As I watch the pro-gun and anti-gun folks fill my FB page with stuff, I can not understand why it is so hard for these 2 groups to come together. I mean it is seems pretty logical to me that US citizens should:
- have the right to have guns that are optimized for personal protection and hunting.
- not have the right to have weapons that are optimized for killing large groups of people.
Why pro-gun rights folks fight the following common sense changes amaze me:
- Limiting clip sizes to 15 or fewer bullets
- Banning modifications that enable semi-automatic weapons to perform as an automatic
- Mandatory back ground checks for every gun purchase or transfer
- A national database to track who has loss their right to own a gun (ie felony, mental illness, etc)
- Mandatory Gun Registration (especially for hand guns and semi-automatic rifles)
- Severe penalties for anyone holding a gun that is NOT registered
- Allow law suits against people who allow their guns to be stolen, especially if they have not reported the theft.
Why anti-gun rights folks fight the following common sense changes amaze me:
- Conceal and carry for all, including teachers at school
- good responsible citizens can go hunting and defend themselves
- criminals, unstable and irresponsible citizens do not own guns, especially those that enable the murders of tens or hundreds of people.
84 comments:
you seem to have a lot more in common with us so called anti gun rights people.
so how many teachers do you think should be carrying a concealed weapon around their classrooms?
Do you want people bringing guns into your church or into a courtroom or your place of work or in university classrooms and dorms?
Do you want a guy walking through your neighborhood carrying a weapon?
Of course... I am a rational moderate.
As many as want to.
Courtroom no, too many emotions. Others... ok
I am okay with conceal and carry.
the nra would say your views are pretty far left on this issue.
Does Mn and other states allow open carry? Could I walk through the mall with an assault rifle?
Do you want students with weapons attending college with your daughters?
I don't know... I don't know...
As long as they are law abiding sane people... No problem.
Please remember that criminals and insane folks don't care what law you pass. They will carry guns where they want to.
Why do you anti-gun folks go so far Left whenever discussing this topic?
Do you really think we want a bunch of people walking around church with with AR15s?
Laurie,
Since I play so poorly with tribes, I am also challenging the FB folks who are posting the usual NRA talking points... For instance:
Armed Volunteers in Schools
Armed Teachers
I find this silly because most of these killers are not afraid of dying... In fact they often shoot themselves...
So I can already see that crazy guy walking in with his AR15 and a couple of 50 round clips and body armor.
What exactly are the "guards" going to do?
How will they be in the right place at the right time?
Will we post them around the play grounds?
If we limit the deaths to only 15 children per incident... Will that be deemed a success?
All so people can avoid background checks, avoid registration and buy guns they will almost never fire?
Please remember that the 50 round clip and bump fire look cool... But those bullets get expensive at that rate of fire.
Ironically, I am thinking of buying a semi-automatic rifle with a ~10 round clip.
But mine would be used to try and eliminate some of the coyotes back home... They apparently are hard on the pheasant and deer population and they repopulate quickly.
I have the right not to be gunned down by semi automatic weapon fire.
— Hiram
Asking teachers to serve as the front line of defense in an active-shooter situation is a recipe for disaster. Putting more guns in schools is not the solution.
But just think of the possibilities this would open up. Instead of making sure schools meet the fire code, we can just have teachers that are trained firefighters.
Hiram,
You can rest assured that someone will be arrested or killed after your death... Doesn't that make you feel better?
Sean,
I guess I would not be asking them to do anything... I would just be allowing them to do so if they wish. Or at least make sure the police we have at the schools already are armed.
I don't know what is so difficult about this. All we need do is to pass a law making it illegal for anybody to have a gun within 100 yards of a school. Oh, wait....
But of course we already have a law against murder, so that should prevent every school shooting, right?
And did you notice that, in MN, we haven't had a single liquor store or convenience store robbed since those "no guns allowed on these premises" signs went up?
