Tuesday, February 19, 2019

School Choice Re-visited

Forbes Six Reasons Why School Choice Won't Save Us
Jerry and I were arguing the school improvement thing again and I found the above interesting piece while researching a response..

I had asked him to provide me the "benchmark school" that I should research and that all should learn from...  And as usual he avoided giving me the name I seek...

"How about looking at modern schools and learning what is NOT working, for starters? Maybe ask why, when "better school" vouchers are offered, why hundreds line up for each one available. Or how about Khan academy?" Jerry

This discussion has been on going for nearly 10 years now.  He believes that vouchers will work miracles because the kids will be able to attend schools like "??????????"...  But then he refuses to share the name...  The big tease. :-)
American Progress Piece
Brookings Negative Impacts of Vouchers

35 comments:

Anonymous said...

Depends a lot on what your definition is of "working" and, I suppose, your definition of "not".

--Hiram

February 20, 2019 at 8:06 AM
John said...

There are 2 definitions that I find interesting:

1. Every child is progresses as far as they can between K - 12.

2. Every child attains or exceeds the minimum academic capability required to graduate. (ie at least base proficiency)

Note: Some percentage of Special needs children are not included in the above because of their capability limitations.

I think #2 is the more important definition. I don't think it is worth teaching some of the kids Calculus when a large number can not do basic algebra...


The challenge of course is that the luckiest kids have the most forceful and active lobbyists for Parents... And the unluckiest kids have barely capable Parents... Therefore the money often flows to activities / schools for the Lucky kids.

February 20, 2019 at 1:13 PM
Laurie said...

the biggest change that would come with vouchers is allowing kids to enroll in parochial schools and giving a tax break / vouchers to families that have already enrolled. I think these schools can kick out the trouble makers. I don't think the impact in MN would be that great except that it would cost schools by lowering enrollment and the state would pay money to parochial schools. I do not support vouchers.

February 20, 2019 at 3:52 PM
John said...

Maybe... Though I think it was Florida that only gives vouchers to poor households.

I disapprove of vouchers because they are just another incentive for people to leave the special ed and truly unlucky / challenging kids behind.

I mean what school is going to want them for a fixed ~$13,000 per year.

February 20, 2019 at 7:28 PM
jerrye92002 said...

Answer: a school that can actually EDUCATE for less than that, and make a profit. And it is not the competition that exists now that has the educrats worried, it is the competition that would spring up if the playing field were leveled by vouchers making all schools "free" like the publics are.

February 28, 2019 at 9:30 AM
John said...

Jerry,
You have yet to identify one modern school that can do that.

March 1, 2019 at 1:57 AM
jerrye92002 said...

How about half of all Minnesota public school districts? Even with their wastrel ways, extensive overhead, non-academic endeavors and amateur financial management, they still do better for less money than the other half.

March 1, 2019 at 8:31 AM
John said...

Again with the denying that parents and community are the primary cause of academic success.

March 1, 2019 at 10:17 PM
jerrye92002 said...

Again with the denying that some schools are better than others, while insisting that money spent matters. Your challenge was to name a school that does well on less than $13,000/ year. There are obviously over 100 districts in MN alone. What are the odds that those who do poorly with less (or with more) could learn from those that do well with less, if they gave out vouchers and allowed school choice? Did GM make better cars before there was competition?

March 2, 2019 at 8:55 AM
John said...

We currently have plenty of competition. (ie public locals, public magnets, public charters, open enrollment, families free to move, privates, home schooling, etc)

Now the question is which of these schools should the others be learning from?

What should the other schools learn?


Remember that competition makes winners and losers.
The inner city school kids have already lost as more affluent families fled those communities.
Your proposals would make it worse for the unlucky and special needs kids.

March 2, 2019 at 6:31 PM
jerrye92002 said...

How about we quit this nonsense about the only way a poor black kid can learn is if he sits next to a rich white kid, and offer BOTH of them the opportunity to flee the failing school? The rich kid already can, and probably has. You cannot reasonably say we have "enough choice" until you actually OFFER that choice to every family, by putting all schools on the same "cost basis"-- i.e. "free"-- as the failing public schools. Not sure where you get your ideas, but I am betting if you surveyed all parents and asked if they wanted a "better school" for their child, if it was free and available to them, a wide majority of "unlucky" parents would jump at the chance.

While we are at it, why not either reform or abolish the State and Federal DOE? They are great at imposing regulations and rules, and somewhat at gathering statistics, but terrible at what they SHOULD be doing, which is gathering and sharing "best practices." Just within MN, when results vary by 2:1 for schools with the same per-pupil spending, something can certainly be learned from the top performers.

March 3, 2019 at 7:55 AM
John said...

Jerry,
I am tired and jet lagged even after sleeping for the last 14 hours.... But I will try...

This is not a race issue...

It is not technically even a wealth issue...

