Erin has an interesting post at MinnPost Then Joe insulted the education folk, so I had to step in to defend them...
Of course I do love Charles Sykes Rules of Life though and wish Parents and Schools taught then.
"I hope at some point Americans wake up and once again demand that public High Schools get back to preparing our children for the real life of competition in the job market. Teaching the trades (yes folks, some people work with their hands in the real world), teaching the basics (hard to get a job if you can’t speak English, do math, read and write) and teach problem solving.
The years and years of social engineering, coddling little Jimmy and Jane to make sure they feel good about their failing grades, teachers and school districts being more concerned about what children are learning than actually having the children learning how to learn and being afraid to tell students that when 8 people are competing for 4 high paying jobs the owner will hire the most capable.
Competition drives the workforce and business, being afraid of teaching that has us where we are as a country with High School students.
We are currently 35th in the world in educating our children, we were number one in the 70’s into the 80’s. You would think with the Trillions we spend on public education, we might be better. Sad to say nothing will change until tax payers demand more from their money and the Teachers Union gets back to students first and advocating 2nd." Joe
"Now as most here know, I am no fan of tenure, steps, lanes, senior teachers picking their schools / classrooms, etc... However the idea of blaming this disaster primarily on schools is just silly. :-)
Look on the graph at the top of this source for the root cause of the academic achievement gap.
Single Parent Household Graph
Now the question is what are we as a society going to do to reduce the number of unplanned conceptions, encourage 2 Parent households, hold Parents accountable for fulfilling their responsibilities?
Here is one of my favorite comics regarding the topic.
Teaching: Then and Now" G2A
Of course I do love Charles Sykes Rules of Life though and wish Parents and Schools taught then.
Higher graduation rates means lower proficiency rates. It means we are working harder to keep the more challenging students in school.
ReplyDeleteSo we have two goals that work against each other. Proficiency vs. graduation. Which should be the priority? Which do we want more?
--Hiram
In the real world, I am not that interested in the numbers. It's something I leave to others. The problem I see is sort of enacapsulated by the problems the Olympics are having. The Olympics were so concerned with winning, they put those goals ahead of the interests of the athletes. They lost the sense of what the goals of the Olympic movement were, to bring the youth of the world together. In educational terms, I submit, the goal of our schools shouldn't be to generate numbers, which are so easily manipulated, so easily present us with false choices, the goal should be to teach our kids.
ReplyDelete--Hiram
God grant me the serenity
ReplyDeleteto accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Can schools do better? Is that under "our" control? Can we turn society's moral compass around on a dime and remedy past mistakes? How about we change the things we CAN change, first, and then start the long, hard task of dealing with those things we should not accept?
Oh sure, schools can do better. They are a lot better than they used to be. As for society's moral compass and the turning around of it, we elected Trump, and that's not a good sign. I hope his picture isn't found much on schoolroom walls.
ReplyDeleteHow to improve our schools? An excellent question. Why not ask it more?
--Hiram
I grow weary of asking, and of telling our legislators. It seems to me the only solution is "universal vouchers" that will break the back of the union/educrat public school monopoly. Parents will finally have the ability to judge and select a school based on how well it educates their child, rather than being forced into the nearest public school. Schools already doing well will continue to thrive, and those doing poorly will have a few years to "get their act together" before competition moves in and puts them out of business.
ReplyDeleteIt's enough that I have to pay for one school system. I resist the notion of paying for four or five of them. Subsidizing education sideshows hasn't worked in the past and shows no signs of working in the future.
ReplyDeleteWe don't of course, force our kids into public schools, let alone, the nearest ones. Maybe our schools would be better if we did.
--Hiram
So, are you happy about paying for a single school system that costs twice as much and produces one-half the results?
ReplyDeleteActually, we DO force kids into the public schools. It is required by law that they go to school, and it is "free." It is a virtual monopoly that, only if you are rich enough, you can avoid.
Source please...
ReplyDelete"a single school system that costs twice as much and produces one-half the results"
Please provide information regarding a school that does better with the exact same mix of students, parents, community, etc.
The charter data I have reviewed is pretty conclusive, there is no miracle school out there. Success comes down to Parents, Students and community.
I do agree that our Public schools could be more effective and efficient, but they will never fix this societal problem by themselves.
Sorry, I am referencing a study you have not seen, an analysis of all MN school Districts by spending per pupil versus MN basic skills test results for reading and math. The trend and comparisons are clear.
ReplyDeleteAnd sorry, but the State constitution specifies, in Article XIII; Sec. 1: "Uniform system of public schools – The stability of a republican form of government depending mainly upon the intelligence of the people, it is the duty of the legislature to establish a general and uniform system of public schools. The legislature shall make such provisions by taxation or otherwise as will secure a thorough and efficient system of public schools throughout the state."