As for background checks, I point out that the Florida shooter passed his, as did the other Florida shooter and the Texas shooter. The Bakersfield shooters bypassed it, illegally, and the Sandy Hook shooter stole the weapon he used. In fact, he broke SIX gun laws before he even got to the school. The laws of God and of Man outlaw murder of a single individual. Is a person dedicated to breaking that supreme law many times over going to worry about a couple of gross misdemeanor gun offenses?
These legislators think they are gods, and by simply passing a law they can change the laws of chemistry, physics, economics and human nature. They can't.
Simple Laws...
If there were no mass casualty weapons in the private domain... They could not be used to create mass casualty events...
If gun owners were held accountable for ensuring their guns are securely stored. They would be less likely to be used by their children to harm others.
If we had all guns and owners registered in a common database, we could spot abnormalities more effectively.
Ah, yes. And if we simply criminalized all bad things, we would have no criminals. By definition, criminals commit crimes, so adding another law doesn't do diddly. There are NO "mass casualty weapons" in the private domain-- no A-bombs, H-bombs, mustard gas canisters, and no automatic weapons except those very expensive and highly-regulated collectors items.
If there were no evil/crazy people intent on inflicting massive shooting casualties there would be no mass casualty shootings. Remember the old Vietnamese saying, "A thousand throats can be cut in a single night by a running man with a knife." Stop the man, not the knife.
And if we had all guns registered, the criminals would know where to steal them. You have to quit thinking that government can pass a law that can't be broken. There is one, of course. You can't kill 20 kids if you are shot dead by an armed teacher after 5. One wonders if, instead of making schools a gun-free zone, we posted what some homeowners do, "this school protected by Smith and Wesson."
Good lord, jerry. Grow up. People are dying, and you're trying to win talking points.
The fact that someone DID legally purchase a gun and kill many people proves that it's not simply "the criminals won't follow the law so we don't need a law". And Cruz is just the most recent example of this. See also: Las Vegas
Also, a question (I'm not familiar with SCOTUS decisions): What does "keep and bear" mean? Does it include "purchase and own"?
Moose
CNN Spokesperson Comments
Jerry,
Yes, you are a full fledge NRA tribe member with regard to this topic. No doubt.
Sorry for the sidetrack, John.
"They apparently are hard on the pheasant and deer population and they repopulate quickly."
Do you have scientific evidence that this is actually happening? Remember, apex predators serve an important role in an ecosystem.
Moose
Odd. I think I am being coldly rational. What gun law, of the thousands, actually stopped any school shooting? Surely they did not stop the one in Florida, or the other in Florida, or the ones in Texas, California, Connecticut, Las Vegas. Tell me what gun law you can pass that will not be broken by some criminal/crazy intent on murdering many people?
So happens I am not an NRA member, but they are not wrong.
Moose, yes, people are dying, and neither I nor you nor any half-witted law stopped it, nor will it stop the next one. Get real.
MPR asked for my opinion and I told them, "stop publicizing the name and likeness of the shooter." Did you notice the immediate rash of copycats who sprang up after Cruz? Don't make these guys famous, and you may have a chance to stop a future event.
VOX Facts and Data
"I think I am being coldly rational."
No doubt about that. 'Cold' is the operative word here.
It's really astonishing.
Canada has mental illness, but not a mass shooting problem.
Canada has the absence of god in the schools, but not a mass shooting problem.
Canada has divorce and broken families, but not a mass shooting problem.
Canada has atheism, but not a mass shooting problem.
Canada has alcohol and drug addictions, but not a mass shooting problem.
Canada has violent video games, but not a mass shooting problem.
Canada has strict gun control laws, AND they don't have a mass shooting problem.
Moose
NA Canada vs USA
Thanks for the article. I call BS.
--The places in the US with the strictest gun controls have the most homicides.
--Every adult in Switzerland has an "assault rifle" but not our mass shootings.
--Only a tiny fraction of all shootings are "mass." What about the rest?
--Canadian culture is different in many ways, especially in the prevalence of the various cultural pathologies. Apples and Oranges.
--Other countries DO have the problem. Some statistics say the US is something like 20th in murder rate and mass shootings per capita. (just saw it yesterday.)
