Is an excellent idea. Now hopefully this is something that a super majority of politicians can support.
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- John
- I am married and we have 3 adult daughters and a dog. We live in Plymouth MN. My interests are learning, communicating, home improvement projects, motorcycling, boating, and other outside activities. Thank you for reading my blog and have a great day !!!
76 comments:
Your title is misleading at best. This business is all Democrat Kabuki theater.
Please note that it is a bi-partisan bill, even newsmax acknowledges that.
And do you really want a VP denying the election result?
It is like you want the USA to be ruled by a dictatorship... :-O
The election was not stolen by the acceptance of the fraudulent results. It was stolen by massive cheating during the election and this bill does NOTHING about that. The only saving grace is that it does NOT include all of the former Democrat "Help Democrats Cheat Act" they pushed so hard.
"by massive cheating during the election"
Prove it...
These GOPers have proven that it was fair and legal.
I believe that when people say the election was stolen, what they mean is that too many of the wrong people voted. There has always been a view that only people with a stake, whatever that might be, in our country should be allowed to vote. We can't say that explicitly anymore, that would be politically incorrect. Instead, barriers are created which, in the hope of their supporters, will do indirectly what liberals and other evil doers, not allow them to do directly.
--Hiram
My question is this.
Why was it possible for Donald Trump to question Barack Obama's citizenship and be taken moderately seriously, while nobody thought to challenge Donald Trump's? What is the pertinent difference between the two men?
--Hiram
A bunch of Trump supporting racists apparently found it easy to believe a black man with the name Obama was not a US citizen by birth.
Confirmation bias at its simplest...
Just like why Jerry can not believe his hero President was fired and replaced with Biden... Even though I keep telling him that millions of law and order moderates like me and my friends changed our votes between 2016 and 2020.
If a human wants to believe something, they will find a way to do so.
"Either you are closing your eyes to a situation you do not wish to acknowledge..." You cannot find [voting irregularities] you do not look for. I've seen more than enough and your simplistic denials of that reality aren't changing my mind.
It is sad that you do not trust your friends and countrymen... :-(
It must be exhausting and depressing to be so cynical...
Have a great weekend !!!
What friends and countrypeople are you talking to? Everybody I know not only believes the 2020 election involved some cheating, but many of them actually observed it, after the fact, taking place! Should I call them all liars just so I can agree with you? Mind you, it is all written down, here and there, in official documents.
I must admit I am cynical, but only about one thing, and that is the absolute, willful blindness with which you approach this topic. "Either you are closing your eyes to a situation you do not wish to acknowledge..." or ... I'm not going to finish this sentence.
You must not know many people...
Given that only the far right folks believe like you...
70% of 40% of the citizens equals 28% of Americans
Of the 200 people I know in the Election Integrity organization, local leaders all, we agree and are working to actually "close [well-known] election loopholes." You, OTOH, keep insisting they do not exist. And what makes you think that 28% of citizens are wrong and you alone hold absolute truth? Arrogance? Hubris? Bamboozled?
Are you talking about those voter suppression folks at MN Voters Alliance?
I am sorry but the FOX, OAN and Newsmax cult members do not impress me.
They chase too many shadows...
I am talking about many of your fellow citizens with real-life experience and knowledge. You are asking me to accept your reality and deny theirs. Why am I unpersuaded? Now, if you would simply acknowledge the possibility, or better yet look at actual election law and practice, you might be able to reach a rational position on the subject, rather than your knee-jerk, TDS obsession.
Well feel free to stay comfortable in your echo chamber.
I will look for less biased sources.
You've just said so much and do not, apparently, realize it. You are going to look for "unbiased sources," while setting yourself up as the sole judge of what bias (and truth) is. That is, any information that does not match your pre-conceived notion of truth must be discarded as "biased." And you do not seem to allow any source whatsoever to alter your notion of actual facts, even refusing to look for facts that might inform your own opinions. It's what makes conversations like this so pointless. Your title is "closing election loopholes" yet you will not even acknowledge that MN has some of the loosest election laws in the nation, and the legislation in DC would do NOTHING about that. The only echo chamber is the one in your own head.
The States, Congress, Courts and even a panel of GOP experts deny your concerns regarding the 2020 election... And yet you continue...
And you think I am the "sole judge"?
Yes, because you have no opinion of your own about "closing election loopholes." You are assuming that those who agree with you about the outcome of the election have facts and those who disagree with you have none. You are the sole judge of how to exercise your obvious bias in this. AND, you are assuming that the completely ignorant pronouncements being made about the /outcome/ of the election say something about the truth of how that outcome might have been affected by "election loopholes." When can we discuss the topic as presented?
As the articles note, this is how to ensure we do not have another January 6th debacle.
As you said... It is pointless to discuss election integrity loop holes...
You want to build a wall around the voting booth to make it hard for shut ins, the poor and the highly mobile citizens to cast their vote. Even though there is no evidence that we have a significant problem. (ie elections outcomes changed)
And no, statements from your conspiracy minded friends do not count as evidence. Just like statements from Liberals do not count as evidence.
BS, and your usual ad hominem rather than addressing the real issue. I daresay you have not studied MN election law, have not considered the merits of the various election integrity lawsuits, have not participated in the actual audits or reviews or observations, and have not done a thorough analysis of the detailed election results, let alone the forensics thereof. I will say again, it is pointless to discuss this with you because all you have is an /opinion/, backed up by "sources" which have as little relevant information as you do.
"When can we discuss the topic as presented?"
"You want to build a wall around the voting booth to make it hard for shut ins, the poor and the highly mobile citizens to cast their vote. Even though there is no evidence that we have a significant problem. (ie elections outcomes changed)"
Please prove, with real data, BOTH of those statements.
Not worth time...
You won't even accept the finding of the GOP commission. :-(
I have participated in a recount. It was in Chisago county. There were no discrepancies at all.
I actually wondered what an election audit was. If you look at the definition, it's a formal examination or review. How does it differ from a recount? What I suspect it means is that after a recount has been done, an audit is what you call it when you look at the ballots again but don't want to call it a recount.
The biggest problem with reviewing voter security is the secret ballot. It's an open invitation to election fraud. Basically, you can never know whether a ballot was properly cast unless you know all the circumstances of how it was cast. It's the only way you can tell if the voter was qualified to vote, and that all procedures were followed. It is the only way I know of to really ensure election security. The founders would have recognized it, it's how they voted. Is that the system to which we should return? What other system would be nearly as secure? Given it's security, why did we get rid of it in the first place? Did we think other considerations mattered more than security?
--Hiram
Unrelated but interesting
I am not accepting anything but what i know. It is the opposite of you, accepting whatever you are told. And what you say about me MUST be a lie because,like everything else here, you have no direct knowledge.
Hiram, your argument seems to suggest no restrictions on any voter. I did a recount and an audit and cheating was obvious in both.
Did the numbers not balance?
--Hiram
Hiram,
I am more curious if the Election Judge agreed with Jerry interpretation of reality?
And what happened next?
Another strange one from the crazies...
"One of the loudest advocates in the battleground state, a Republican state lawmaker who is running for governor, wants the Legislature to rescind Biden's 10 Electoral College votes from Wisconsin. The resolution on decertification that he hopes to submit in August claims, despite the evidence, that there was widespread fraud in the election. He said he is not seeking to undo victories by anyone else in 2020, including his own race."
Apparently DEMs only cheated on 1 line of the ballot... :-O :-)
That continues to be my favorite tidbit of this whole mess. Every down ballot election that went Republican's way was fine, but somehow tons of the votes for president were fraud. Man, that's some high level fraud and I am super impressed.