Nowhere does it say that demography matters. It says "uniform," "thorough and efficient." By any measure, can you say our public schools are "uniformly" meeting their obligation?
Jerry,
ReplyDeleteNo sources... No credibility...
It seems to me that you are leaning a bit socialist here...
Demanding equal outcomes and not equal opportunities...
Source: Minnesota Department of Education comprehensive annual report.
ReplyDeleteI am leaning towards following the Constitution. Can anyone say that a 50% dropout rate, At a cost twice the state average, is provided by a "thorough and efficient" system??
I think you will need to be more specific...
ReplyDeleteAnd now you need to provide a source for that 50% drop out comment.
Here is the Mpls District Info.
I see my error, thanks. 1) I was using old data, from 2012, and 2) I should have said "failed to graduate on time" instead of "dropout." So, 67% is "better." But has that come about because we are teaching better? Why, if they can do this much better in 4 years, did they not do it sometime in the previous 20? Might it have something to do with elimination of the HS graduation test requirement, meaning the "graduation rate" is phony because the kids still haven't learned? Do you think GM would succeed if one of every three Chevrolets didn't run? Or if half of them didn't work properly?
ReplyDeleteI'll repeat again... GM has control over it's inputs... And total control during the production process.
ReplyDeletePublic schools have to do the best with what ever screwed up child the BM or BD gives them. Worse yet they have very limited access to the child compared to the time the screwed up BM / BD and their community do even after the child starts school.
Smart companies like GM may buy substandard "inputs," Like ± .04 rolled steel, because it is cheaper. Then they are smart enough to "remediate" By running it through sizing rollers. Schools get Their "inputs" for "free" but they getmore money to do this remediation, yet largely fail at doing it.
ReplyDeleteIn other words there is no excuse for the schools not to perform the tasks for which they are being so well-paid unless you GIVE them one. And so long as you keep allowing them to say that poor black kids cannot learn, you are going to find that poor black kids are not learning. Just because you lower the standards does not mean that more kids are getting a good education. Someday, something needs to disrupt this "system."
I agree, we should ensure all kids are kindergarten ready with responsible qualified mature Parents at home.
ReplyDeleteCurrently it is like GM is getting roller marked pot sheet metal rather than flat smooth high quality steel sheet metal.
I think you missed the point. GM remediates its inputs. Many public schools do not have the need. Too many do, and fail at it. Again, the Mississippi schools with which I am familiar had every kid pretty much at the same level, regardless of demographic, by the third grade. And without Kindergarten. Is Mississippi that much better at educating than Minneapolis? Here, the longer kids are in school the farther behind international competition they fall.
ReplyDeleteSame old same old... Mississippi has terrible results... But please feel free to maintain your nostalgia.
ReplyDeleteAs for production processes, this is where I live and I can guarantee that modern manufacturing facilities hold suppliers responsible for all "costs of poor quality". If the parts come in outside the limits of the drawing and/or other specifications, they are returned to the supplier or the rework costs are charged back to the supplier.
It is a good example though in one way, my facility can deal with some part quality problems through adjusting schedules, rework, return to vendor, etc. So at 1% quality defects we function fine, at 5% we struggle mightily and at 10% it is a disaster.
That is kind of like the schools:
- 0 to 20% unlucky kids - function fine
- 20% to 40% unlucky kids - struggle
- 40% + unlucky kids - disaster
Nostalgically, there was a time when our public schools actually educated. I find many kids today who cannot spell or write a proper sentence, for example. Is that a reason to simply accept that failure?
ReplyDeleteI have the same experience, and I can tell you that sometimes we pay less for poor quality and then adjust for it (which costs us something, but less). I remember one Japanese supplier that was told we would accept "no more than 6 defects per 10,000 units." When the first ten thousand units arrived, it was 20 pallets and one small box. In the box was a note that said, "we hope these are the six defects you wanted."
Schools do not have the luxury of specifying or controlling their inputs, they MUST remediate and adapt their processes. They don't. Why do you insist they cannot?
They can and they do, however without the support of responsible Parents...
ReplyDeleteSome kids will fail.
They can and they do, but the question is, since they spend so much more to do so, shouldn't results be better, regardless of "input quality"? The State Aid formula supposedly fully compensates for these disadvantaged students, yet our achievement gap is one of the highest in the nation. That cannot be anything but the fault of the local schools; our poor black kids are not any poorer or blacker than anybody else's.
ReplyDeleteI will grant that poverty and parenting matter. I am unwilling to accept that these kids are throwaways.
On what basis do you make this assumption?
ReplyDelete"State Aid formula supposedly fully compensates for these disadvantaged students"
The reason our achievement gap is the highest in the nation is not because our unlucky students are worse... It is because our lucky students our better.