It is a parent issue... Does the parent(s):
- value education / academics
- provide a stable home life
- prepare their child(ren) for kindergarten
- assist and hold their child(ren) accountable
- partner with teachers

Unfortunately a lot of parent(s) are unable or unwilling to fulfill these basic parental responsibilities and no school can compensate for this. :-(

And you have no desire to help the kids of these parent(s).

March 3, 2019 at 10:44 AM
jerrye92002 said...

"...no school can compensate for this" I would ask you for a source, but fundamental logic says this is simply not true. That it is your opinion does not make it true.

On what possible evidence can you even make that statement, since there are large segments of the population "trapped" in "unlucky" neighborhoods and unable to afford better schools? Again, I will agree that poverty (often associated with race and racial "cultural factors") create disadvantages for "unlucky kids." What I don't understand is why you have no desire to help these kids, and prefer to build on those educational disadvantages rather than relieving them.

March 3, 2019 at 2:44 PM
John said...

I have a proposal to address all the causes not just one of the small ones.

And it would help all of the kids in all schools, not just the few.

March 3, 2019 at 5:22 PM
John said...

By the way, the schools that do help kids escape the academic / poverty trap require the parent(s) to learn and perform.

2 things that you resist making them do.

March 3, 2019 at 5:25 PM
jerrye92002 said...

You seem to require making parents do things that, by your own admission they are unable and unwilling to do. My proposal requires schools to do something that they KNOW how to do, and WANT to do, but are not currently doing. Seems to me you are pushing a very long string uphill.

Your proposal is not a simple fix, and the complexity and indirectness argue against success, just in general. In particular it does little for kids already in a failing school. Whereas if you simply hand out a voucher to every parent, the competition created will improve both price and quality, as it has in every other free-market product or endeavor. Simple, quick, direct.

March 3, 2019 at 7:29 PM
John said...

As usual. We disagree.

March 3, 2019 at 8:53 PM
jerrye92002 said...

Please be specific. Do you deny saying that poor parenting is due to parents "unwilling and unable" to do better? Do you deny that some schools perform better than others, even with the same demographic mix of students? Do you deny that the vast majority, including the parents of "unlucky kids," want what is best for their kids but often cannot afford anything except the nearby "free" public school, however poor it is?

And I have agreed with you. Poor kids are disadvantaged educationally. It will cost more to educate them since they have "further to go." I know, I have worked with a few. Supposedly the State Aid formula fully compensates for this disadvantage and provides an "equal" education for everybody, but it is obviously untrue, both anecdotally and statistically. Deny all you want, but our education system is not working for too many kids, and fixing the blame on parents only distracts from fixing the problem.

"According to a study conducted in late April by the U.S. Department of Education and the National Institute of Literacy, 32 million adults in the U.S. can't read. That's 14 percent of the population. 21 percent of adults in the U.S. read below a 5th grade level, and 19 percent of high school graduates can't read."

huffpost says

March 4, 2019 at 7:56 AM
jerrye92002 said...

You can disagree with me. Do you want to disagree with 65% of the public, or with real statistics? inconvenient truth

March 4, 2019 at 8:46 AM
John said...

These are more amusing Inconvenient Truths...

Comic 1
Comic 2
Comic 3
Sad Graphic 1

March 4, 2019 at 4:20 PM
jerrye92002 said...

I am not amused. Why do you hate children?

March 4, 2019 at 5:33 PM
John said...

I love children...

That is why I don't give bad, incapable and/or irresponsible parent(s) a free pass like someone I know...

It is also why I support thorough sex education, free quality birth control and easy / cheap first trimester abortions.

No child should be an accident that the parent(s) are not willing and capable to raise well.

March 4, 2019 at 6:04 PM
jerrye92002 said...

You love children? Then may I assume that all of these "unlucky kids" can come and live with you?

Perhaps I should have asked a different question. Why do you hate poor people so much you would deny them the right or even ability to bring children into the world? Besides, unless you want to go all Hitler-eugenics on the world, the topic is and should be education. I really want to know, if you operated any sort of service business, let's say a plumbing business, and after 12 years of operation you discovered that 19 percent of your repairs still had serious leaks to the point of unusable, would you still be in the plumbing business?

March 5, 2019 at 9:32 AM
John said...

In my proposal, every person is free to have a child or 2...

And if they want to stay of Medicaid and welfare, they have as many as they want.

As for plumbing, please remember that they get to pick quality materials and control the installation site and process... Where as our public schools:
- have to take everyone
- only have a access to a small percent of the child's life
- have no control over their home / social situations

Parent(s) matter much more than schools. And unfortunately for many kids that is a real problem.

March 5, 2019 at 11:00 AM
jerrye92002 said...

I'll remind you that we only invite plumbers into our home for a tiny fraction of our lives, and to do some very specific work (for which we assume they are qualified), and for which they are handsomely paid. If we used poor materials in the construction and now have corrosion and leaks, we expect the plumber to remediate that (and charge us).

