyDeletehttp://michellemalkin.com/2013/11/18/a-brown-skinned-suburban-mom-responds-to-common-core-bigot-arne-duncan/
The objection is not to the idea or even the standards as written, but the way in which the standards are being implemented and coerced onto everybody. Sort of like Obamacare.
Malkin CC Bigot
ReplyDeleteIt seems we are always asking for more bang for our buck... Then we turn around and say we want "local control"... I'll never understand.
ReplyDeleteIn MN we are paying to maintain ~370 unique school boards and administrations. Now this probably made a lot of sense before cars, phones and computers brought us all so close together. However in the modern global age, what is the point?
Global standards have been developed and are used for testing on a regular basis. NYT USA Lags Then we have this group of local yocals who demand that they somehow know better...
The biggest problem I have with this is that they didn't just use the existing "MAP" score ranges. They seem to be well respected in many communities. I mean RDale administers the test 2 or 3 times a year to ensure kids are making adequate progress. The only heart burn I have with this is that Parents then complain about too much testing when the MCA's roll around once a year.
NAEP By State
ReplyDeleteSee the conclusions on Pg 27 for a simple explanation of why we need national education standards.
Info on 10-14 is also interesting.
I don't think liberals generally object to common core standards, although MN thought our state math standards were better/ more rigorous.
ReplyDeletePer the graphs, it looks like MN standards were pretty good relative to most of the other states and the NAEP "basic" level. However they were still below the NAEP "proficient" level.
ReplyDeleteMy guess is that this is less of a Liberal / Conservative issue. It is likely the "Libertarians of both persuasions" that are fighting it. They tend to dislike any Federal standards, even common sense ones like this.
I mean people like to say their state's education system is good, however how does one tell when they are all using different tape measures...
Maybe we should all set are temperature gauges different. Then we could explain to everyone that it is warm and sunny in MN in January... "Come vacation in MN where our temperature gauge reads 80 degrees..."
Again, I think we are missing the point. Objective, high national standards in the ideal are great. The problem is that they are national and the federal government is supposed to have "no role in education," and that these standards are being imposed through the "RACE TO THE TOP" program with all the care and efficiency of Obamacare. It's snatching disaster from the jaws of excellence. Personally, I think there is a place for federal education departments, confined to locating best practices in the states and letting everybody know what they are. I'm not certain that even the Common Core, as written, would meet that requirement.
ReplyDeleteAnd I DO think "local control" is exceedingly important, insofar as HOW these standards are reached, and for how and what "soft subjects" are taught. Imagine a national history curriculum created by Obama and his community activist crowd? Or Pol Pot?
So are you then a fan of MN having its own temperature scale?
ReplyDeleteI am not sure how we would get 50 states and 1000's of districts to develop good consistent standards.
And no one has even mentioned standards for social studies, history, political science, etc. Just English and Math for now...
And I hope Science at some time in the future. However I am sure those evolutionists and creationists will have heartburn at that time.
I think people keep forgetting that winning at modern global competition requires our citizens to be very smart and creative. Using local standards is a sure way to doom a bunch of American citizens to poverty.
MinnPost Choice and Centralization
ReplyDeleteI didn't find the minnpost link very helpful. I wonder how many mn charter schools enroll students by lottery. The charters I am familiar with maybe have certain grade levels at which no new students are accepted. None have needed a lottery.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I believe Mpls and St. Paul have the highest funding levels in the state and charters receive less $. I have often wondered how my charter school funding compares to MPS.
Last, setting state or national standards is distinct from assessing standards with state or national assessments. How the assessments are used is where you get some push back from some liberals (me)
I don't think Minnesota should have its own temperature scale, and that's a badly flawed analogy. You're talking about MEASUREMENT. Common Core is about what we measure-- aspects of knowledge-- and the big argument is over how we produce it. So the analogous situation would be allowing the Northeast to heat with oil, Texas with natural gas, and the western states with coal.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think you have it backwards. Setting national standards is a sure way to doom creativity. If we all know the same things, none of us learns anything new. What is dooming us is the fact that our public school systems don't teach ANYTHING. Setting the bar higher doesn't make a one-legged high jumper any better.
