Of course I disagree with both of these beliefs:
- I think that the vast majority of people like and respect most teachers. I certainly do. The challenge they face is huge and I think most do an admirable job.
- I think that Teacher's via their Union have brought Public frustration upon themselves. Their insistence on compensation and job security policies that reward seniority and degrees instead of performance and taking on more responsibility are very bad for the system, it's effectiveness and the students.
I have attached a few of the comments below. You will have to read all of them at MPP for the other part of the talk. In summary, Bill P and myself discuss who is in this evil Modern Reformers group that hates Teachers. I reminded him that apparently Obama is one of the ring leaders since he supports Race to the Top. And I suppose those evil politicians in Chicago are part of the movement since they wanted to add accountability to the contract. Thoughts?
"Root Cause: Teachers used to be respected in America. What do you think changed this? Remember one of my favorite sayings.. If a company has union problems, they probably deserve them... (ie poor behavior let union get in)" John (G2A)G2A EPS Teacher Penalty
"It is always awesome to know, that when I post about the neurotic hatred of teachers, or the irrational hatred of unions, I will almost immediately get a great local illustration of the reactionary and factless stance on working people. And make no mistake, it is both irrational and hatred.Kudos!" Alec"So I assume you believe it is a Conservative conspiracy like Eric. It has nothing to do with Unions demanding that Teachers be rewarded based on seniority and degrees instead of performance.
It is hard to look in the mirror. My favorite books on the topic are "Leadership and Self Deception" and "The Anatomy of Peace". Both by the Arbinger institute. "John (G2A)
G2A Teachers over Students
G2A Class Evaluation
G2A Perf & Comp (1, 2 & 3)
G2A Strikes: Free Speech or Extortion
28 comments:
I don't think the right hates teachers. They just seem them as part of the government, and they hate government.
==Hiram
So does Obama hate government and Teachers, since he supports education reform? Race to the Top
Just between you and me, the president knows nothing at all about education. He just buys into the conventional wisdom, which is always conventional but hardly ever wise.
You know, to the extent that anyone asks my opinion, and it's increasingly rare that anyone does, I always tell them give in to what passes for educational reform these days. Put together some sort of accountability scheme and what not. I think it can be done in ways that are helpful and not too damaging. But the notion that such schemes would actually improve our schools that they would help real teachers in real classrooms teach real students are better is absurd. Those are the kind of schemes people propose who are without ideas usually because they aren't without enough knowledge of the subject to generate any.
--Hiram
Well I appreciate your opinions, even when I disagree with you.
Did you even read the Race to the Top Factors before saying that you didn't think they would help?
I have. I don't see that any of them tell teachers how to teach better.
--Hiram
That is the nice things about Carrots (Race to the Top) and Sticks (NCLB / AYP), they are simply motivators to help folks understand the importance of continuous improvement and accepting change. Also, they indicate the dissatisfaction of their customers/employers with the current state.
These Carrots and Sticks don't tell the Educators what to do to improve themselves, they just strongly encourage that it be done.
More interesting links:
MN DOE 7 pt Plan
MN DOE Race for the Top
United Front MN RTTP Application
I am not sure what the relationship is between the MN DOE and United Front is, the MN DOE sent me to the UF site for the MN RTTP application.
MN NCLB Waiver Announcement
Fed NCLB Waiver Site
Fed MN Appd Waiver Request
You'll have to check out around pg 148... of the appd waiver plan.
Principle 3: Supporting Effective Instruction and Leadership.
Or 3A: Develop and Adopt Guidelines for Local Teacher and Principal Evaluation and Support Systems
Why anyone that says they believe a child's education is important would fight implementing these common sense systems that every company has in place is beyond me.
Pg 153 disturbs me though, it says the tenured teachers will be on a 3 yr cycle whereas non-tenured have 3 observations per yr... What employee is on a 3yr review cycle???
Well at least it looks like the Principals will be evaluated yearly (pg 157)
Pg 160 gives me hope...
Student and/or parent surveys for Teachers
Staff and Community surveys for Principals
As I note in this linked post, where other than K-12 do they not survey if the student (or parent) was satisfied with the class and instructor???
