Sean asked... "Are you enjoying the "economic anxiety" rallies going on in Virginia? " My google search took me hear... CNN Unite the Right Is this what you are talking about?
If so I guess my answer is that it takes 2 to fight... My guess is that the Far Left folks will out number them and cause most of the problems. I am also against taking down so many historical statues just because they are politically incorrect. Kind of like the silly people who a going to rename Lake Calhoun to something people can not pronounce.
If so I guess my answer is that it takes 2 to fight... My guess is that the Far Left folks will out number them and cause most of the problems. I am also against taking down so many historical statues just because they are politically incorrect. Kind of like the silly people who a going to rename Lake Calhoun to something people can not pronounce.
98 comments:
MSN Coverage
I don't get how you see equivalency between the alt right and far left. The anarchists might be considered violent, but they are a very small number of people that might be associated with the fringes of the far left. The counter-protesters are peaceful citizens standing up against hate.
Here is a link for you to learn more about the hateful groups turning out for Unite the right:
Unite the Right, the violent white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, explained
Laurie,
Please remember that I am very analytical... As your piece notes, the ACLU defended the rights of the White Supremacists to march and speak. Now if the Far Left and Anarchists had stayed home it would have been like a tree falling in the forest when no one is there to hear it.
Instead people are dead and injured... In large part because a lot of Liberal hot heads escalated and publicized the event.
FOX Politician Responses
The reason people are injured and dead is because of the hateful event (and person) itself. I think a few hateful marchers can be ignored, hundreds needs a counter-protest response.
I agree that the guy who drove the car into the anti-protesters is definitely unhinged and should be punished accordingly.
Unfortunately his violent actions were only part of the chaos..
So when Ferguson burned was that because the BLM folks were hateful?
Victim blaming.
Congratulations. You lose.
Moose
Should we seek unity with racists and anti-Semites? In order to avoid "division", are we morally obliged to find common ground with them?
--Hiram
Hiram,
I do not think we need to seek unity with them, however given our country's commitment to Free Speech. I think we need to let them meet and protest, just as we allow everyone else to do.
Here are a few more links.
Atlantic When does a fringe group stop being a fringe group
NYT What Trump Got Wrong
Moose,
Please expand on your thought. Who am I blaming for what?
I am just noting that both sides contributed to the chaos that occurred. Do you disagree?
Do you think the pro-Confederate statue folks would have ripped up the town if their Liberal arch enemies weren't in their face?
Another Link
FOX Trump condemns White Supremacists
What would folks say if this happened to a BLM spokeman?
Maybe the view from the Left is...
Everyone has the right to free speech as long as they say what we agree with...
BLM and neo-nazis are not morally equivalent. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Also, I believe the counter protesters this weekend included many clergy,
do you see them as equal to the KKK?
I see the counter protesters as people who are trying to deny the freedom of speech and assembly to other citizens. Do you agree?
For what other reason were they there getting in the faces of the protesters and escalating everyone's emotions?
Whether we agree with the White Nationalists, the Black Lives Matter folks, the Women's Rights marchers, the peace lovers or any other law abiding group... They have the right to assemble and protest as long as they do not break any laws.
Unfortunately the counter-protesters tried to block that right and thinks went badly.
Who do you think should have the right to march voice their opinions in a lawful way?
Do you want the protests that you choose to attend to be mobbed by counter-protesters?
Do you you want the government to have the power to ban your protest?
Do you remember this event where the anti-Trump folks stormed a fund raiser?
Is that the kind of Democracy that you support? (ie mob rule)
The counter protesters have just as much right to be in the street holding their counter protest. How do you know which group was primarily instigating the melees this weekend or "getting in the faces of the protesters and escalating everyone's emotions" as you say? It was someone with the alt right injuring and killing a people.
"In one of the most intense confrontations, a group of white supremacists charged into a line of activists, swinging clubs and bashing bodies. "
Well it sounds like you support allowing these clashes to happen at the same time in the same place.