And all of it is BS because passing laws does not stop people from breaking those laws! If gun laws worked, the tragedy in Florida would have been IMPOSSIBLE. You have to deny reality to suggest otherwise.
Sorry, 12th not 20th.
compared
Again, cold logic says that laws exist to punish wrongdoers AFTER the fact and IF they are apprehended. They do not /prevent/ any crime. Anything else is magical thinking.
Source?
Oh. I noticed you did leave a source. Though it seems highly suspect given its Op Eds and advertisers.
CPRC Review
TP John Lott Review
PS John Lott
SA Conceal and Carry
Jerry,
This is a very strange statement.
"If gun laws worked, the tragedy in Florida would have been IMPOSSIBLE."
As I have stated before... If there were few AR15's in the public domain and they were highly regulated, it would be hard to see how they would be used by a kid to kill a bunch of kids.
Some interesting coverage of the townhall meeting
"--Every adult in Switzerland has an "assault rifle" but not our mass shootings."
Swiss culture is different in many ways, especially in the prevalence of the various cultural pathologies. Apples and Oranges.
"Other countries DO have the problem. Some statistics say the US is something like 20th in murder rate and mass shootings per capita. (just saw it yesterday.)"
They didn't compare the slaughter of innocent school children in mass shootings. I wonder why not.
Moose
It looks like Jerry is making stuff up again.
Atlantic Swiss Gun Laws / Culture
BBC Swiss Gun Laws and Culture
"Though it seems highly suspect given its Op Eds."
Once more you ask for sources, and then continue to believe what you want to believe, regardless.
Fact: the law clearly states you are not allowed to carry a gun within 100/300 yards of a school, not sure which. If this law stopped people from doing what those who passed the law intended, the shooting WOULD, in fact, have been impossible. Good intentions do not make good law, except as proof of the Law of Unintended Consequences. In this case, by not allowing those in the school to defend themselves.
Suggest a law that would actually work and NOT infringe on the rights of the law-abiding, and we can continue the conversation. Or feel free to offer a sensible alternative that treats the shooter as the problem, rather than the inanimate object.
When you choose sources with an obvious political agenda, you are correct that I will discount their data and opinions.
As for how to improve on our current disaster. Let's learn from Canada and Switzerland... Or just read the post, the ideas may not stop the events but they will reduce the number of innocent children, women and men who die needlessly.
Why pro-gun rights folks fight the following common sense changes amaze me:
•Limiting clip sizes to 15 or fewer bullets
•Banning modifications that enable semi-automatic weapons to perform as an automatic
•Mandatory back ground checks for every gun purchase or transfer
Or some other logical changes include:
•A national database to track who has loss their right to own a gun (ie felony, mental illness, etc)
•Mandatory Gun Registration (especially for hand guns and semi-automatic rifles)
•Severe penalties for anyone holding a gun that is NOT registered
•Allow law suits against people who allow their guns to be stolen, especially if they have not reported the theft.
And yes Trump is delusional
"These people are cowards. They're not going to walk into a school if 20% of the teachers have guns -- it may be 10% or may be 40%. And what I'd recommend doing is the people that do carry, we give them a bonus. We give them a little bit of a bonus," Trump said. "They'll frankly feel more comfortable having the gun anyway. But you give them a little bit of a bonus."
He seems to think that these folks care if they die... Which is so stupid given the fact that most of them are killed or commit suicide during the event.
We are dealing with deeply disturbed people, not rational humans.
And then he had to suck up to one of his biggest donors.
And the NRA Leader reminded me why they will never get a penny from me.
Thankfully Trump seems slightly more reasonable, however we can not trust him to follow through on what he says. So only time will tell.
Trump will do nothing to decrease the number of school shootings, mass murders, or gun violence in general. I agree with K. Drum; We Are Not Going to Arm Teachers
The police officer in Florida was arnmed and didn't even enter the bldg.
Never say never... SD apparently already does it.
PBS Teacher Training
We need to understand that the slaughter of innocents is the price we have agreed to pay in order to ensure that psychopaths have access to firearms.