10 Best States
10 Best and 10 Worst
"I am unwilling to accept that these kids are throwaways."
ReplyDeleteOf course you are... You may want to save a few more by helping them run from their unfortunate truly unlucky peers. But when push comes to shove you are happy to continue to leave the truly unlucky kids trapped in their poverty with irresponsible BMs and BDs.
That is the result of people being free to run from them... be it through moving, open enrolling, going to magnets, etc. That is why the schools you term "failing" are failing... The vast majority who can have already run. Thus leaving the truly unfortunate in a high enough density that they continue to fail.
You endlessly fight to ensure these "kids are throwaways"...
You endlessly fight against holding their BMs and BDs accountable...
Thus leaving these kids trapped...
Don't kid yourself... :-(
I wonder if it is your blind hate and distrust of government that makes it so?
ReplyDeletequite the opposite. It is my deep understanding of human nature. "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink." You can kick a mule until your foot hurts but you can't make him stand up. People react to positive incentives and resent punishment. Where your article suggests reasonable positive incentives they should be done, but the hubris of suggesting that local businesses should dip in their own pocket to help government solve its problems is beyond the pale. And any suggestion of punishing people for not doing what government thinks they ought to do is going to invite resistance rather than cooperation. Not only is it counterproductive, but ineffective and would drive out positive behaviors rather than create them. What I find really strange is this notion that a few pennies added to a welfare check or cut off of the grocery bill would substantially alter behavior, but handing the parent a $13,000 check to get an education for the child would not.
ReplyDelete"… you are happy to continue to leave the truly unlucky kids trapped in their poverty with irresponsible BMs and BDs." That is a scurrilous lie. I do what I can, but I am having to fight the big-government "system" at every turn. I cannot fight poverty AND government all by myself.
ReplyDeleteThese kids are not trapped with their parents, they were born with their parents. Where they are trapped is in the public school system.
I wish you would stop using that word "accountable." Every time I hear that word it sounds like we are going to jail parents for making the only choice available to them.
Of course you are happy to keep them trapped, and worse yet you are unwilling to do anything to help ensure accidental pregnancies are minimized.
ReplyDeleteWell except to hope the BM and BD teach them "sex is bad"... Which is pointless since many of those BMs and BDs made the kids during pre-marital sex.
These children are certainly trapped with their BM / BD and the resultant poverty.
Do you see them as being free to move to a responsible family with 2 Parents who ensure:
- they are fed, washed and clothed
- they live in a stable nurturing home
- they live in a safe community
- they are read to and experience pre-school, museums, etc
- they observe positive role models
- they pushed to do homework, behave, learn, etc
So until you are willing to hold individuals accountable for being responsible Parents. You certainly advocating for keeping those poor babies trapped in a terrible situation.
As for how to hold BMs and BDs accountable, here are some useful discussions.
HP Punish Parents?
WAPO Punish Parents?
Ed Week Accountable
OK, here is what I found:\
ReplyDelete"...hold responsible, yes, punish, no."
"hold responsible" means enforcing existing truancy laws. A minor part of the problem IMHO.
"I just don’t see how such draconian measures would have such a positive effect and, in fact, they would likely have the exact opposite effect."
"It would seem that a better approach would be to encourage good parenting behavior rather than punish bad parenting behavior."
"If we assume that just about all parents love their children [as we must] and want to give them the necessary opportunities to experience academic success, we need to figure out what’s preventing them from doing what’s right and then give them the support they need to do what’s right. " Hear, hear.
"Parents who ... attend parent-teacher conferences every month, ... should enjoy ... credits toward tuition-assistance programs when their kids go off to college." Why wait? Give the parent a voucher for a good education right away! It raises an interesting idea that might inherently be part of the voucher program, which is that schools could mandate a certain amount of parental involvement, attendance and good behavior as a condition of accepting the student. This would need to be tempered with rules against cherry-picking, of course, and that again leveled against still allowing the best students to pick the best schools. "But KIPP will not enroll students unless their parents first sign a contract that spells out their responsibility."
"So until you are willing to hold individuals accountable for being responsible Parents. You certainly advocating for keeping those poor babies trapped in a terrible situation."
ReplyDeletethere is just so much wrong with that statement.
First, I have long believed that any time one uses the word "you" in a post, one is probably being insulting, as well as wrong.
Second, the word "accountable" does not have a specific, agreed definition and therefore does not advance this discussion.
Third, the term "responsible parents" probably means vastly different things to different people, especially if one attempts to put this "responsibility" on a scale.
Finally, say for the sake of argument [and it WILL be an argument] that I want to "Trap these babies in a terrible situation." That would be wrong so, how, exactly are you going to "un-trap" them?