Friday, May 17, 2013

How Many Shower Rooms?

Sorry Laurie, I need to address this before we move on.  And J, for the duration of this post please just assume there is a "gay" gene. (ie genetic cause for some to be strongly sexually attracted to only others of the same sex)

That said...  Laurie, would you be comfortable sharing a shower room with a man who would be sexually attracted by seeing you scantily clad or naked?  Would you be comfortable sharing a shower room with a woman who would be sexually attracted by seeing you scantily clad or naked?  And no I am not implying that anyone is going to act on their desires, but naturally they will have them...

Is the answer the same or different?  Why?

I can easily make a case for anywhere between 1 & 4 shower rooms...
  1. Sexual attraction and physical differences don't matter.  Let's all get naked... (ie look up videos for Starship Trooper Shower scenes)
  2. Only physical differences matter.  It doesn't matter if that other woman is attracted and somewhat turned on as you wash your body parts.  Let them have their little thrill.
  3. Attraction/Intent is what matters because parts is parts... Therefore we need shower rooms for men, women, and the gay women/men can share.  I mean they have no interest in each others parts anyway.
  4. We need 4 shower rooms because we can't be mixing parts or attractions...
I wonder when the colleges, fitness centers, pools, etc, etc, etc will start their remodels and what they will decide?  Maybe the group shower/locker rooms will have to be eliminated...  It is an interesting and practical question that has been eating at me for a couple days.

32 comments:

Anonymous said...

We may quickly find out, as California is about to pass legislation requiring that schools permit students to use "the facilities" of any gender they choose. Supposedly this is to defend the poor kiddies with "gender confusion," but what do you want to bet that some testosterone-deranged teenage boy will decide he "feels like a girl today" and wander into the girls' shower?

BTW, I asked the same question about "don't ask, don't tell."

J. Ewing

John said...

You mean hormone laden straight teenage boys may fib to get a look or cop a feel??? I can't believe that... (hahaha) I can't believe my daughters would feel very comfortable with boys in their locker room after gym... Even gay boys.

Though it would likely be a memorable anatomy lesson.

John said...

Maybe this is what the future holds. Scene shows coed marines from the waist up showering while having light banter. And yes you will have to mark that you are 18 before you can see it. So if you are sensitive to this type of thing do not hit the link...

Starship Troopers Shower Scene

Anonymous said...

Notice that Heinlein did not portray any gays in that shower? Even the recreational sex, later in the movie, was "conventional."

J.

John said...

Technically we don't know if there were an gay folk, since most of the movie treats the relationships between soldiers as platonic. Other than of course the one love triangle plot line.

Anonymous said...

Technically you are correct, but Heinlein was a creature of his time, so in his FICTIONAL future, the mores of the society reduced the required number of showers from TWO to one, NOT from four to one.

J.

Laurie said...

I think this topic is slightly homophobic but I will play along. I don't have a problem with a lesbian woman sharing the locker room with me or a gay man sharing the locker room with my husband or children.

It does get a bit more tricky if we want to consider the needs of a transgender person. I think the optimal solution is a private facility (shower or restroom) for family or transgender person use.

John said...

So are you then ok with coed shower rooms?

How is having a woman who is sexually interested in women showering with you different than having a man who is sexually interested in women showering with you?

It seems inconsistent...

John said...

Now that I am back at a computer, here are a couple more thoughts.
Wiki Homophobia
Wiki Gynophobia
Wiki Androphobia

Does a woman who does not want to shower in front of a man suffering from androphobia?

Does a man who does not want to shower in front of a woman suffering from gynophobia?

Or is it just normal that people don't feel comfortable being naked in front of others that may be sexually attracted to them? I wonder which would be worse, if they did find one attractive or if they don't?

Or again do pro-gay folks like to create those monsters by throwing around terms like homophobic, as I mentioned previously in the other post. Personally I think it is interesting, and I don't think I would be too comfortable showering in front of women or gay men... Maybe I am odd...

Laurie said...

I think it is highly likely that you have shared the locker room with gay men and have been unscathed by the experience.

It's kind of funny how you project views onto me then claim that I am inconsistent. If our culture undergoes some large shift in which it becomes the new norm for men and women share a locker room I think I would be able to adapt.

So how do you feel about taking your daughters to the beach where all those lecherous heterosexual men can ogle them in their bikinis?

John said...

I accept it as part of our society, amd they have those few important bits covered. Unlike when they are taking a shower.

Which views did I project on to you?

Laurie said...

what I interpreted as projection is an assumption that I would be uncomfortable sharing a locker room with men followed by the conclusion that this makes me inconsistent. I guess I should be used to your unusual logic or way of looking at things by now.

on a different note I find it amusing when interesting links turn up related to almost any phrase. For instance a search of "sharing the locker room with gay people" turned up this: Are Gay Guys Checking You Out in the Locker Room?

lastly I don't intend to insult or offend I just like trying to get a rise out of you, a past time you seem to enjoy yourself.