Must have been a LOT of one vote ballots turned in... :-O
Well, yes, there were. And like a previous recount, most of them occurred in stacks, all in a row, with identical markings. What are the odds that 100 people, at random but all one right after the other, voted ONLY for one candidate, using the same pen and the same pattern of filling the oval?
Hiram, the numbers did not "balance" because there was no check done, and John, election judges were not involved in most of the counting-- deliberately excluded by "election law."
Jerry,
So again, if this happened...
"most of them occurred in stacks, all in a row, with identical markings."
What happened next?
What district, year and election was this?
Was there a Law Suit? What was the ruling?
Show me any evidence of that from anywhere reputable and I will read it. The only verifiable "mass fraud" I've seen has been the multiple incidences of votes for Trump done improperly. I think I saw one lady get caught for voting in two districts with Biden votes, and the woman who voted with a provisional ballot because she wasn't sure about whether she could vote or not, and she couldn't, but you'd have thought she dropped off a garbage can of ballots for how that was reported.
This is where things usually end with Jerry's claims...
We ask for details and he can not provide them...
And like a previous recount, most of them occurred in stacks, all in a row, with identical markings. What are the odds that 100 people, at random but all one right after the other, voted ONLY for one candidate,
I don't know what the odds are. Does anyone?
In the recount I participated in, no one compared or thought to compare ballots. It never occurred to me, certainly.
If stacks" of ballots were submitted, how was it that they were identical? Down to the ovals being filled identically? If you were filling out spurious ballots, wouldn't you vary them in irrelevant ways? How would it even be possible to fill the ovals in the same way? And what about the count? Since the number of ballots has to tally roughly with the number of ballots passed out, how would it be possible to do that in exact terms? How would you go about removing the same number of ballots you cast spuriously while remaining undetected such that the numbers tally?
--HIram
Following that line of thought.
How would they have stayed together through delivery and 2 counts?
Drewbie,
You should know that most of the more lengthy "discussions" here end in the same way. I try to relieve the colossal ignorance on display by pointing to black-letter law, well-documented election practice, court decisions, reliable and extensive studies, extensive and varied mathematical analysis PLUS my many personal experiences, and rather than go to look for them, John simply dismisses them out of hand, as "not credible." For just one example, what is "not credible" about black-letter Minnesota election law? It is utter nonsense in the single-minded rush to confirm some preconceived notion.
I suppose John's argument that I "do not provide details" Would have some merit if he actually went looking for some of the things I described in general terms, but when he basically calls me a liar for describing my personal experiences and things I know for absolute truth, it somehow makes me less interested in pursuing the argument.
"How would they have stayed together through delivery and 2 counts?"
Sometimes, John, you answer your own question and do not even realize it! That is a good question, but in asking it you offer only two possible responses: A) Some one person actually cheated and introduced a whole stack of fraudulent ballots directly into the system, all one right after the other, or b) I lied about seeing it twice.
I know which answer I like, and which one you do not.
SO.....
You are not going to provide any actionable data to back up your claim as usual...
Oh well, no surprise there.
"A) Some one person actually cheated and introduced a whole stack of fraudulent ballots directly into the system, all one right after the other, or b) I lied about seeing it twice."
It's most likely that you're lying.
Moose
So, you (and Moose) are going to call me a liar without EVER bothering to look for data which might challenge your outrageously high confirmation bias. SO easy that I can find it, and you can't? And much of the voting public suspects it, yet you find absolutely no basis for being a skeptic. Sad.
SO.....
You are not going to provide any actionable data to back up your claim as usual...
Oh well, no surprise there.
Here is some "actionable data" for you. Convince the vast majority of Americans that our election was as honest as you claim. And remember, I'm lying and have a very minority view.
5 out of 6
cheating made easy
And we all know this scheme is available pretty much nationwide, particularly in MN. I think I could do it; it's that easy. Point is these "fraudulent" voters never get caught. We have to "close the loopholes."
No distractions Jerry.
Jerry,
So again, if this happened...
"most of them occurred in stacks, all in a row, with identical markings."
What happened next?
What district, year and election was this?
Was there a Law Suit? What was the ruling?
I think the basic idea is that the wrong people are voting. People are voting who do not have a sufficient stake in the outcome of elections.
--Hiram
Why do you want to know?? How would these details make it more true?
And how is it a "distraction" to talk about election loopholes and offer the proof you have been demanding?
Jerry,
You made a very outrageous specific claim regarding something that happened in MN. We want to follow that claim.
Proving that people can get ballots is not proving that people are using them... That would show up when the real person was not being allowed to vote because they had already voted. Which apparently is NOT happening.
You want to "follow that claim" but you cannot. I observed these anomalies but had no authority to prevent their being counted, and they disappeared into the corrupted result. By saying these did not occur, you are clearly lying.
And you are right. Proving that people can get ballots doesn't mean they are using them. Nor does it mean they are NOT, therefore all suspicion, skepticism and distrust of the election is justified. Your claim that election cheating does not occur has zero credibility until we close these "loopholes." I entered this conversation thinking that you wanted to discuss how to do that, but instead you deny they even exist. I'm not claiming the level of cheating matters, though I believe it did. I'm claiming the potential was there and that it is unacceptable for us not to eliminate such possibility to the degree possible and restore faith in our elections process. You obviously would rather the cheating continue.
Keep believing as you wish...
Is that the best you can do? Call me a liar and then desert the topic while never acknowledging the large amount of effort you have put in to simply deny the truth IOTTMCO?
Jerry,
You and your conspiracy minded friends have no evidence of significant cheating.
Just stories... As you have proven again...
I will stick with trusting our friends / neighbors, and supporting the USA's critical institutions.
That's better; crawl off into the depths of delusion and denial. We have massive proof, but you simply deny it. It's everywhere, and if "we" are to be dismissed as "conspiracy theorists" then we have been far more successful than you cheaters have. Ask most people if cheating occurred in the 2020 election, and they will say yes, whether they have "stories" or not. Those who took part and have considerable real knowledge know it for certain. So why should we believe you, who know nothing except "trust"? And mind you, it isn't MY "friends and neighbors" doing the cheating, but a small band of zealots who believe in any means necessary, and know how to exploit the election loopholes that have been deliberately left open by Democrats.
Again, if the election was as honest as you believe, what is the harm in closing those loopholes that you claim were never used?
Whatever makes you happy.
Though I see seeking to undermine faith in the USA and its systems as very non-American thing to do. Maybe you are working for the Russians and Chinese.
Perhaps we should test your knowledge of this issue. Question 1 should Secretary of State Steve Simon be required to follow court orders regarding election processes? Question 2 should Secretary of State Steve Simon be required to follow Minnesota law regarding election procedures? Question 3 should all county auditors (election officials) be required to follow Minnesota law regarding election procedures?
I think the judges have ruled on this already...
And any necessary adjustments were made...
You /think/? At best you should say "I FEEL" because you certainly have no facts on which to make that statement. Start by taking a stab at answering the questions, and then I will help you. Hint, all three answers are the same.
Well I can't wait to see if your MVA voter suppression friends launch anymore nuisance law suits.
One of the problems with all conspiracies is that they are so difficult to conceal. Too many people become and involved and sooner or later, many of them for a number of reasons, spill the beans. Election fraud is like that. In 2020, there was a concerted effort to steal the election, and we know now an amazing amount about it. Despite a concerted effort to conceal the evidence, most recently, the thorough erasing of text evidence engaged in by members of the Secret Service and other executive branch employees, we know a great deal about what went on in the Trump White House. I think it is possible that once the criminal prosecutions start, once the grand juries are impaneled, we will learn a great deal more. Time is the limiting factor. We know that once Republicans take control of the house next year, congressional investigations into election fraud will cease and we will turn to hearings about Hunter Biden's laptop. And of course, if Republicans win the White House in 2024, any of Trump's co conspirators who don't snitch can expect pardons.