I would prefer if the 2 warring parties would respect the other parties right to gather and stay away... They can hold a counter-protest on the next weekend if they wish.
I read this bit of E J Dionne's column and thought of you:
"... the shamefulness of Trump’s embrace of moral equivalence. There are not, as Trump insisted Saturday, “many sides” to questions that were settled long ago: Racism, anti-Semitism, discrimination and white supremacy are unequivocally wrong.
A president who cannot bring himself to say this immediately and unequivocally squanders any claim to moral leadership......."
Why are you also so reluctant to condemn the nazis, KKK and other assorted racists, John?
Laurie,
Maybe because I do not subscribe to the following...
"Everyone has the right to free speech as long as they say what we agree with..."
I am happy to say that the Nazis, KKK and other assorted Racists are wrong, however I do not believe that people who disagree with them should be free to prevent them from speaking.
Why do you believe that other citizens should be free to stifle their free speech rights?
If a bunch of Americans decided that your peace protests were traitorous, would you be fine if they showed up at your rally and shouted you down? I don't think so.
Or if a bunch of Conservatives who support the Police showed up a BLM protest and started shouting them down, getting their face, etc...
I can envision the Liberal comments the next day... Those terrible Right wingers tried to stifle the free speech of BLM... They incited violence...
You can not have it both ways...
Remember the Berkeley Protests... When a Liberal Reverse Discrimination person comes to speak, should people who disagree with that position be allowed to cause such a ruckus that the event has to be cancelled?
I have no problem with counter protest, though I wouldn't like para military counter protesters with assault rifles showing up to where I was protesting (or people attacking me with their vehicles.) I am opposed to violence and property destruction from all sides.
Here is something interesting (to me) that I came across this evening about a small part of the far left, the antifa, a coalition of groups who sometimes use violent/property destructive means to work towards their more noble stated goals.
Untangling Antifa, the controversial protest group at war with the alt-right
The Antifa link was fascinating, and I am certain there were at least a few of them in Charlotte. Mix them with some wound up White Nationalists and no wonder chaos ensued.
I think Kerri Miller on MPR is discussing how or if we can get back to more professional and respectful politics at 9 AM this morning... Unfortunately I can not a radio signal at my desk in this big steel building.
I'm opposed to violence, but the notion that you just let the Nazis have their day without counter-protest is bizarre. This the kind of hate that needs to be confronted wherever and whenever it pokes its head up.
Why is it that Donald Trump can't bring himself to forcefully criticize white supremacists or Vladimir Putin?
"I see the counter protesters as people who are trying to deny the freedom of speech and assembly to other citizens."
That is not what the Constitution says or does.
Moose
"Why do you believe that other citizens should be free to stifle their free speech rights?"
This is not what the Constitution says or does.
Moose
"If a bunch of Americans decided that your peace protests were traitorous, would you be fine if they showed up at your rally and shouted you down?"
They have every right to do so. Or do you not agree with the Constitution?
Moose
"Why is it that Donald Trump can't bring himself to forcefully criticize white supremacists?"
Because he's one of them.
Moose
Sadly, that seems to be true.
"This the kind of hate that needs to be confronted wherever and whenever it pokes its head up."
Seems a bit like vigilante justice to me, however if you support escalating these protests into conflicts... I don't think you should be surprised when violence occurs. Or just blame one party for that violence.
"Or just blame one party for that violence."
Did I do that?
Sean,
Well if you are willing to say that the counter-protesters were equally to blame for the escalation and general violence. You are one of the few on the Left who are doing so.
And the crazy guy who drove his car into the people... That is all on him.
Here is an interesting piece that I labeled...
Thank Heavens for those Goofy Folks at the ACLU
Read what I wrote and stop inserting your own spin. It's not difficult.
The bar for Trump today was "say Nazis are bad" and we're at "attacked a black CEO" before noon.
No doubt that Trump is foolish.