I guess I don't see anything in Common Core that mandates certain curriculum, processes, methods, etc.
ReplyDeleteThey really don't care what you heat with as long as the out is correct. (ie measurement)
Of course you don't "see it," and that's the problem. If you look at most of the objections, you won't see one against the particular standards that now exist. The objections are to having the federal government "demand" them (through RTTT) rather than "offer" them, to assuming government was competent or trustworthy to even assemble them, to the idea that standards in the "soft subjects" (like Social Studies, that might be corrupted by government control) may follow, to the idea of imposed common testing regimens that dominate the curriculum-- you were the one who objected to "teaching to the test," as I recall-- and that the new standards will be difficult and costly to achieve-- "a wrenching change."
ReplyDeleteOnce again, my objections are two-- that we cannot trust the federal government to offer this "product" voluntarily for what it's worth, and that our schools cannot possibly live up to those high standards because they have thus far failed to reach the miserably low standards already before them.
I see no one demanding. What am I missing?
ReplyDeleteNot demanding so much as "dangling a huge and deadly carrot." RTTP money is conditioned on Common Core acceptance. The other things included with Common Core in getting the federal money constitute a "federal takeover of education" and any further standards-- which it sounds as if are coming-- will constitute a massive federal brainwashing opportunity. Heaven knows it's bad enough already, when US history is taught through the prism of its "oppressed peoples."
ReplyDeletehttp://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/17/opinion/la-ed-race-to-the-top-common-core-curriculum-20130617
ReplyDeleteInteresting. The Left's biggest concern seems to be that Common Core/RTTT will actually work.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/diane-ravitch/obamas-race-to-the-top-wi_b_666598.html
I really didn't expect this so soon...
ReplyDeletehttp://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2013/11/dupo-fourth-graders-in-dupo-illinois-are-reading-a-biography-of-barack-obama-thats-raising-eyebrows-among-st-clair-county.html
LA Times RTTT CC
ReplyDeleteHP RTTT
Dupo 4th Graders Read Obama Biography
I'll have to read these later, however is ii odd that kids would be reading about the sitting President?
And they are going to be tested on the their understanding of the content... Oh my...
ReplyDeleteI did get through the bio article... Some folks really need to get a life...
The LA Times article is kind of funny. You would think that the CC Reqts were mandating the teaching of new coursework from all their moaning about needing new curriculum and not measuring Teachers during the roll out.
ReplyDeleteIt is Math and English people...
Or are the CC Reqts far different from what the ACT and SAT test???
Very interesting...
The Ravitch piece is the most interesting one, though I don't agree with her 100%
ReplyDeleteLaurie, I looked further into Ravitch and you are right. She is a hoot! A fine example of the Loony Left that dominates the Education Establishment.
ReplyDeleteAlso, reading between the lines, RTTP is just an Obama-run version of NCLB, meaning that the "teeth" in the NCLB law-- reconstituting failing schools, offering alternatives, performance pay and charters-- are bound to be even less effective (iow, meaningless). Obama only enforces the laws he likes, and RTTP isn't even a law.
You seem to forget that she was well respected by both the Bush Presidents.
ReplyDeleteWiki Diane Ravitch
She definitely does speak some truths...
ReplyDelete"Her book The Language Police (2003) was a criticism of both left-wing and right-wing attempts to stifle the study and expression of views deemed unworthy by those groups. The Amazon.com review summarizes Ravitch's thesis as "pressure groups from the political right and left have wrested control of the language and content of textbooks and standardized exams, often at the expense of the truth (in the case of history), of literary quality (in the case of literature), and of education in general." Publishers Weekly wrote: "Ravitch contends that these sanitized materials sacrifice literary quality and historical accuracy in order to escape controversy.""
"You seem to forget that she was well respected by both the Bush Presidents."
ReplyDeleteHow often have I said something to the effect that "just because I am a conservative, does that make me wrong?" It doesn't make her right.