--Hiram
"I can't wait to see..." Again, you admit you know nothing about "election integrity" and cannot possibly have any knowledge applicable to correctly answering the three questions I asked. Want to try again?
Hiram, it is entertaining to notice that you can only find election cheating on one side of the political divide-- your side. It is if you, the Democrats and their phony-baloney J6 committee, and the major media were engaged in a conspiracy to distract us from the REAL election theft THEY perpetrated.
And it does not require a conspiracy to steal an election. A few dozen well-placed individuals, deciding on their own that they have the right to change election results within their purview, can accomplish the same thing. And since John seems either incapable or unwilling, would YOU care to answer the three questions?
How did we keep such an extensive fraud secret?
Trump's idea of stealing an election did depend on the idea of finding a few well placed individuals who would do the job for him. He thought the governor and secretary of state of Georgia could do it, we have the tapes for that. How many other, similar calls, did he make for which we don't have evidence?
Trump asked the Secretary of State of Georgia, a well placed individual, I suppose, to change the election result. How would have done that? How would he have given Trump the 12,000 votes he needed to carry the state? What, exactly, did Trump have in mind? That the guy could simply report different numbers on his own? That no one would notice?
--Hiram
Now that is funny... Talking about the pot calling the kettle black...
"It is entertaining to notice that you can only find election cheating on one side of the political divide-- your side."
This from the king of "they do it, we did not and don't" :-O
And then he calls testimony by GOP insiders "phony-baloney"?
Oh my... :-(
Read your links Jerry. 83% saying they're concerned about election integrity does not mean 83% feel the election was stolen. I'm concerned about election integrity because we were very close to having a guy who lost the election invalidate the votes of millions of American's because he believes that staying in power is the only way he can stay out of jail.
I also saw on the same poll that Capitol Riot Investigation is a major concern for 57% of people. Didn't seem to fit the narrative of the opinion piece you cited. The Gateway Pundit is far from what I would consider a legitimate new source. I mean, one of their sister sites is ProTrumpNews.com so clearly they don't play favorites at all.
Seriously, come out of your comfort bubble. Consume less bullshit. You'll feel better for it.
Drewbie,
I have come to the conclusion that too many people just can not escape their negative impulses.
I agree that they would likely be happier and have more positive relationships if they could.
"A few dozen well-placed individuals, deciding on their own that they have the right to change election results within their purview, can accomplish the same thing."
Ironic.
Moose
Moose,
Unfortunately I think the irony that he is describing in great detail Team Trump's philosophy is lost on Jerry...
I mean Trump had hoped that his VP would be willing to thwart the will of the people.
"83% saying they're concerned about election integrity does not mean 83% feel the election was stolen." -- Drewbie
Congratulations on being the first commenter in this long string to actually address the subject at hand. Since the topic is "closing election loopholes" it does not matter one iota whether the election was "stolen" or not. Too bad that after this intelligent comment you fall back into the very lack-of-discernment error you have just described. Like the others here you contend that either A) Trump or the Republicans or some Sinister cabal attempted to "steal the election" (a dubious conclusion based on flimsy evidence) but WITHOUT resorting to election loopholes, or that B) there were no election loopholes and therefore Biden won fair and square. NEITHER of these addresses the topic at hand! And I have seen no attempt by anyone to answer the topic question by delving into the matter of how to "close election loopholes."
I find it particularly telling that no one is even willing to hazard an opinion or wild eyed guess as to the answers of my three fundamental questions about election integrity. It sure would be nice if we could get back to the topic sometime.
Jerry,
Yes we realize that you want to make it harder for the young, old, poor, Black, Brown, homeless, etc to vote. Even though you can prove no need to do so.
Yes we realize that you support many of the voter suppression techniques.
Thankfully you are in the minority on this form and in the country.
And hopefully the majority of Americans will fight against the evil that you apparently support.
I think we have beat this one to death...
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