Maybe he fears that if he alienates them... His approval rating will go below 30... :-)
Jokes about appeasing racists are always funny!
I have not seen any news or police reports about which side was instigating any or the most violent contact between the groups in VA. We don't know that they are equally responsible. I think the default answer is the nazis, KKK and other hateful groups that planned a march bear more responsibility. We do know which side killed and critically injured people and Trump and the promoters/organizers of these hateful groups share in responsibility for that.
How Trump Has Cultivated the White Supremacist Alt-Right for Years
So did Trump do okay this time?
It could have been a lot better (and it should be pointed out the White House has already backtracked -- going back to the "many sides" nonsense from Saturday in a statement sent after the speech).
* Didn't call the car attack "domestic terrorism"
* Didn't disavow the white supremacy groups that explicitly and publicly rallied behind his original statement and his campaign
* Didn't acknowledge the "alt-right" connections working down the hall from him in the White House (Bannon, Miller, and Gorka)
* Gave lip service to Saturday's victim (compare how he treated Heather Heyer versus Kate Steinle, for instance)
* Followed it up by telling Fox he was considering pardoning Sheriff Joe Arpaio (of the birther conspiracy and dozens of incidents of brutality directed against Latinos)
I am pretty sure you will never say that Trump done good...
Kind of like Jerry when Obama was the Pres...
When you have to be pressured to say "Nazis are bad", you're not going to get a huge pat on the back from me. If he had given that speech on Saturday, things would be different.
Instead, after two days of taking public heat and folks across the political spectrum pointing out specifically what was wrong with what he said on Saturday, that's the best he can do?
Let's also point out that in recent months, across multiple states, Republican politicians have entered bills that would make it legal to run over protesters who are in the street.
Probably not a bad idea since idiots keep walking out into the freeways
"North Dakota started the trend in January, with a bill in the aftermath of protests at Standing Rock that aimed to shield drivers who killed protesters with their cars from criminal and civil liability if they “exercised reasonable care.” The bill narrowly failed in the North Dakota House."
Is there nothing you won't excuse?
What do you disagree with about "if they “exercised reasonable care.” "?
I am not thinking anyone wants to give crazy people the right to intentionally plow people over...
If the guy in Charlotte intentionally ran people over like it seems he did, then I support throwing the book at him.
Prosecutors have discretion today to determine whether or not a driver was at fault in such an accident for criminal charges. The only point to these laws -- particularly the notion that they should be immune from civil liability -- is to tacitly encourage such behavior and if you don't believe that, check out some of your right-wing websites where it's actively encouraged.
this is from your own link:
"Rather, these bills are part of an attempt to quell and control civil rights movements. Republican legislators are attempting to ease restrictions on drivers murdering demonstrators. At the same time, they’re also trying to criminalize peaceful protest."
also, I have something to add to the discussion from earlier. Just because the KKK and neo nazis have equal legal right to free speech that doesn't make them morally equal to my antiwar protests. You seem to be conflating legality and morality. Their hateful racists chants are extremely offensive to everybody except the depraved.
They are very deserving of counter protests and had they held their hateful rally here I would have been part of the counter protest.
Hillary was correct about a great many things. Her "basket of deplorables" comment was particularly accurate.
Moose
Sean,
Are those alt right sites worse than these folks?
And sorry, I just don't see the folks in ND advocating intentionally running people over.
Laurie,
If you choose to go where these extremists from both sides are gathering... Please be careful...
"Are those alt right sites worse than these folks?"
My opinion on violence has been stated above. Are you capable of nothing more than whataboutisms?
"And sorry, I just don't see the folks in ND advocating intentionally running people over."
So what's the purpose of removing the possibility of criminal charges or a civil lawsuit, then? If you take away the possibility of punishment, you're likely to see an increase in the behavior, are you not?
Laurie,
I forgot to mention, I often grab sources at random. The one had some details however that does not mean I agree with their interpretation of the facts.
