Christianity Today Trump Should Be Removed from Office. It’s time to say what we said 20 years ago when a president’s character was revealed for what it was.
NYT Trump Impeachment Trial in Doubt as Democrats Weigh Withholding Articles
FOX McConnell: 'Impasse' over Trump impeachment trial, as Dems depart from precedent
NBC Trump blasts evangelical magazine after it calls him 'profoundly immoral,' seeks his removal
I listened to the Editor of CT being interviewed today. He made a good comparison. Trump is like a somewhat verbally abusive husband who the wife stays with because he is a good provider for her and their children. The challenge is that with time he slowly grows more abusive of her and the children. At what point should she leave him because he shows no signs of remorse or improvement?
A quote from CT that proves at least they are NOT Hypocrites like many Trump supporters. I mean if lying to the people was bad when Clinton was in office, why is it acceptable for Trump to do so?
This concern for the character of our national leader is not new in CT. In 1998, we wrote this:
NYT Trump Impeachment Trial in Doubt as Democrats Weigh Withholding Articles
FOX McConnell: 'Impasse' over Trump impeachment trial, as Dems depart from precedent
NBC Trump blasts evangelical magazine after it calls him 'profoundly immoral,' seeks his removal
I listened to the Editor of CT being interviewed today. He made a good comparison. Trump is like a somewhat verbally abusive husband who the wife stays with because he is a good provider for her and their children. The challenge is that with time he slowly grows more abusive of her and the children. At what point should she leave him because he shows no signs of remorse or improvement?
A quote from CT that proves at least they are NOT Hypocrites like many Trump supporters. I mean if lying to the people was bad when Clinton was in office, why is it acceptable for Trump to do so?
This concern for the character of our national leader is not new in CT. In 1998, we wrote this:
The President's failure to tell the truth—even when cornered—rips at the fabric of the nation. This is not a private affair. For above all, social intercourse is built on a presumption of trust: trust that the milk your grocer sells you is wholesome and pure; trust that the money you put in your bank can be taken out of the bank; trust that your babysitter, firefighters, clergy, and ambulance drivers will all do their best. And while politicians are notorious for breaking campaign promises, while in office they have a fundamental obligation to uphold our trust in them and to live by the law.
And this:
Unsavory dealings and immoral acts by the President and those close to him have rendered this administration morally unable to lead.
Unfortunately, the words that we applied to Mr. Clinton 20 years ago apply almost perfectly to our current president. Whether Mr. Trump should be removed from office by the Senate or by popular vote next election—that is a matter of prudential judgment. That he should be removed, we believe, is not a matter of partisan loyalties but loyalty to the Creator of the Ten Commandments.
VOX Why CT piece will not matter
ReplyDeleteReligion is a forgiveness factory. Religious people comfort themselves with the thought that whatever awful things they do, it's okay because when it's done they can always be forgiven. Atheists don't have that luxury.
ReplyDelete--Hiram
Some people get their theology from Saint Augustine, or Thomas Aquinas. As their annual New Years Day marathon nears, I am reminded that I get my theology from "The Twilight Zone". In the Twilight Zone, at least in memory, there are lots of episode about people who make deals with the devil. The long range consequences of these deals are always awful, but in the short term, what I have noticed is that the devil, unlike his opposition, always delivers. Yesterday we saw this dynamic play out in a very stark way. Christians, in voting for Donald Trump, made their very own deal with the devil, just as if they were Larry Blyden dealing with Sebastian Cabot. Yesterday, the exact nature of the deal was made clear by a Christian magazine editor who rang the bell just before going out the door. He said, which was apparent to us all, that we have elected a profoundly immoral man as president, in exchange for tax cuts, and partisan judges, and for a general undermining of our constitution, our democracy and our way of life. As if this wasn't enough, the subject of the transaction stripped away any possibility of self delusion explaining in just about the clearest terms possible the tawdry and transnational nature of the deal. I can almost see Sebastian Cabot laughing at the end of the episode.
ReplyDelete--Hiram
You certainly give Trump credit for being more powerful and capable than I do.
ReplyDeleteI agree that he signed a tax cut bill that the GOP Congress passed. This likely would have happened no matter which GOPer was President. I mean Reagan, Bush and Bush did similar.
Pretty much all he has done is nominate Judges that are more Conservative in nature than you would prefer, play the victim by lashing out, spend like a Democrat, reduce the number of regulations, pull us out of international agreements and stone wall investigations.
He seems like a pretty wimpy Devil.
As for a "general undermining of our constitution, our democracy and our way of life" seems way beyond his capability.
As for those religious people, personally I think that they believe they are doing the wonderful thing, not the awful thing. So there will be no need for forgiveness.
ReplyDeleteI mean in their eyes murdering ~600,000 fetus a year, supporting unnatural / out of marriage sexual relations and rewarding the lazy is definitely the work of the devil and will lead to end of our nation.
I have to review this further.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with single issue voting is that it justifies evil. How many times have I heard that it's okay to vote for a grossly immoral man in league with Russia because he chooses judges who will lie about their abortion agenda?
On Thursday, Christianity Today called the president profoundly immoral and unfit to be president. What's interesting is that not one of the people who have come to the president's defense has even addressed that issue, let alone denied the claims.
--Hiram
This piece does a good job of discussing the situation.
ReplyDelete"Since there appears to be no chance the Republican-controlled Senate will remove the president from office once he goes on trial following his impeachment by the House, evangelicals will be confronted with this choice when we vote in the next presidential election:
Do we support a painfully brash and unpredictable president who violates our morals but defends some of our values?
Or do we support the presidential candidate nominated by the Democratic Party, which has expressed open disdain for our sincerely held views?
It’s a complicated scenario, confronting us with two imperfect choices. And since the Democrats are a long way from selecting their nominee, it strikes me as an impossible choice to make until we know who President Trump will be running against and can examine that person’s record and values closely.
In the meantime, I think supporting Trump while simultaneously speaking out against his sometimes disturbing rhetoric is healthy. So is finding areas of praise for the president when you aren’t a fan. Our nation, after all, is called the United States – not the Divided States.
Few political candidates are entirely bad or entirely good. When we step into the voting booth we are sometimes forced to choose between the lesser of two evils."
Progressives paved this road of apathy and desperation
ReplyDeleteMuch of the critique surrounding evangelicals and Trump is predicated upon liberals’ claims that Christians have simply abandoned our principles. But the reality is much more complex.
A progressive cohort has held disdain for Christian values, either openly mocking or outright criticizing evangelicals’ beliefs about the importance of integrity and values in the public square. This mockery – teamed with an obsessive and oft-times ill-understood view of the separation of church and state – has consistently peppered our political discourse.
Now the same people who held such open disdain when evangelicals wished to see our views reflected in the public square are complaining that Christians have suddenly changed course and are no longer wedded to the morality we once demanded in our politics.
It’s a prime example of what happens when one cries wolf for decades and then gets what he or she endlessly wished for. In many ways, evangelicals are choosing to separate politics from their theology – the very thing that was previously demanded of us.
Cultural messages are eclipsing our values
ReplyDeleteOne doesn’t need to look too far to see that the underbelly of our culture is slowly rotting away. Hopelessness abounds, as we abandon solidified values rooted in truth in exchange for social relativism And Christians, too, have fallen prey to this paradigm.
In 2011, just 30 percent of white evangelicals said “elected officials can still perform their public duties in an ethical manner even if they have committed immoral personal acts.” Somehow, though, that proportion skyrocketed to 72 percent in a 2016 survey.
There are many theories as to why this change unfolded, with some blaming the Trump effect.
Evangelicals are feeling the pressure
Beyond the “terrible options” scenario is the fact that our culture has rapidly changed over the past few years, eschewing traditional values and diminishing core Christian positions. What was once considered a normative perspective can now be disqualifying, with the outrage police working overtime to ensure that everyone complies with culture’s new codes of conduct.
Meanwhile, the Democratic Party has moved to the far, far left on issues like abortion, with Democratic candidates perceived as so extreme that Trump – whether or not he has authentic convictions on these matters – seems like the only viable option.
ReplyDeleteProgressives paved this road of apathy and desperation
It's what we were doing when we weren't trying to deliver affordable health care.
--Hiram
You know, there is nothing stopping people from opening up churches in public squares. Many churches are in public squares, or conveniently located nearby. I have never understood why Sean Hannity who gripes about the elimination of religion from out public discourse doesn't open his show with prayer.
ReplyDeleteThe problem seems to be that we don't live in the first century and the values that developed and prevailed then don't seem govern the way to live today. Complain as much as we might want to about modernism, what cannot be helped is that whatever age we live in, that age will always be the one that's modern.
--Hiram
As I said before.
ReplyDeleteAs for those religious people, personally I think that they believe they are doing the wonderful thing, not the awful thing. So there will be no need for forgiveness.
I mean in their eyes murdering ~600,000 fetus a year, supporting unnatural / out of marriage sexual relations and rewarding the lazy is definitely the work of the devil and will lead to end of our nation.
Seems like more than one issue
It reminds me of Atlas Shrugged.
ReplyDeleteLiberals rely on the High Morals of the people they disrespect to get those people to do as they wish.
What happens when the people of High Morals become pragmatic?
Liberals rely on the High Morals of the people they disrespect to get those people to do as they wish.
ReplyDeleteInteresting. Liberals are often accused of being hypocrites because they know it bothers us. We are pretty aware of our shortcomings. Liberals rarely make the effort to call conservatives hypocrites because they don't care.
The Christianity Today editorial called Trump "grossly immoral", a charge that seems to be almost entirely undenied by Republicans and conservatives. In scanning the media, the only person willing to defend Trump's character is Ben Carson. Trump himself didn't deny it. He merely observed that Christian Evangelicals got what they bargained for.
What happens when the people of High Morals become pragmatic?
Well the moralists who overlooked Trump got Republican federal judges that if allowed to operate without limit, will govern this country for generations. But will that happen? The lesson those Twilight Zone episodes teaches is that while the devil always delivers the long range outlook is less clear.
--Hiram
It is funny when Liberals are concerned about "Conservative" justices governing the country while noting no concerns about "Liberal" justices governing the country.
ReplyDeletePlease remember that LGBT marriage was "passed" by 5 Justices. 4 Liberals and 1 Moderate.
Remember that I just see it all as a big pendulum that swings back and forth over the decades and centuries. Maybe getting slightly more Liberal over time.
As the piece above discusses...
ReplyDelete"A progressive cohort has held disdain for Christian values, either openly mocking or outright criticizing evangelicals’ beliefs about the importance of integrity and values in the public square. This mockery – teamed with an obsessive and oft-times ill-understood view of the separation of church and state – has consistently peppered our political discourse.
Now the same people who held such open disdain when evangelicals wished to see our views reflected in the public square are complaining that Christians have suddenly changed course and are no longer wedded to the morality we once demanded in our politics."
I just think of the number of times folks even here have bashed the religious right, sometimes even myself...
ReplyDeleteSo should we fault them for backing a sinful man who gets the results they want?
I would have no problem if they said "I acknowledge that Trump is a sinful liar who I am willing to let lead because he is doing God's work, even if unintentionally"...
What concerns me more is that many of them seem able to self deceive themselves so thoroughly that they insist that Trump is good and honest.
That seems very unhealthy to me.
I just think of the number of times folks even here have bashed the religious right, sometimes even myself...
ReplyDeletePeople get bashed all the time. Why would someone who supports a grossly immoral person for president expect to be exempt from bashing? Why should someone who votes for a guy who thinks Obama was born in Kenya think they shouldn't be condescended to, even if people don't come out and say it?
--Hiram
Hiram,
ReplyDeleteThe point is that the Liberals would bash the Religious Right no matter what they did...
It appears the Religious Right has just accepted that and decided to fight back with an incredibly effective if deeply flawed individual.
ReplyDeleteThe point is that the Liberals would bash the Religious Right no matter what they did...
I think people on the religious right confuse disagreement with them as bashing. For one thing, victimization and martyrdom are essential elements in the Christian ethos.
People from the religious right often tell me that evil is the absence of good. There are a lot of problems with this view, but one of the most serious is that it seems to imply that if you don't share their notion of good, you are evil.
The problem with absolutism is that things that don't bend are vulnerable to breaking. The religious right now controls the federal judiciary, something they have sought for generations. They now believe they can govern the country irrespective of elections and the will of the voters.for generations to come. We will just have to see.
--Hiram
Apparently Augustine's theory is not widely adopted.
ReplyDeleteEvil absence of good?
I am sure Conservative Judges can screw with our nation, just like the Liberal Judges can...