From the piece I read, she is defending the unions and status quo against innovation and competition and accountability, and that's just wrong, IMHO.
I think she is more like me, she agrees that schools can be improved. However she realizes that there are many other factors in play. G2A Factors
ReplyDeleteWhereas you seem to continue believing that the schools are the majority of the problem and that the beatings should continue until things improve.
I think we need a blend of carrots and sticks. Change Mgmt Resistance
Yes, she agrees that the most important factor is a good teacher in every classroom, and then proceeds to deny that teachers should be evaluated based on performance, or that competition is the best and perhaps only way to offer alternatives to poor performing teachers.
ReplyDeleteI come back to the same question time and again. If the educrats knew how to improve education, they would have done it, so why have they not?
Where you and I disagree is in the efficacy of reform efforts. You seem to want to excuse schools until we somehow cure poverty. I want to accept poverty as it is and reform that which the political system has control over, which is the schools.
I didn't get the sense that she is out to protect poor Teachers. She just doesn't seem to see focusing obsessively on Math, English, and Charters as the solution.
ReplyDelete"There will be even less time available for the arts, science, history, civics, foreign language, even physical education. Teachers will teach to the test. There will be more cheating, more gaming the system."
"Furthermore, charter schools on average do not get better results than regular public schools, yet Obama and Duncan are pushing them hard. Duncan acknowledges that there are many mediocre or bad charter schools, but chooses to believe that in the future, the new charters will only be high performing ones. Right."
Not in those words, no. But by removing the "teeth" of education reform-- the threat of moving kids to charter or other schools-- she removes any incentive the public schools have for improving. It is still true that teachers (and even moreso, administrators) get paid the same (or more) whether the kids learn or not, and that's just not good enough. Furthermore, the concern for all subjects other than English and Math is misplaced. If Common Core has that effect, then local control, which Common Core displaces, would be the right solution. Conversely, if the kids haven't been taught English and Math, why are the schools wasting time on all that other stuff?
ReplyDeleteOh, Laurie, to your point? Arne Duncan was G. W. Bush's Sec. of Education. That doesn't make him right, does it?
I may change my mind. I thought the math standards, at least, looked fairly rigorous and straightforward, and it was the way they were being forced down our throats that was the problem. Apparently both are problematic.
ReplyDeletehttp://commoncoremn.com/the-facts/
Common Core MN: The Facts
ReplyDeleteIt would have been nice if they had their sources for each supposed "fact"...
ReplyDeleteBased on the NAEP / CC links I have provided here, it seems their "facts" are a bit subjective.
In the political sphere, opinions ARE a fact and must be considered. If people are worried about national control of curriculum, there should be a healthy skepticism of any federal program, especially when money is dangled as the incentive. The more I read, the more I believe that these "standards," and all of the control they imply, are dangerous to education rather than helpful. And that's a fact.
ReplyDeleteBTW, Mass. is now withdrawing from CC, making 15 states so far.
Some recent articles:
ReplyDeleteUS News CC Assessments
Ravitch: Tests and Opt Out
State Driven CC Reqts
Ed Excellence CC Points
I looked and could not find anything from a credible source that mentioned Mass opting out.
Oh, so now it is "credible" sources you want? Credible according to whom?
ReplyDeleteYou need to expand your reading list.
http://blog.heritage.org/2013/11/22/cracks-core-massachusetts-halts-common-core-implementation/?utm_source=heritagefoundation&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=&utm_content=&utm_source=heritagefoundation&utm_medium=email&utm_content=headline&utm_campaign=saturday131130
Heritage Mass Halts CC Implementation
ReplyDelete"Halts" seems like overkill ... Since they have simply delayed.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes Heritage is to Liberals as Mother Jones is to Conservatives...
This one looks less biased and does mention the Mass delay. I must have missed it in my searches last night. WP More States Delay CC Implementation
ReplyDeleteThere seem to be 2 issues. Some question the standards and others worry about how they can clear the aggressive bar.