Sean,
They apparently are not eliminating the possibility of fines or punishment.
"if they “exercised reasonable care.”
They have just tried to apply some legal jargon to make it clear that if someone chooses to stand in the middle of the road in front of traffic. They are more to blame than an unsuspecting driver who did not see them.
Sean,
As for your opinion on violence, what you say and what you focus on seem different to me.
You keep hammering on Trump, White Supremacists and the peaceful citizens of ND. And seem totally unwilling to call out the violent Liberal extremists.
Kind of similar to Trump's unwillingness to challenge the alt-Right.
Moose,
Is it deplorable to expect that people honor the 1st Amendment, the rule of law and general polite conduct?
Or is it deplorable to clash physically and intentionally with people that you disagree with, intentionally strive to stifle there Freedom of Speech and to violate the laws regarding where one chooses to protest?
Now who gets to decide? Do we really want to devolve into mob rule?
It seems the alt- right deplorables have a bit have a bit of trouble with respecting the rule of law and general polite conduct...
"The FBI and the Department of Homeland Security in May warned that white supremacist groups had already carried out more attacks than any other domestic extremist group over the past 16 years and were likely to carry out more attacks over the next year, according to an intelligence bulletin obtained by Foreign Policy....
...The FBI, on the other hand, has already concluded that white supremacists, including neo-Nazi supporters and members of the Ku Klux Klan, are in fact responsible for the lion’s share of violent attacks among domestic extremist groups. White supremacists “were responsible for 49 homicides in 26 attacks from 2000 to 2016 … more than any other domestic extremist movement,” reads the joint intelligence bulletin....
FBI and DHS Warned of Growing Threat From White Supremacists Months Ago
sounds like a group deserving to have their rally protested to me. I don't understand why you keep defending these violent racists.
Mostly because you are dehumanizing and stereotyping them like they do to the minorities.
I disagree with that methodology as you know.
There are likely some very violent and disturbed members who must be dealt with to the full extent of the law.
At 11:30 MPR had a man on who had out grown the skin heads, he reminded the listeners that these people were not born as extremists. Most of them had very disturbing childhoods and then were drawn to the White Nationalists. Just like kids have been drawn to ISIS, Al Qaeda, the groups in Northern Ireland, gangs, etc.
If these were Black gang members legally marching how would that change your perspective? Would you try to ban and silence them?
Here is the guys organization.
Life After Hate
Tony Mcaleer Story
Some Gang Stats
Now I am pretty sure the nation's gangs do the most damage and kill the the most people in either a direct (shooting) or indirect way (ie drug over doses)... Where are all the counter-protesters to these really bad people?
Why do the Liberals focus so much time on the cops and the skin heads?
I just wish they were more consistent... If they truly want to save lives they should be stopping the gangs.
a computer glitch just caused me to lose my sort of lengthy (very insightful) comment which I don't want to retype . Part of it asked are you going to donate to Life after Hate as Trump has cut their funding by $400,000. I also said I might donate after I see how large of medical bill we get from a recent health scare and also I am cutting way back on the money I spend on my classroom this year.
btw the protests I have joined have a large number of compassionate people who are better than me with their love not hate type signs and spirit. (not that I am at all a hateful protester)
Probably not, though I may be supporting them through my United Way donations.
"You keep hammering on Trump"
He's the President of the United States! At times like this, it's his job to try and unite the country, and he couldn't care less.
"White Supremacists"
Am I supposed to be nice to them?
"and the peaceful citizens of ND."
Nope. Never said a thing about them. My comments were in reference to the people who sought the change in the law.
"And seem totally unwilling to call out the violent Liberal extremists."
As I said, I am opposed to violence. I do not approve of antifa methods. But I'm also not falling for the false equivalency trap. Antifa and neo-Nazis are not the same by any stretch of the imagination.
"it's his job to try and unite the country" Does that mean that all the disturbed citizens of the alt right are not citizens of this country? Should he have also called out the Antifa folks by name?