John said...

Thanks, and no I was not insulted or offended. I was just curious and wanted to make sure I had not gone too far afield.

You had passed on answering 2/3rds of my questions, so I made an assumption you were avoiding them with reason. And still you have not answered the "why/rationale" question. see below.

"Laurie, would you be comfortable sharing a shower room with a man who would be sexually attracted by seeing you scantily clad or naked? Would you be comfortable sharing a shower room with a woman who would be sexually attracted by seeing you scantily clad or naked? And no I am not implying that anyone is going to act on their desires, but naturally they will have them... Is the answer the same or different? Why?"

As for the link, why is it that gay rights supporters are so concerned about the comfort/feelings of homosexuals and women, and care so little about the comfort/feelings of straight people, especially men?

The article pretty much says that homosexuals and women are "safe" to shower with, but those straight men are not. Now who is stereotyping and practicing fear mongering?

By the way, I don't disagree with the concept, but find it an interesting double standard. Especially this "fear" of straight men. I mean read this monster creating statement.

"The only difference now is that, at least in the military or on sports teams with openly gay members, you know who’s gay. You’d think that homo-haters would prefer to know where the threat is coming from, but the point is that same-sex harassment in locker rooms should be no more a problem with openly gay athletes than it was before."

"Homo-haters", where did that come from? And of course it is worse knowing... Imagine you spent years happily and naively showering in front of a mirror. And then one day you found out that there were people of the opposite sex who could see you through that mirror. Would you be just as comfortable going into that shower? Really?

Anonymous said...

On further reflection, I don't think that you can make a case for a number of shower rooms beyond two, unless everybody is going into an individual shower stall, and I'm not too sure about that being acceptable. I don't think our current society would tolerate nude coed bathing, except at nudist colonies or nude beaches, and as far as I know that is a pretty limited offering and a pretty limited clientele – not all of them pretty. In other words, we now offer two based on the premise that men and women are different. That used to be a pretty reasonable assumption.

The premise is that people do not want to appear naked before people who will be sexually aroused by seeing them such, so again, we separate people based on gender. But when you throw homosexuals into the mix, you can't just have three shower rooms, because there would be times when there would be multiple lesbians or multiple gay men in the shower at the same time, and you have the potential for sexual arousal. Similarly, four shower rooms don't help you, either for the same exact reason. And going to individual shower stalls doesn't help a lot, IMHO. Have you ever noticed how many movies include a shower scene where the woman is behind that frosted glass? Why do you think they include that scene that way?

J. Ewing


John said...

"potential for sexual arousal."

At first you had me confused... Now I get it, the gay men for the gay men, and the lesbians for the lesbians. That is a complicating factor I had not thought of.

Well with that in mind, I am guessing we'll stay with 2 shower rooms. Or go to 2 shower rooms and multiple "family / private" shower rooms for those that want privacy.

Whatever happens, based on Lauries's post it seems it will be to ensure the homosexuals are comfortable. Since the comfort level of straight folks seems to not be important.

I guess this gives me a reason to get into better shape. I'd hate to be that "out of shape guy" that the gay guy thinks is too unattractive to sneak a peak at. I mean one must look good if they are to be reviewed... (hahahaha)

John said...

"In addition to posing a logistical nightmare, the group predicted that creating separate facilities for gays and straights would stigmatize gay service-members and that concerns about integrated showers were based on stereotypes about gay people as predators."

This quote was what I found interesting, it empathizes with the feelings of the gay service members, and belittles the feelings of the straight service members. Very interesting.

Laurie said...

so what are your thoughts on this from the last paragraph:

"... it is not straight guys who are bullied, become the victim of hate crimes, or have discriminatory laws passed against them. The most ridiculous thing about the gay-shower scare tactic is that it paints straight guys as helpless sheep when in fact—in the locker room and in life—they have most of the power."

it seems to me that women and gay people have the most to fear in the armed forces (sexual harassment and assault) and it is only reasonable to be concerned for their safety.

Lastly, out of curiosity, I asked my husband if he had any problem sharing the locker room with gay men (he's in his 50's raised in small town WI) he said no and thought it was a dumb question. I find this another curious difference between liberals and conservatives. Its funny how there are completely different cultures like music, recreational hobbies etc.

John said...

My point again is that it is apparently ok to stereotype straight males as power hungry abusive predators. While stereotyping women and gay males as hapless helpless victims of that aggression.

Being one of those supposedly "power hungry agressive straight males", it seems kind of biased.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps we should take a cue from conservative Muslims. Women must be covered head to toe in public (the "chador") for fear that men will become aroused at the sight of a lip or elbow. Homosexuals are put to death. