The question that it raised in my mind was:"You've got some good points. Also, depending on who you get the money from, also determines what you feel about the gift:
1. A sense of Entitlement 2. Gratitude"
Does anyone feel Gratitude when receiving money or a service via the Government?
I mean, the "Government" is just a pass through like PRISM, Sharing and Caring Hands, Feed My Starving Children, St Judes, United Way, Red Cross, etc. "They/we" take other people's money and distribute it to folks that need help. (And yes J, they forcibly gather/steal it if citizens resist society's mandate/norm/law) {ie society's enforcers} "They/we" feed the needy, fund medical procedures, rebuild homes, rescue people, pay bills, educate, provide Global Policing and hundreds of other beneficial services and products.
So do the citizens and other beneficiaries that benefit from this charity feel Gratitude. Do they feel a desire to minimize their draw on this gift and the giver?
OR
Do they rationalize that they have paid taxes in the past, and that this in some way Entitles them to maximize the benefit to themselves?
Using 2 examples from the last post, will these folks feel Gratitude for what their fellow citizen's gave up to give them a head start or retirement security? Will they think they succeeded all by themselves? Will they think their fellow citizens should pay for their being irresponsible and not having a diverse savings plan?
"child who came to kindergarten unable to speak English, and who graduates fromBy the way, this does not apply only to the poor and needy... Do we feel Gratitude for our safe streets? Do we feel Gratitude for the great roads? Do we feel Gratitude for Tax Deductions? Do we feel Gratitude for Unemployment funds? Do we feel gratitude for subsidies that support our industry? Do we feel gratitude for being able to chase the American Dream? Etc Etc Etc
high school with honors."
"person whose pension was wiped out by the mismanagement of their employer, and who is now dependent on a government job now, to put food on the table, and who will be dependent on the nanny state's retirement benefits, and the nanny state's Social Security to put food on the table in the future."
OR
Are we entitled to maximize our personal benefits at the expense of ourselves and other tax payers?
Thoughts?
11 comments:
I feel a sense of gratitude for the education I received at a public school and to the teachers who provided it. I feel a sense of gratitude to the police and the firefighters who protect my property and my life. I feel a sense of gratitude to the legislators and elected officials of all parties who serve their constituents so selflessly, and at great personal sacrifice, a sense of gratitude reinforced by events of recent days. I feel a sense of gratitude to the service men and women who put their lives at risk every second of every hour of every day to keep our nation safe.
Do I feel a sense of gratitude to the services our government for the services it provides? Yes, I do.
"Do we feel gratitude for subsidies that support our industry?"
I think businesses should express gratitude for the subsidies they receive from us. I was a little miffed during the last baseball season when the Twins didn't really seem to thank the taxpayers of Hennepin County who provided them such a beautiful stadium to play in. I thought the very least they could do was have a "Hennepin County Day", when everyone who could produce Hennepin County proof of residence would get a ticket discount, or even just a free hot dog.
Again, forced taxation to fund government handouts is not charity. Government cannot do charity because it's NOT THEIR MONEY! If "we"-- i.e. you and I and "anonymous"-- want to take care of some poor soul, we ought to be free to do that, or to NOT do that, with OUR money.
Am I grateful to government for what they "give" me? Heck, no! Why would you thank a thief? I've paid for everything through the taxes I've paid, and I was promised certain things in exchange. If I don't get those things, I'm going to be angry at government for promising them, even if they AND I both knew at the time they couldn't deliver on those promises. Those things they DO manage to deliver are simply fulfilling a contract-- a quid pro quo-- and gratitude isn't necessary.
J. Ewing
I can go both ways on this one, however I think most people are like J... "I pay the Government/Society something... So they owe me money, results, services, etc... (ie a contract) And since they never meet my personal expectations, I feel entitled to ask for more."
And if a $100,000 income household works ~4 mths to pay all their fees, taxes, etc... Then they probably expect quite a bit for that $33,333/yr that they pay Government/Society. This is why they don't feel bad about demanding that check, school, bike path, bailout, light rail, job, etc .... They truly believe they are owed it, and are therefore rarely Grateful.
Now for a different perspective. Us citizens voluntarily live in this country/society, no one is forcing us to stay here. (ie Canada is a short trip North) For the privelage of living here and having the chance to grow wealthy, we agree to follow the laws and freely give a portion of our earnings to support the Government/Society.
From this perspective, it is us citizen's that freely choose to enter into a contract with the Govt/Society. And Society has every right to expect its members to live up to the obligations that it has put forth via the laws and tax code. Therefore there is no theft, we are simply paying our rightful and just dues...
As for "Government cannot do charity because it's NOT THEIR MONEY!"... Almost all organized charitees spend other peoples money... That's what they do.
After some thought, I am sometimes frustrated that the dues are so high. However, I will happily pay them and be incredibly Grateful for the Country and Society that has enabled my great life.
If you doubt the importance of this Country/Society's contributions to your success, checkout how most of the other 6.8 billion humans are living... Population Clock I am not arrogant enough to believe that I would be this educated or well off if I was born and raised in India, Nigeria, Thailand, Russia, China, etc.
My Father quotes one of his friends as saying something like this... "I am very Grateful when my taxes increase, because usually that means I am making more money !!!"
By the way, citizen's should still work to ensure Society's operating cost is optimized. Otherwise our Society will suffer as it's revenue generating capability is squashed. (ie Excessive society costs = Waste = Low Incomes/GDP = Low Taxes/Funding = Poor Society)
"As for 'Government cannot do charity because it's NOT THEIR MONEY!'... Almost all organized charitees spend other peoples money... That's what they do."
The astronomical gap between the two is that charities spend OPM voluntarily given to them. Governments spend money taken by force.
As for your argument that government created America's success, all you have to do is make the same trip I did. Sit back. We were visiting a small town in Southwestern Texas, an area, as my Dad said, "so poor that the jackrabbits carried knapsacks." In this little town most of the streets were paved, the little homes well-kept, and there were a couple bars, a grocery store, a couple gas stations with late model cars at the pump, a well-stocked general store. We turned left and crossed a short, rickety and rusted old steel bridge and we were in Mexico. Here the streets were hardpack dirt, with dust everywhere. There were no doors or windows on the stucco houses, and a few chickens seemed to wander freely in and out. An old American car literally held together with baling wire lumbered and belched up the street. The only commerce seemed to be one little souvenir shop, and shabbily-dressed kids running up and down the street selling tortillas to the "turistas" like ourselves.
So what was the difference here? It couldn't be the people, because the Rio Grande is a bare trickle here, not keeping anybody out. The land was the same on both sides of the river-- dirt poor. The difference is that the United States enjoyed a long period of unbridled free-market capitalism that produced wildly successful people like the Vanderbilts, Diamond Jim Brady and others. In the process of their getting very rich, they built the railroads and factories and infrastructure on which future growth could occur, and then endowed the great charitable and educational institutions that we still have today. Only later did government step in to create the big-taxing welfare state and arrogate unto themselves the role private, voluntary charity should play.
There are many places where government has a necessary or useful role, like national defense, NBS, CDC or even the Education Dept (limited to research). Most things it does it either shouldn't do or should do much differently, and we shouldn't be paying for it. It certainly isn't making us more successful as a nation or as individuals.
J. Ewing
You are helping to make my point. I am sure there were people of equivalent capability and effort to the Vanderbilts, Diamond Jim Brady and others in Mexico.
However they failed to maximize their results or make a significant difference for the country, because they did not have the American Society's culture, government, beliefs, wealth distribution, laws, taxes, etc to support them. The stuff that makes us us...
As for the theft, do you willing of your own free will choose to live in this country and abide by the laws that were set by its elected leaders ??? If so, this can not be correct. "Governments spend money taken by force."
We choose to be part of this Society. The Society chooses its representative Leadership. (ie Government) The Government tries to pass laws for the good of Society and Individuals. We individuals are therefore acting of our free will.
Now if this was North Korea where the people have little say in its Society's norms/laws or Government, I would whole heartedly agree with you.
You are correct, that Mexico never had an environment of unbridled free-market capitalism, thus the difference. I don't see that as making your point, that it was government actively creating US success, but rather the opposite, that our limited government didn't crush our economic freedom, as Mexico's did with its oligarchy.
I did not choose to live here. My parents brought me into this country at my birth, and I have remained. If anyone wants to leave to find a more socialist utopia, THEY can go; I was here first. I'm not leaving the country, the country-- at least the government-- is leaving me. I am forced to pay excessive taxes because those who have risen to power do not consider my wishes for economic freedom worth consideration, and do not consider that US economic freedom is what makes us us, more than anything else.
When I was younger there was a political theory going around that the Soviet Union was becoming more capitalistic and the US was becoming more socialistic, so that eventually the two societies would "meet" somewhere in the middle and coexist peacefully. Asked how long I thought that might take, I said "about one more Democrat President." I was wrong, but not by much; here we are on the verge.
J. Ewing
"I did not choose to live here. My parents brought me into this country at my birth, and I have remained."
The relationship we have with the law, that is, the obligation we have to follow it, isn't contractual, it's based on a covenant. In religious terms, it's the deal Moses made with God on Mt. Sinai, regrettably without any lawyers present, and all the generations since have been required to abide by it, even though they didn't and were never asked, to consent to it.
If you don't like it, your only realistic option is to lump it.
You are correct, you did not choose to be born here. However you are certainly making a choice to stay here. Therefore freely choosing to live by the laws of the country you call home.
Society and the people are definitely changing in the USA. (ie heading towards 300 yrs) Probably in some good and bad ways... As they/we change, so does our government. It is selected by us in society, so we have no one to point at but ourselves.
A large percentage of people disagree with one or more aspects of our laws or policy. This is bound to happen with ~310,000,000 unique citizens. Imagine if you are a Pacifist, or a Socialist, or a KKK member, or a Pro Lifer, or other... They must live a very frustrated life in this great American melting pot...
An interesting link:
Wiki - USA 2010 Expenditures
There are definitely a lot of things being funded... And we are definitely overspending...
Looks like the war mongers are in the lead though. (At least on the discretionary spending side..., Defense & War on Terror) Unfortunately from what I had heard, I thought a lot of that was to pay bills for past soldiers and past wars. (ie not so discretionary)
I wonder what the Peace Loving Pacifist citizen's feel when they see their tax dollars being spent repeatedly like this...
My point is at this point in time, this budget must represent our cumulative current and past priorities... Since we voted in the folks that voted to spend the money... So we pay for the Good, Bad and Ugly... It is our freely chosen duty.
Hopefully "we" learn from our past and vote in some folks that are willing to cut across the board. The ever growing National Debt is what worries me most. Here is an interesting graph. Zfacts
The start of this piece was "entitlement or gratitude" and it followed the thought of "what do we owe government?" There are two answers. One is the simplistic legal one, where it is obvious that we do not have a choice but to pay taxes or flee to some place with more economic freedom (the US dropped to ninth this year). That's a harsh choice that we should NOT have to make and, because of that, I cannot find any gratitude for the government that forces me to make it. [Interestingly enough, I hear that same argument from school boards, telling senior citizens who have spent a life in their homestead that they can "just move" if they don't want to pay higher school taxes. That's just cruel.]
The other definition of what we "owe" is that which we feel obligated to give, based on some moral or ethical sense of what government "deserves" or "needs." I can't give a specific answer to that question, because government has grown beyond our control, and spent beyond the limitations WE imposed on them in the Constitution. They even ignore the very practical restraint that says you cannot spend more than you have. Perhaps if I publish one of those items you sometimes see in the paper that "I will no longer be responsible for debts incurred by..." in this case, profligates in DC. Spending decisions made by government are rarely the best decisions. We shouldn't be grateful when they do stupid stuff and claim our consent to it when none was asked nor given.
J. Ewing
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