G2A Teacher Evaluation Forms
Again though, why would anyone who cares about the children resist these normal systems?
That is the nice things about Carrots (Race to the Top) and Sticks (NCLB / AYP), they are simply motivators to help folks understand the importance of continuous improvement and accepting change.
Actually, the nice thing about race to the top is that politicians can use it to tell the public that they are addressing the problems of our schools without really doing it.
--Hiram
I repeat my old axiom that "good people in a bad system produces bad results." Public schools run by teachers unions are a bad system. Teachers have a choice. They can be evaluated and compensated as individuals in a respected profession, or they can be protected from evaluation and compensated like all the other union stooges. If the union were to disappear or be replaced by a "professional association" that only focused on developing its members and better techniques for teaching, cost-effectiveness would likely double over the next 10 years. It would take a few years to convince the deadwood to seek another profession, and a few more years to see the best given the proper monetary recognition, and a few more after that to start to replace retiring and ineffective teachers with new, eager and more capable teachers from the Ed schools. Respect must be earned, individually and then collectively. It can't be demanded, in spite of results, for a whole collective.
Hiram,
Aren't you forgetting that you don't want non-educators fixing the problem... I am sure the Politicians would happily try to fix the problem. They all have opinions as to what is wrong.
Like I am pretty sure that your solution would be to increase Public Education funding and eliminate accountability... Which I don't think would do much for improving effectiveness, though it may improve the results marginally.
Jerry,
I was thinking of you this morning. Even with all of your anti-Public Education comments over the years, I have never got a sense that you hate teachers. That's why I think Alec has it all wrong.
Aren't you forgetting that you don't want non-educators fixing the problem?
I am happy when anyone fixes any problems. The question raised here is whether reformers hate teachers. My question is why do we think that the quality of teaching is the problem? Our schools, while incredibly imperfect, are getting better. We teach better than we used to. While I am sure the quality of teaching varies, I know of no reason to think that quality depends on whether the schools are unionized or not. There are lots of great union teachers, and lots of lousy non-union teachers.
==Hiram
I am all for accountability by the way as a pedagogical tool. But it has it's limits. It's sort of like saying that looking at the thermometer changes the weather. It just doesn't do that. But it does help you decide whether to wear a coat.
--Hiram
"lots of lousy non-Union Teachers"
Where do you get this stuff? Who exactly do you think would continue to employee a Lousy Non-Union Teacher?
Some Private school that doesn't care if their clients / students don't come back...
But now if you could control the weather to some extent, wouldn't that thermometer be invaluable.
Though I agree the Education system has little control over the quality of incoming students and their parents, they certainly have nearly absolute control over the system and personnel to which the students are taught in.
What data do you have to know they are getting better or at what rate?
They likely are thanks to all the reform and measurement they are resisting. However if one wasn't measuring, how would we know?
Actually, NCLB was a pretty good solution gone astray. The premise was that we test actual student learning, including the "gap," and then REQUIRE that students in failing schools be given another option at school district expense. The minute a school got labelled as "failing," however, the union howled about "destroying public education" and, to my knowledge, only Florida actually followed through. Student achievement there has soared and the gap greatly reduced.
Who exactly do you think would continue to employee a Lousy Non-Union Teacher?
Non-union schools. It's not as if they were any better than union schools. Bear in mind also that many private schools are unionized.
As for getting better, check the NAEP scores.
--Hiram
I agree with Alec that the teacher's union is unfairly blamed for the underachievement of so many students. I work in a nonunion charter school and we have very bad test scores, worse than Mpls public. We have opportunities for teachers to earn more money by taking on leadership roles. This makes little difference in raising test scores of our students that are 95% low income and 95% ELL (English language learners)
Blaming teachers and their union just distracts from real improvements that need to be made such as an extended school day and year. This will cost more money. As a strib opinion piece pointed out today the number of at risk students is up and funding has been flat at best. Even so test scores are up so teachers should be thanked/rewarded not blamed.
I guess I have always said ~85 % of the problem is outside the Education system. And that ~85% is near impossible to fix. (really hard to help those that don't want to be helped)
G2A Blame vs Contributions
However the 15% still exists and is much easier to address. Ignoring it is putting the wants of poor Administrators and Poor Teachers before the needs of unlucky students.
G2A Pay Grades, Tenure and Stress
G2A Steps and Lanes
G2A Teacher Compensation
G2A Poor Kids: Stupid or Unlucky
Are Teachers/Union unwilling to accept any of the contribution for poor performing schools? Not even 5%...
Remember, if they could run things just 5% more effectively. They could hire 5% more staff.
Unions are about high pay and better working conditions for working people. And the principal problem our economy is having is that working people aren't paid enough. those concerned with efficiency have to work around those issues. There is no reason at all to think that an efficient school, as arbitrarily defined by someone, is a good school.
It's always interesting when we choose to think about efficiency and when we do not. When we were thinking about building a Vikings Stadium, no one seemed concerned about how massively inefficient it was since we had build a perfectly good, largely unused football stadium for the Gophers just a few years earlier, or that with a few modifications the Vikings could very efficiently play at the new Twins Stadium.
--Hiram
That's why I use the word effective, not efficient.
And remember, I was against the new stadium. It just seemed like a DFL gov't jobs program to me.
Kind of like light rail and bike paths. Not too effective and very expensive.
I don't think employing more people is necessarily either efficient or effective.
==Hiram
J and you agree on something again... He also thinks bigger class sizes are acceptable.
Most parents, teachers and myself think that education and Teachers are more effective when there are fewer kids in the classroom. (Ie 25 instead of 35...) Especially in the K thru 8th grades.
And if you we could afford more Teachers we could have more classes. Or we could keep the class size the same and have more small group work for those that need it.
Sorry, John, but there are simply no studies showing that class size matters significantly above the second grade. Also, the most cost-effective kindergarten class size seems to be somewhere between 18-22 students, and increasing from there. It is NOT, as I have found by simple math in my own district (total students/total teachers), under 18 for every class! It's called the "class size myth" and it means we spend too much to have too many unionized teachers.
Think about it. What can a teacher do differently in a class of 22 that she cannot do in a class of 24? Would a "better" (i.e. more effective) teacher be one that could teach 26 as well as others could teach 20, and shouldn't she be paid more? Once you get past one to one, your instructional methodology has to change, and once it changes it stays the same, up until you start the massive lecture halls that you see on college campi. And THOSE work, too, unless you are willing to say that no professor is an effective teacher! If a middle school teacher has a class size of 25, seven periods per day, how much additional time could she spend with each one if she only had 24? I defy you to tell me that six additional seconds matters.
The teachers I know dream of getting back to 24 or 25 kids in their classroom.
Usually they are hard pressed to fit enough desks in the rooms that were designed for ~28 students max...
Well, I've always contended that the upper limit on class size is a physical one, rather than one based on how many kids a good teacher could teach. Since we've been living the class size myth for so long, many of the classrooms now existing are too small to go to a cost-effective size.
I understand your teacher friends' desire for smaller classes, but it doesn't have to do with how many they can effectively teach. It's how many they can effectively control. A prerequisite for increasing class size is a much better discipline policy.
So tell us about this better discipline dream of yours...
Remember that this public school has to accept and try to teach every child that shows up at their door. And they can not send them away.
From students with terrible Parents to students with EBD, ADHD, Autism, Aspergers, etc, etc, etc.
The reality is that as the class size and the poverty level increase, there will be more and more of these kids in the classroom causing distractions.
You are correct. The law says parents must school their kids, and it says the State must "provide" that education. It also says the education must be "uniform," which I take to mean that every kid has an equal chance to get it. The kid can't get it if the teachers don't provide it or if another kid is disruptive, and I think that's the opportunity.
An effective discipline policy starts with everyone having high expectations. Teachers of kids and parents, kids and parents and administrators of teachers, kids and parents and teachers of themselves. That does wonders. Add an administration that backs up teachers' claims of disruption, calls parents to account and who have the option to demand the kid move to another school (with bars on the windows) or be suspended--i.e. home-schooled at parent expense, and you add the teeth necessary if the high expectations alone fail.
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