--Hiram
One tweak to your statement.
"We need to understand that the slaughter of innocents is the price we have agreed to pay in order to ensure that all citizens have access to mass casualty firearms, including psychopaths."
"We are dealing with deeply disturbed people, not rational humans."
Rational humans obey the laws. So how does the law stop the madman? By disarming the sane and sensible victims?
People get all outraged when 17 kids are killed in Florida, but Chicago has some of the toughest gun laws in the country, and just so far in February alone, there have been over 100 people shot, 32 of them teenagers. Source: Chicago Tribune
I asked for sensible new laws, and looking at your list of 7, I see that 5 of them are already law, in some form, two that would penalize ONLY the law-abiding, and one that doesn't make any logical sense. Try again.
Maybe thought and prayers will help ensure that the butcher's bill is sent to someone else.
--Hiram
"Chicago has some of the toughest gun laws in the country"
Sure, but it's surrounded by places (like Indiana) that have more relaxed gun laws. And multiple studies have shown that most of the guns used in Chicago crime come from outside the city.
For instance, FBI and Chicago police data stats show that 60% come from other states.
Jerry,
I would ask which is which, however your opinions on this topic are so tribal that I really am not interested.
Hiram,
I agree that is unfortunate that children are dying in large numbers so gun enthusiasts can have mass casualty weapons that they will rarely use sitting in their gun safe. And so that people can collect these weapons with little vetting.
Sean,
Agreed, most of them are stolen from irresponsible owners who do not adequately and responsibly secure such deadly material. Look at the fire arms store robberies.
And if they did not stock these mass casualty weapons... They could not steal them.
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own." -- John
Again, of the 7 things you describe, 5 are already law. Which of the other two do you imagine will do what the other 5 have not? Why? Seems to me like magical thinking.
Suppose, somewhere in the US, about once every six months or so, somebody broke in and robbed 17 apartments? Would you be demanding that all crowbars, hammers and boots be licensed and subject to a background check? Would you require that homeowners keep every valuable under lock and key? That owners be restricted to no more than 10 apartments? A national registry of TVs, stereos, computers, coin collections? How about hurricanes; can we pass a law against them?
Jerry as I said, your reality is so tainted that discussion is pointless.
We are not talking about crow bars or hammers that have many excellent practical uses, and can not be used to kill 50 people in 10 minutes.
We are not talking about hurricanes and other "acts of God".
We are talking about rapid fire large clip rifles that have pretty much only two purposes...
- to be collected and to shoot at targets
- to kill large groups of people very quickly
I mean they are not even useful for "self defense".. Unless you are excited to rebuild your home.
I am not sure how you decided that the lives of innocent children are less important than the whims of gun collectors / hobbyists.
yes, my reality is "tainted" by facts, reason and experience. What baffles me is how you can continue to deny the very obvious realities involved in this case.
Guns have many practical uses, including various forms of recreation and self defense. The AR 15 style is the most popular hunting rifle in the US. You want to ban hunting? And, by the way, it is not an "assault weapon" if that is what you're thinking.
Or do you want to ban self-defense with a weapon of a person's choice?
I am not sure how you decided that you can prevent crazed criminals from shooting up a school and taking the lives of innocent children, any more than you can prevent hurricanes. They are both rare and they both pay no attention to the law.
Jerry,
If that hunter or person needs an AR15 with a 50 round clip and a bump stock to kill an animal or burglar, they really are a BAD SHOT...
Just accept that you are happy to sacrifice the lives of children and other citizens so people can buy a very high risk and deadly toys that have no peace time practical use.
You can discuss the morality of your choice at the pearly gates... I can hear it already...
"I know people were killing innocents with those weapons because they were readily available, but I was a member of NRA tribe so it was worth the sacrifice of those children to support the more guns of all kinds is better doctrine..."
The good news is that smarter and more caring people are making better choices.
Dismissing your insults as virtue signaling claptrap, I would suggest an inconsistency on your part. You think the armed officers outside the school should have intervened, but you don't want anybody else to be able to defend themselves? "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away," right?
