tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post3606274932824084875..comments2024-03-28T06:23:02.679-05:00Comments on Give2Attain: You Can't Handle The Truth !!!Johnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-38281764154068614002013-07-23T09:23:02.183-05:002013-07-23T09:23:02.183-05:00I think my point is that the fact that this much l...I think my point is that the fact that this much lesser, but still totally unprovable charge was not made proves that this was an entirely trumped-up political prosecution – a show trial. <br /><br />I have to ask: which side of this trial – before, during and after – is displaying a wanton and total disregard for the truth, the jury or the prosecution, Obama, Holder, Sharpton and the Black Panthers? jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-52787008032729322013-07-23T08:57:44.902-05:002013-07-23T08:57:44.902-05:00I think the answers to your questions are wholly c...I think the answers to your questions are wholly contained in that first sentence, in the words "culpable negligence." The prosecution would have had to prove that Zimmerman it absolutely no idea that the person whom he was following might be dangerous, or that a gun might kill somebody, or that he used that gun "recklessly." None of those even remotely resembled the truth. Zimmerman obviously suspected the man was a criminal, deliberately set out to pursue him in what he saw was a civic duty,, and then did not fire his gun until he was facing "grave bodily harm" according to the self-defense statute. He used the gun for EXACTLY its proper and lawful purpose – no negligence whatsoever.<br /><br />Two asides, here: I want to know: have the burglaries of which Zimmerman suspected Martin stopped? Did you see where George Zimmerman helped rescue four people from their overturned car yesterday? I wonder what race they were?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-56756944417019165872013-07-22T22:15:36.718-05:002013-07-22T22:15:36.718-05:00sorry to post one more comment on the Zimmerman is...sorry to post one more comment on the Zimmerman issue, as it has been hashed over pretty well, but I found this comment interesting and persuasive:<br /><br />"The jury could have convicted Zimmerman of involuntary manslaughter. According to Florida Law: <br /><br />To establish involuntary manslaughter, the prosecutor must show that the defendant acted with “culpable negligence.” Florida statutes define culpable negligence as a disregard for human life while engaging in wanton or reckless behavior. The state may be able to prove involuntary manslaughter by showing the defendant’s recklessness or lack of care when handling a dangerous instrument or weapon, or while engaging in a range of other activities that could lead to death if performed recklessly. [Findlaw.com]<br /><br />How is it NOT a dangerous and reckless activity for an armed man with no legal authority to pursue what he considers to be a dangerous criminal, by himself, through a residential area at night? Is a man carrying a gun NOT handling a dangerous instrument or weapon? A civilian with a gun chasing people through a neighborhood at night contrary to police advice is inherently dangerous and reckless with predictably BAD outcomes; yet this was not judged to be Culpable Negligence resulting in Manslaughter. Why?"<br /><br />Maybe the prosecution should have focused exclusively on an involuntary manslaughter charge and had a better chance of getting a conviction.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09905073449150541750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-68544784085515680602013-07-22T15:27:57.570-05:002013-07-22T15:27:57.570-05:00I suppose a great deal depends upon your definitio...I suppose a great deal depends upon your definition of "failing." In my definition, a public school system that graduates less than half of its students from high school is failing. Likewise, school systems in which less than half of the students perform at grade level on a "basic skills" examination is failing abominably. Any city that requires state aid is not properly managing its expenditures to match income. It doesn't help when they add additional taxes that they then give away to millionaires and billionaires for plush playgrounds for themselves. Yet when it comes time to put in a $50,000 drinking fountain or piece of art, they decide to cut back on police and fire protection to pay for it. It all adds up to criminal malfeasance in my book, but because they are Democrats and liberals they are never held responsible.<br /><br />I, too, enjoy the entertainment opportunities of the city but, like almost anybody else with the means to do so, I refused to live there. That leaves the people who cannot afford something better to stay behind, and that is the continuing tragedy of the liberal government.<br /><br />jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-50426307442006902972013-07-22T15:04:09.404-05:002013-07-22T15:04:09.404-05:00about "proof" of failing cities- I am no...about "proof" of failing cities- I am not interested. I read the both the star tribune and pioneer press each day and and go into both cities just about every day as well. While they have some challenges in terms of crime they are far from failing.<br /><br />about the criminal justice system-I think most law enforcement, prosecutors and juries do the best that they can. I think racism is a factor in our far from perfect justice system<br /><br />about low income residents- maybe they want decent city services -police, fire, roads, parks etc.- just like everyone else.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09905073449150541750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-39996041047932798232013-07-22T10:30:13.600-05:002013-07-22T10:30:13.600-05:00Laurie, from your cite: "And among the greate...Laurie, from your cite: "And among the greatest sufferers will be the municipal employees and retirees, now unsecured creditors against the city, and low-income residents, who are supposedly to blame for their excessive demands for a middle-class standard of living."<br /><br />so is it some sort of liberal blindness to the truth that allows them to utter it yet believe it proves the opposite? OF COURSE those who /demand/ "a middle-class standard of living" without doing anything to earn it are, in fact, to blame for their situation. Likewise the unions who demanded more than they returned in productive output. At some point, there is simply not enough of "other people's money" to demand for yourself. That is why I say liberal policies are destined to failure every time they're tried. The "economic Darwinism" that is the free market insures not only the survival of the fittest, but survival, period. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-84316959299429182932013-07-22T08:15:54.887-05:002013-07-22T08:15:54.887-05:00Very interesting. My personal belief is that this...Very interesting. My personal belief is that this should be a test of the SYG law, or at least an opportunity to review it. If this guy gets off based on it, I think there's something wrong. Again, with my "last clear chance" standard, it was the shooter, in this case, who could have avoided the confrontation by simply driving off. If pursued he would have had an excellent case of self-defense. <br /><br />People who own guns need to have more self-control than was exhibited here. 8 shots? Now really, wouldn't simply brandishing the weapon (as something like 99% of defensive gun uses are) have accomplished the same result, without bloodshed? No, based on what I know just from this article, I'm afraid the guy is guilty of 2nd degree murder. He clearly aimed to kill somebody, even though his aim was terrible. <br /><br />Here's another question, back on topic. Do you think courts of law find the truth in most cases? jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-42055639124665094022013-07-22T08:06:35.859-05:002013-07-22T08:06:35.859-05:00"about your argument, Jerry, about the failur..."about your argument, Jerry, about the failure of liberal government policies, aren't most cities and their govts liberal? are most of them failing?"<br /><br />Most large cities are Democrat, "non-partisan" or liberal Republican (e.g. Nanny Bloomberg in NYC). Only some of them are economic liberals, and even some of those are only modestly so. Most of these large cities are "failing" to some degree. Their schools are abysmal, their regulations on business onerous, taxes and spending too high and public services weak. They are pockets of poverty where private enterprise is discouraged and disparaged. Minneapolis and St. Paul are no exceptions, and the fact they need "LGA" simply proves it. <br /><br />Now, pertinent to the topic at hand, does the above ring of "truth" in your worldview? Would statistical facts--i.e. "proof"-- matter, if presented?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-8619895067647767392013-07-21T23:10:20.683-05:002013-07-21T23:10:20.683-05:00Here is another link that I found interesting that...Here is another link that I found interesting that may be a better test case of the stand your ground law:<br /><br /><a href="http://myfox8.com/2013/07/16/the-other-fla-murder-case-that-everyones-talking-about/" rel="nofollow">The other Fla. murder case that everyone is talking about</a><br /><br />So the shooter was afraid of 4 young men in a parking lot, says they threatened him, and thought he saw a gun (though no gun was found.) Does this justify him shooting 8 shots that resulted in the death of one of the young men.<br /><br />Does the stand your ground law protect someone who is afraid?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09905073449150541750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-62952884628159985182013-07-21T20:15:31.931-05:002013-07-21T20:15:31.931-05:00For some more debate on on whose failings are resp...For some more debate on on whose failings are responsible for the Detroit bankruptcy and what it means for Detroit and other cities here is another liberal blogger's take. This time responding to comments made by Krauthammer.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2013_07/bankruptcy_and_moral_leprosy045918.php" rel="nofollow">Bankruptcy and moral leprosy</a><br /><br />about your argument, Jerry, about the failure of liberal government policies, aren't most cities and their govts liberal? are most of them failing?<br /><br />I have never objected to lga to mpls and st paul because I believe healthy central cities are good for the whole region. I like a safe place in which to work and I very frequently visit the cities for recreation and entertainment.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09905073449150541750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-38311958475608883622013-07-21T16:55:21.883-05:002013-07-21T16:55:21.883-05:00I think that was my point-- that other cities surv...I think that was my point-- that other cities survived nicely where Detroit did not. So it's not Democrats governing badly, but rather Democrats (or Whigs, for that matter) pursuing LIBERAL government policies destined to fail every time they're tried. Imagine if the Detroit city employees had been denied pensions vastly out of proportion to their working wages, or if Detroit schools had become charters or choice schools, with rewards for performance? Suppose Detroit had instituted "enterprise zones" to bring in industries that could replace the automakers? Not all Democrats are incompetent, it's just that their ideology tends to blind them to real-world solutions. Again, my opinion, but let's remember whose opinion it is. :-)jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-3083486746892758512013-07-21T16:20:41.307-05:002013-07-21T16:20:41.307-05:00It seems that your theory that democratic city lea...It seems that your theory that democratic city leaders are inherently inept does not apply to Pittsburg, where they survived similar challenges, such as the shutdown of the steel mills, in much better shape than Detroit. They have been under the leadership of a democratic mayor for the last 80 years.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09905073449150541750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-86353100246197252002013-07-21T15:00:16.887-05:002013-07-21T15:00:16.887-05:00Laurie, I found an AP story (a left-biased source,...Laurie, I found an AP story (a left-biased source, IMHO) that agrees almost exactly with what you said.<br /><br />http://townhall.com/news/politics-elections/2013/07/21/autos-troubles-race-at-root-of-detroit-collapse-n1645732<br /><br />Notice that it comes from Townhall.com, something akin to Slate but very conservative. In other words, I trust them to include the relevant facts in support of their opinion, and I find most of these pieces interesting and well-written. Your Mileage May Vary. <br /><br />I have been more inclined to the more partisan view that "this is what happens under 60 years of Democrat control," but if you think about it, BOTH viewpoints could be true. Many large cities, as the article points out, had similar problems, but found ways around them. Detroit's Democrats did not; whether Republican governance could have done better we'll never know, I suspect. Hopefully, we will all learn something positive from this fiasco. <br /><br />"I still think that Zimmerman deserved to be charged, that acquittal was the right verdict, and stand your ground laws need to be changed."<br /><br />I mostly agree with your viewpoint. I think Zimmerman should have been INVESTIGATED, like anyone else that causes a death, but I do not think he should have been charged. There were no grounds for charges, as the police and local prosecutors had already concluded. Only an uproar from agitators caused a special prosecutor to be brought in and charges filed, and those did not hold up; we could have saved a lot of trouble just by not bringing charges at all. Clamoring mobs rarely bring justice, just as a rule of thumb. I'm also going to have to disagree on SYG laws. Nothing against a review of them, because exact wording can be tricky, but I claim that there exists an inherent human right-- natural law, if you will-- that says if I have a right to be someplace nobody has the right to threaten me or attack me for being there. By extension, I have the right of self-defense for protecting that right. Much is being made of Zimmerman's choice to "follow" Martin rather than staying in his car, but that denies the very right of any citizen to be in a public place and not be attacked, as well as the right of every citizen to cooperate and even act as law enforcement, via "citizen's arrest." There is no doubt in my mind, based on all the evidence I know of, that Martin made the fatal mistake of attacking an "innocent civilian" who happened to be armed. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-32675995248589240482013-07-21T11:21:21.327-05:002013-07-21T11:21:21.327-05:00That was an interesting video and the kind of thin...That was an interesting video and the kind of thing that I hope to see to add another pt of view to my understanding of the news/issues. I don't think, however, that it really changes my opinions much. I still think that Zimmerman deserved to be charged, that acquittal was the right verdict, and stand your ground laws need to be changed. After reporting his suspicions to the police Zimmerman should have stayed in his car. Citizens should not act as law enforcement, especially when they carry a weapon. Maybe that is a law that should be passed.<br /><br />About finding the facts I guess if your alien is highly intelligent he could read MSM and decipher the truth on his own. He might also read news with a point of view, such as what Jerry and I mostly consume and determine for himself which is more accurate or which interpretation is more consistent with his values. As for me I will continue to trust the msm bloggers/reporters/columnists who have values consistent with my own and who are more knowledgeable about the facts to give me a spin on the news each day. Here is an example:<br /><br /><a href="http://prospect.org/article/great-detroit-betrayal" rel="nofollow">The Great Detroit Betrayal</a><br /><br />I learned from MSM headlines that Detroit has declared bankruptcy. From the essay from the liberal perspective I learned that it is due to the decline of the auto industry (partially due to trade deals) and also from racial polarization. No doubt if Jerry is interested in this story he will learn that there are other causes such as unions. In this case our take away main ideas are different opinions that are a result of our beliefs/world view. The alien could do much research into the underlying facts or just develop a world view over time.