You continue to say, while never admitting it, that poor and mostly black children are simply incapable of being educated and that their poor academic performance is the fault of the parents, not the school (usually 70/30) if I recall). Those estimates, however, place ALL the blame on the parents and none on the efforts of the school to remediate. If I hire a plumber to stop the flooding in my house, and he reduces it only to where the drain can keep up, leaving a permanent foot-deep pool, whom do I blame for that failure? Fortunately I have a choice of plumbers and will quickly engage another. What is the choice given to every parent for their child's schooling?

March 5, 2019 at 11:41 AM
John said...

Well we know that schools with good quality "materials" do a wonderful job also.

It is the schools who receive unprepared and unsupported "materials" who often have engrained and continually reinforced bad habits who struggle.

I have perfect faith that every child can learn if you train their parent(s) and make them perform their parent responsibilities. That is why I support the HCZ model.

It is the parent(s) job to raise the kids, not the schools.

March 5, 2019 at 12:21 PM
jerrye92002 said...

"It is the parent(s) job to raise the kids, not the schools." Did you ask the schools their take on this? Legislators and educrats seem to think it THEIR job, and that parents should not have a choice. "You'll take the education we give you."

I have perfect faith that every child can learn, period. The public schools have long been society's commitment to providing that learning environment, and failure to do so should be met with a search for competitive alternatives, not excuses. Have you not heard of turnaround schools? They show it is possible.
edweek

“A school can create a coherent environment,” a climate more potent than any single influence—teachers, class, family, neighborhood—“so potent that for at least six hours a day it can override almost everything else in the lives of children” (Edmonds, 1986).

March 5, 2019 at 2:08 PM
John said...

Well here is an analysis of Turn Around Schools. The results appear mixed at best.

And more study

No miracles present.

March 5, 2019 at 2:45 PM
jerrye92002 said...

"mixed results"???

"Overall, through five years of implementation, iZone schools have positive and statistically significant effects on reading, math, and science test scores relative to Priority schools receiving no interventions. The size of the gains in iZone schools are comparable to other successful school turnaround interventions across the U.S."

March 6, 2019 at 6:57 AM
jerrye92002 said...

I disagree with your "simple logic" because it consists entirely of blatant prejudice against those who are unable or unwilling to live up to your idea about what constitutes "good parenting." In addition, you want to excuse schools who fail to overcome the disadvantages that SOME kids have because of their family situation, despite rampant anecdotal and statistical evidence to the contrary. You are focused on fixing the blame rather than fixing the problem. Government has had 60 years to eliminate poverty and its adverse educational side-effects, and it is worse than ever. Only recently have small pockets of education improvements been adopted, and some have been successful, while you suggest that such attempts should not be attempted because poverty hasn't been eliminated. I don't understand it.

March 6, 2019 at 7:38 AM
John said...

Please note that iZone was one gainer amongst a number of same or worse "turnarounds" evaluated... It may require further study.

My expectations are pretty low for Lucky Kids:
- parents impress the value of a good education
- kid(s) ready for kindergarten
- parents work with teachers
- kid(s) washed, fed and in a stable non-abusive home
- parents ensure kid's do homework
- kid(s) are not absent from school
- parents provide a positive behavioral role model
- etc

March 6, 2019 at 8:29 AM
jerrye92002 said...

That's quite a long list, IMHO, for kids to be considered "lucky," especially when you are the one setting the standards. Is it possible that having only half of these advantages would be good enough, especially if the school would build on those rather than simply leaving them behind?

And if there are "gainers" among all of those programs being tried, does that mean we should not do ANY of them?

March 6, 2019 at 12:23 PM
John said...

Which half would you say a Parent should not have to do?
I broke them into an even number and numbered them for your convenience.

1. parents impress the value of a good education
2. parents ensure kid(s)are ready for kindergarten
3. parents work with teachers
4. parents ensure kid(s) are washed and fed
5. parents ensure are in a stable non-abusive home
6. parents ensure kid's do homework
7. parents ensure kid(s) are not absent from school
8. parents provide a positive behavioral role model

If one zebra out of five can slightly beat a horse in the race.

Should everyone have access to zebra at tax payers expense?

My answer would be NO. Though we should study that one zebra to see if we can determine what was special about it.

March 6, 2019 at 1:28 PM
jerrye92002 said...

It is not necessary that the zebra beat every horse in the race, or every zebra. It is only necessary that it be faster than the slowest zebra, which is the one the lion gets. This competition continues to improve the species over time, which is what we should have in education-- the wisdom of the free market, chosen by the "customers." You seem to insist on helping the lions.

March 8, 2019 at 8:00 PM
John said...

Chicken... Bawk Bawk Bawk...

March 9, 2019 at 6:56 PM

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