I have no problem with companies deciding how to price their own products, but anybody thinking that any such statement will stop a crazed gunman from committing mass murder is suffering an episode of magical thinking. Sure, there are a few things that ought to be done, but not because of some dream that human failings will disappear, but because we RECOGNIZE that possibility. Trump is doing most of them.
--He wants better mental health records
--He wants the background check system improved
--He has already made a ruling that bump stocks are "automatic weapon modifications" and thus illegal under current law.
--He wants to see school personnel allowed the right of self-defense. (How they are going to get around that silly "gun free zone" law I don't know.)
"I know a teensy-tinsy number of people were killing innocents, but I prefer that those innocents not have the right to shoot back." Defend /that/.
As you are aware, I am fine with conceal and carry. Even in the schools.
I am not fine with "AR15 with a 50 round clip and a bump stock" being readily available in our society so they can be easily obtained and used in mass shooting events.
I am not for the gun show loop hole that allows questionable people to avoid back ground checks.
By the way, I am not really trying to insult you personally. My St Peter / Pearly gate questions are aimed at most of the Holier than thou people on the Religious Right who seem so out of line from the God I follow.
My God would advocate for strong gun registration, keeping mass casualty weapons out of the private domain and the quick removal of gun from the households of people who are at high risk of committing violent acts.
Yours is a strange God, concerned more with the laws of man than the laws of God. More concerned with clip capacity than the capacity of men's souls.
If you want to look at this from the religious standpoint rather than from crass political emotionalism or practical political problem-solving, the issue is this: this is a struggle between those who want to deny the reality of darkness and evil in the world and those who want to recognize and adapt to that reality. The real tragedy is that too many of those who want to wish evil away say that those who want to actually confront the evil ARE the evil.
One does not confront evil by making sure mass casualty weapons are readily available to them without background checks. Which of course is what you are advocating for.
So if you advocate for ensuring that evil doers have easy access to the tools with which they kill children and women... Are you now an accessory to the murder of innocents?
Please remember that making all schools, churches, concert venues and other soft targets secure is nearly impossible when the evil doer has the capacity to kill quickly from hundreds of yards away and they don't care if they die. Just imagine children and parents walking into the parking lot after a game, play, etc... Or kids out on the play field during recess...
Does your God also ask you to ensure that bomb making materials are readily available in the general public?
That is another way in which you could assist mass killers to pursue their agenda.
Does your God (or more correctly, you who knows not the mind of God) believe that possession of a gun – any gun- so corrupts a man's soul that we will, and indeed must, break the supreme laws of God and of man? Why don't we have 90 million school shootings? Surely some of these weapons that are so deadly that no one should be allowed to possess them are already out there?
"Which of course is what you are advocating for." -- John
Hmmm. Where did I hear this: "The real tragedy is that too many of those who want to wish evil away say that those who want to actually confront the evil ARE the evil."
When you are ready to get serious about gun registration and keeping these particular weapons out of the hands of angry and/or insane people? Or knowing they have them and removing them when something changes to make them so...
Then you may stop being part of the problem.
Were the people who knowingly made gas available for Hitler's gas chambers guilty of enabling and supporting mass murder?
Or do they get to claim innocence?
When you are ready to get serious about something that would have actually prevented this tragedy we can talk. A bump stock was not used and is now illegal. The kid passed a background check, and though it could be improved, a work already underway, it did not stop this nor many other mass shootings. Mandated clip sizes would be silly, since 15 rounds can do a lot of damage, especially in a handgun, and two handguns would be easy to carry, for 30 rounds total, and handguns kill twenty times as many people as rifles. The police and FBI repeatedly failed to identify the mental problems of this kid-- no fault of the system.
And an AR-15 is NOT an assault rifle, period. It's just a talking point. And wasn't the church shooting in Texas ENDED by a legal AR-15 in the hands of a neighbor? Do you know how many 100s of thousands of shootings every year are PREVENTED by private firearms? And could have been prevented in this case, except for that stupid "gun free zone" law, passed to prevent just such a school shooting?