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09905073449150541750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-52760472533258218822013-07-21T10:24:54.651-05:002013-07-21T10:24:54.651-05:00https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embed...https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ebu6Yvzs4Ls<br />jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-15024441918510658632013-07-21T10:18:44.721-05:002013-07-21T10:18:44.721-05:00Laurie, kudos to WaPo for a fairly even-handed, al...Laurie, kudos to WaPo for a fairly even-handed, all-factual (though I believe a few have been omitted, benefiting the leftist position) piece. What I find hilarious is the comment claiming that right-wing tax-exempt groups put more money into elections than left-wing groups do. To which I offer two words: Alida Messinger.<br /><br />The Mother Jones article is more of a classic biased item. What is said is a fact. However, the context is completely ignored, leading one who has only these facts before her and believing she has a complete picture to agree with the author and be wrong. The "rest of the story" is more complicated. For instance, SYG was NOT brought up by the defense prior to trial, as was its right, and which would have led to immediate dismissal of the charges. That did not prevent the valid legal issue, rather from statue or "natural law," from being considered by the jury, as it must have been. I still liken it to Nebraska's "last clear chance" law on traffic accidents. Whoever had the last chance to avoid the confrontation and failed to take it would be guilty of the crash. In this case, it HAD to be Martin. He could have walked away. In this case the comments are ALSO very enlightening, and demonstrate how different people process information, just as described in the article that started this discussion. In this case, there are a lot of (solid leftist) folks conjuring up all sorts of scenarios based on "cherry picking" the information available and drawing their own conclusions. I would call it faulty reasoning from questionable premises, but that's just my opinion.<br /><br />The New York Times article on global warming is classic liberal fluff. While giving a nod to the skeptics, acknowledging that "climate scientists" cannot explain the current or past cooling cycles, they nonetheless insist that the world is still warming according to now-discredited statistics (notice they are not cited). The rest of the article is all claims without substantiation-- conjecture, basically. You might as well listen to ME on the subject, except that I also have the evidence, charts, graphs, math, etc. <br /><br />Thanks for all the insight.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-54974514990968233642013-07-20T10:00:00.845-05:002013-07-20T10:00:00.845-05:00I think one has the best chance of getting the tru...I think one has the best chance of getting the truth through news papers and news magazines. Often news papers write a story that only relates the contradictory claims of two opposing parties, without doing independent analysis of what is fact/truth. Here is an example:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal_government/house-lawmakers-press-competing-narratives-before-seventh-irs-hearing/2013/07/17/3af9d7de-ef19-11e2-bed3-b9b6fe264871_story.html" rel="nofollow">House Democrats, GOP press competing views before another hearing on IRS controversy</a><br /><br />I find I do not have the knowledge or time to research every issue so, as I mentioned, I prefer to take in opinionated news. In my experience my favorite msm affiliated bloggers take pride in getting the facts right and will correct mistakes they make. Here is an example:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/07/stand-your-ground-did-indeed-play-role-zimmerman-trial" rel="nofollow">"Stand Your Ground" Did Indeed Play a Role in the Zimmerman Trial</a><br /><br />My other way of checking the accuracy of my information is the weakness in my system, as I can't find many sources I like with a contradictory information and pt of view. I prefer msm affiliated bloggers or columnists and sometimes read those with WAPO, but usually they write something so dumb I quit reading for awhile. Here is an example:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2013/07/19/president-obamas-sad-view-of-america/" rel="nofollow">President Obama’s sad view of America</a><br /><br />I also use this blog to consider another pt of view and to see where I might be mistaken. I can think of two issues where my thinking has evolved at least slightly; education and buy American. Really, I am a little disappointed in how rarely you kinds prove me wrong :)<br />Here is an example for Jerry about global warming:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/science/earth/what-to-make-of-a-climate-change-plateau.html?_r=0" rel="nofollow">What to Make of a Warming Plateau</a><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09905073449150541750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-4459169500527770312013-07-20T09:49:01.166-05:002013-07-20T09:49:01.166-05:00Not global warming again.