Well according to the sources I provided, meeting them with aggression and anger just energizes them and support their attracting new members. So... Your choice...
It was some citizens of ND who tried to change the law...
My guess is that the members of Antifa and the neo-Nazis have a lot in common. Likely disturbed young people who are looking for a cause and think that violence gives them power. Maybe like the Black Panthers.
"Should he have also called out the Antifa folks by name?"
The Antifa folks did not murder anyone.
Moose
Technically the other groups did not murder anyone either...
It was one enraged 20 year old who killed and injured people...
WP Driver History
NPR James Fields
Here is an interesting look into a parallel world...
Twitter Vanguard America
"Well according to the sources I provided, meeting them with aggression and anger just energizes them and support their attracting new members. So... Your choice..."
Since when do let the reactions of those who hold abhorrent ideology determine our response to them? By that logic, we should just let ISIS and Al-Qaeda do what they want, right?
"My guess is that the members of Antifa and the neo-Nazis have a lot in common."
The neo-Nazis subscribe to an ideology that resulted in the death of six million Jews when they were in power in Germany. Don't feed me this crap.
I have no issues with crushing ISIS, Al Qaeda, and/or the Neo Nazis when they violate laws... When they protest peacefully, that is what America allows.
Protesters Tear Down Statue
Man Removed from Near Statue as Crowd Jeers
It seems we are regressing to behaviors that I have only seen in Iraq...
"When they protest peacefully, that is what America allows."
They are not free from the consequences of their speech. One of those consequences is that they incited a disturbed young man to violence. Another consequence is that those who disagree also get to air their views.
Moose
How do you know it was the Alt Right folks who "incited a disturbed young man to violence"?
Isn't it possible that this disturbed young man was enraged/incited by seeing all of the counter protesters loudly and rudely disparaging his personal beliefs?
In essence the counter-protesters raised the stress level so high that he snapped?
Meaning that it was the Antifa folks who incited the murder?
As the sources say... Violence begets violence...
Now I have been in a lot of arguments in my time. (ie surprise)
When things escalate and things blow up, I have learned that is really hard to say who is at fault for the incitement...
Of course for most people that answer is simple...
"The Other Guy"... Because I was doing the right thing...
you get more idiotic with every comment and I am starting to think racist as well, with your reluctance to strongly condemn neo nazis views. I see no point in continuing with this discussion.
with the dumb laws you seem to support about making it legal to run over protesters this guy would probably use the "I was scared defense"
Yeah. This is no longer worth my time.
Nothing worse than a fence-sitter when people's lives are on the line.
Moose
Laurie,
I don't think I could have been any clearer...
"I am happy to say that the Nazis, KKK and other assorted Racists are wrong, however I do not believe that people who disagree with them should be free to prevent them from speaking.
Why do you believe that other citizens should be free to stifle their free speech rights?"
Now if you unintentionally drove into an idiot Neo-Nazi who chose to protest in the middle of a highway a night... Do you think you should be held liable for damages and possible criminal charges?
"Now if you unintentionally drove into an idiot Neo-Nazi who chose to protest in the middle of a highway a night... Do you think you should be held liable for damages and possible criminal charges?"
I don't think the law should be written to preemptively immunize such behavior. Prosecutors, judges, and juries can determine if a crime was committed or if civil damages need to be awarded.
It's fascinating how far you'll go to explain away the actions of a neo-Nazi, compared to how quick you'll blame certain others for their choices.
No, We're Not Encouraging This Behavior At All
After watching those videos... Why would you want to encourage people to block streets, by clearly explaining to them that they are responsible for their own injuries?
I thought I have been very consistent...
- Free speech is good, and should be supported even if we disagree
- I think neo Nazis and other similar concepts etc are wrong
- People who break the law should be punished
- People should experience the natural consequences of their own personal actions
- If you go to physically confront someone or you choose to stand in the middle of the street, don't whine when you get hurt
By the way, I am not trying to explain away his actions... I am trying to challenge the hero / villain perception that Moose stated.