I agree crazy people shouldn't have guns, but what is the first thing totalitarian regimes do? They start categorizing opposition as crazy. That remedy, like some of the hundreds of other poorly conceived and poorly enforced "gun control" laws, ought to be used sensibly and with care. That's not what I hear being proposed.
That will be an interesting argument that you can provide to St Peter... "I feared that somehow my 250 year old democracy was going to turn into a totalitarian regime... Therefore I was okay sacrificing the lives of innocent children... Just in case..."
Wrong again...
NBC Bump Stocks May Require Legislation
One more thought... "since 15 rounds can do a lot of damage"...
We should allow large clips... Especially in a weapon that can accurately kill over long distances...
Do you listen to yourself?
Just as a reminder.
Why pro-gun rights folks fight the following common sense changes amaze me:
Limiting clip sizes to 15 or fewer bullets
Banning modifications that enable semi-automatic weapons to perform as an automatic
Mandatory back ground checks for every gun purchase or transfer
Confiscation of guns from people with anger issues / restraining orders
Or some other logical changes include:
A national database to track who has loss their right to own a gun (ie felony, mental illness, etc)
Mandatory Gun Registration (especially for hand guns and semi-automatic rifles)
Severe penalties for anyone holding a gun that is NOT registered
Allow law suits against people who allow their guns to be stolen, especially if they have not reported the theft.
Why anti-gun rights folks fight the following common sense changes amaze me:
Conceal and carry for all, including teachers at school
And an AR-15 is NOT an assault rifle, period.
I wouldn't mind an explanation as to how an AR-15 can't be used to an assault. But let's face it, we aren't going to do anything about these weapons. Except for the thought and prayer thing; there is no shortage of that, and I am sure that does keep the murders down.
--Hiram
I have more faith that something will happen, since the NRA is being treated a bit more like a social pariah than in the recent past.
And as more middle of the road gun guys like me study the silliness of their stance and rational... Hopefully things will change.
The only question is how many kids have to die before that happens.
How many kids die before "something" happens?
Circling back: "People get all outraged when 17 kids are killed in Florida, but Chicago has some of the toughest gun laws in the country, and just so far in February alone, there have been over 100 people shot, 32 of them teenagers. Source: Chicago Tribune"
Now, which of those hundreds of gun laws, many of which you propose but that already exist, are going to stop this ongoing carnage?
"I am sure that [prayer] does keep the murders down."
And it is the ONLY thing that will. A mentally ill individual intent on breaking the laws of God and Man against murder (and often, suicide as well), is not going to be deterred except by his own moral code, which he has lost, OR by someone else hastening his demise before his madness reaches its full potential.
The federal government defines an "assault weapon" as having 2 of 5 COSMETIC features, none of which have any bearing on the lethality or rate of fire. A true assault weapon, one which permits automatic firing, is illegal except for the military.
Chicago Gun Sources
Wiki Assault Weapon
Yep these are needed for hunting or defense... Not...
Common attributes used in legislative definitions of assault weapons include:
Semi-automatic firearm capable of accepting a detachable magazine[10][13]
Folding or telescoping (collapsible) stock,[13] which reduces the overall length of the firearm[15]
A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon[13]
Bayonet lug,[13] which allows the mounting of a bayonet
Threaded barrel, which can accept devices such as a flash suppressor, Suppressor,[13] compensator or muzzle brake
Grenade launcher[13]
Barrel shroud, which prevents burning of shooter's arm or hand as a safety device.[
There you go again, trying to decide what everybody else "needs" for hunting or defense. Why? What is the purpose of an "ugly gun ban" that makes absolutely ZERO difference in the frequency or lethality of these terrible events?
Yes. And thankfully more US citizens are tending to agree.
As proven by companies distancing themselves from the NRA...
Just checking in here to update some stats:
As of yesterday, so far this year, people without guns have shot zero people.
Moose
Now that sadly is very funny !!!
And the 90 million WITH legal guns have committed zero mass shootings and only a handful of crimes, while PREVENTING over a million crimes from occurring.