I am pretty sure there ...Not global warming again.<br /><br />I am pretty sure there is a whole group of people who are not convinced that it stopped... Remember they truly believe you are a "cherry picker"...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-12888914752839157802013-07-20T08:04:20.517-05:002013-07-20T08:04:20.517-05:00"The Censor won't allow us to hold two co..."The Censor won't allow us to hold two contradictory pictures of ourselves or reality. To experience two contradictory beliefs, pictures, or feelings is called "Cognitive Dissonance". The Censor always works to resolve Cognitive Dissonance."<br /><br />This quote from your otherwise-informative article just doesn't ring true. I have known for years that the mark of a good liberal is their ability to hold and espouse two totally conflicting ideas simultaneously. If I can remember a good example I will post it. The rest is also more true of liberals than of conservatives, IMHO. For example: Knowing that global warming "stopped" 15 years ago, they continue to insist that manmade CO2 (which has continued to rise unabated) must be radically curbed to prevent global warming. Those who are so "blind" should not be "behind the wheel" of government. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-76185599260239788432013-07-20T08:02:03.813-05:002013-07-20T08:02:03.813-05:00One other thing to throw in your mix: it is said ...One other thing to throw in your mix: it is said that "in politics, perception is reality." And another, from comic Flip Wilson: "A lie is as good as the truth if you can get somebody to believe it." And finally, how can you tell when a politician is lying?jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-43524095041712590842013-07-20T07:59:58.618-05:002013-07-20T07:59:58.618-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-52314018941241713532013-07-19T23:51:46.102-05:002013-07-19T23:51:46.102-05:00I am at the lake so my comments will likely be sho...I am at the lake so my comments will likely be short and sporadic.<br /><br />I guess I would go back to basics...<br /><br />What is a FACT?<br /><br />What is TRUTH?<br /><br />What is OPINION?<br /><br />How do these relate to beliefs, correlation, causation, learning, etc?<br /><br />Do you think our space alien friend has learned anything from us yet? If he came with a belief system that insisted we are crazy and must be eradicated for the good of the planet. Would he consciously or subconsciously look for Facts/Truths that supported his belief system??? Or should he do something different? I am guessing we are still going to disintegrated...<br /><br />A flash from the past, yes read the whole thing. It is not that long. <a href="http://www.sourcetext.com/sourcebook/essays/scotoma.html" rel="nofollow">Reticular Activating System</a>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14991027705809503541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-87016952194591807792013-07-19T16:32:14.770-05:002013-07-19T16:32:14.770-05:00Laurie--
I recommend the Powerline Blog
http://w...Laurie-- <br /><br />I recommend the Powerline Blog<br />http://www.powerlineblog.com/<br />jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-29207498630676126592013-07-19T16:22:56.289-05:002013-07-19T16:22:56.289-05:00"Is my take away main idea wrong?
When a ..."Is my take away main idea wrong?<br /><br />When a 'bombshell' is a dud"<br />-- Laurie<br /><br />I'm not sure what your takeaway main idea is. If you mean that the liberal bias (on Rachel Maddow's blog, imagine!) is so thick as to be laughable, consisting mostly of ad hominem and snark, yes. In this case, the established facts support the notion of a partisan scandal. Whether that scandal traces back to Obama himself may never be known and I'm not that sure I care. But all this scurrying about trying to hide the obvious gets pretty tiring and a true leader would step up and clear it up, rather than cover it up. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8193628934721963907.post-73208804882525485272013-07-19T16:14:00.631-05:002013-07-19T16:14:00.631-05:00Laurie--
"Much of the reading I do is news w...Laurie--<br /><br />"Much of the reading I do is news with a point of view (mostly liberal of course.) I find the facts on which opinions are based are from sources I consider reliable." <br /><br />That's exactly what you are supposed to be doing-- reading through/past the opinion to the underlying facts, and then verifying those facts, if possible, from a source with the opposite bias. I guess I'm lucky in that I start with what I consider reliable sources of fact-- Rush, Fox, conservative blogs-- and can easily find the opposite bias anywhere-- AP, Star Tribune, CNN, or ANY of the reliably liberal sources you cite as your daily reading. If the underlying facts agree I can start reasoning from there. If different sources report different facts on the same incident, you must do some synthesis before you "know what's going on." It's that selective fact-finding thing which, as I say, is pretty common. <br /><br />"Sometimes my sources include a graph such as of the number of filibusters of cloture votes in the senate. This is public record so why would their counting be wrong."<br /><br />There is most likely nothing wrong with your fact, but the conclusion/opinion you draw FROM that fact may be (almost certainly will be :-) different from mine. There are probably other facts that should be considered in your analysis, or were in mine. That is why we have the discussion here. Thanks, Give.<br /><br />"Mostly I am disappointed in how rarely conservative comments here include a link to a source which challenges my understanding of the facts related to an issue."<br /><br />You have the same frustration as our moderator. Unfortunately, I remember most of what I read but never WHERE. I somewhat depend on, when I state what I believe to be a fact, someone challenging me if it is not correct. More often, though, others will simply dismiss that fact-based opinion in favor of their own opinion, based on a different factual aspect of the same issue. And.... we're back to sometimes frustrating discussion. I've found it nearly impossible to even get people to agree on the facts of a matter, let alone what opinion is the proper one to hold. jerrye92002https://www.blogger.com/profile/01858692298982859775noreply@blogger.com