"Isn't it possible that this disturbed young man was enraged/incited by seeing all of the counter protesters loudly and rudely disparaging his personal beliefs?"
I am thinking of all the times I have read comments of how the screwed person is the victim of police escalation and abuse... And yet in this case the Liberals do not see a screwed up person, but an evil villain. I just think it is an ironic twist.
"I am thinking of all the times I have read comments of how the screwed person is the victim of police escalation and abuse."
Tamir Rice is dead.
Eric Garner is dead.
Philando Castile is dead.
This guy ran his car into a crowd of people, and killed one of them.
And you're equating them? Maybe you need to step back from the keyboard for a while.
The party that went on and on and on about how Bill Clinton was terrible and disgraced the White House just had its President call the neo-Nazis "very fine people".
Personally I do not know who all from the alt right was in Charlotte, so he may be correct... I think he is trying to make the same point that I have been... Stop stereotyping and judge each person by their actions... But unfortunately he will be crucified for it...
The Liberals are out to stereotype every protester at the march as evil neo nazis... Even though they really don't know if some folks were there to protect historical statues...
ABC Trump Statement
"“I think there is blame on both sides. You look at both sides. I think there is blame object on both sides,” Trump said during remarks in Trump Tower today.
“You had some very bad people in that group. You also had some very fine people on both sides,” he said."
If you see a bunch a people with torches, swastikas, and Confederate flags who are chanting "Blood and Soil", "Jews Will Not Replace Us" and "White Lives Matter" and you decide to protest with them you are not a "very fine person". By your actions, you have revealed what you are.
NOT HISTORICAL
"The first began around 1900, amid the period in which states were enacting Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise the newly freed African Americans and re-segregate society. This spike lasted well into the 1920s, a period that saw a dramatic resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan, which had been born in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War.
The second spike began in the early 1950s and lasted through the 1960s, as the civil rights movement led to a backlash among segregationists. These two periods also coincided with the 50th and 100th anniversaries of the Civil War."
If you're not a Nazi, you're just as bad.
Moose
I might have to send in a question to Miss Manners for the first time ever: Is it considered rude to loudly disparage neo-nazis beliefs when they are chanting hateful racist slogans in the street? Must one always be polite to neo nazis?
So you are all absolutely certain that every protester there was a neo-nazi, skin head, racist?
Source please.
It just seems to me that you are dehumanizing them, just as you accuse them of doing.
OK, let's assume that a person felt that from a purely historical standpoint that the statue should stay and said person was not racist or antisemitic. If you show up and see that the march isn't a bunch of like-minded folks, but rather a bunch of neo-Nazis, why do you stay around and join with them? Who says, "Hey, I bet these dudes with swastikas and yelling the n-word and talking baout how Jews control everything are just the right people to help make sure the Confederate status stays up?"
Again, it's fascinating how far you will go to excuse white guy behavior but you're very quick to condemn black guy behavior.
There is no way an intelligent, non racist person should / would join that rally with neo nazis and the KKK. If one joins them they share in the blame for their views and actions. The racist views were central to this demonstration and not from some tiny faction. Someone could take their deep love of confederate history and write a letter to the editor about don't remove the statue.
interesting article (to me):
The Guns Won.
Charlottesville showed that our First Amendment jurisprudence hasn’t reckoned with our Second Amendment reality.
seems likely to be the way of the future. Could definitely be enough to limit my protesting.
It seems their was strife in the alt right ranks before the event.
DP Unite the Right Attracts More Radical Attention
NPR Collection of Groups
SLPC Bickering Galore
Just wondering if the crazy guy had not driven the people down, and the helicopter had not crashed... Would this chaos have been as upsetting to you?
For all this concern over weapons... Was anyone shot? I did not hear of anyone...
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