Oh,and if you think that is funny, consider that the 120 million households with kitchen knives managed to kill 5 times as many people as the 90 million households with rifles-- "assault" and otherwise-- did. And the 300 million households with "hands and feet" did twice the damage.
"And the 90 million WITH legal guns have committed zero mass shootings and only a handful of crimes, while PREVENTING over a million crimes from occurring."
Source, please. I don't recall that the Las Vegas shooter had obtained his guns illegally. Perhaps I'm wrong? Oh...and Cruz bought his gun legally.
You're so entrenched that you can't even see above ground, and you're about to be buried by the groundswell of rage coming from our youth. Ignore them at your own peril.
Moose
Townhall Info
I think 2 out of ten is a lot more than a handful...
"They found that in approximately 8 out of 10 cases, the perpetrator was not a lawful gun owner but rather in illegal possession of a weapon that belonged to someone else. The researchers were primarily interested in how these guns made their way from a legal purchase — at a firearm dealer or via a private sale — to the scene of the crime."
And just look at all these "legal purchases" that turn illegal...
"Christopher Ingraham, who wrote the article, added that straw purchases are also a major factor in guns getting into the wrong hands. As evidence to that fact, he mentioned that 44 percent of gun owners identified in the 2008 study did not return calls from law enforcement. Yet, the rate and lack of initiative on behalf of gun owners reporting their firearms stolen, or approaching law enforcement, is a bit disconcerting."
"More than 30 percent of the guns that ended up at crime scenes had been stolen, according to Fabio's research. But more than 40 percent of those stolen guns weren't reported by the owners as stolen until after police contacted them when the gun was used in a crime.
One of the more concerning findings in the study was that for the majority of guns recovered (62 percent), "the place where the owner lost possession of the firearm was unknown."
Amazing isn't it that these "responsible gun owners" seem to have a hard time keeping track of their guns...
what you are missing is that, While the 20% of crimes allegedly committed by the owner of the gun are a problem-- people breaking the law-- the other 80% broke the law, one of the many gun laws, BEFORE they committed the other crime. Yet you seem to think that these gun laws are actually preventing crime. What's next, prohibitions on alcohol to stop the crime of drunk driving?
Prohibitions on alcohol don't work as we know since anyone can make it...
Guns and ammunition are a bit more challenging to produce...
By the way, we are still waiting for your source for the following...
"90 million WITH legal guns have committed zero mass shootings and only a handful of crimes, while PREVENTING over a million crimes from occurring"
Prohibitions on alcohol because people reserved for themselves the right to choose, and because they believed they could be responsible for themselves. Just like the case here.
As for sources, I looked them up yesterday. so can you.
Well thankfully they did end the prohibition on alcohol, since I enjoy mine in many forms.
However we know that many citizens are not responsible with regard to their drinking, so we have many laws to protect other citizens from the drinker's irresponsibility. Just like we need to do with regard to guns.
The good news about alcohol is that it can not be directly used by an evil / confused / angry person to murder dozens of children...
I would look for your sources, however unfortunately they will likely be NRA front organizations like the last time.
you will not look for the sources because you may find your prejudices challenged.
We do have laws to protect other citizens from irresponsible drinkers, that is true. But we still have irresponsible drinkers, do we not? Prohibition of the "tool" for intoxication did not work. We have laws to protect other citizens from irresponsible shooters, too, like the laws against murder, yet we still have murders, do we not? A prohibition on the possession of the tools to commit murder only penalize the overwhelming majority of those who will use the tool and NOT break the law. In fact, many will use it to prevent law-breaking.
Oh, and since "hands and feet" kill more people than rifles, will you propose a ban on hands and feet, or will you Settle for laws against the misuse of hands and feet?
I'm not sure which, but you are either "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" or "Swatting a mosquito with a sledgehammer."
Possibly... However since I am happy review pretty much every source for different perspectives, I kind of doubt it.
More posts on gun control / child safety to come...
Why don't you start with the law that makes school shootings impossible? Then tell me how another law will help.
Safe Schools Act
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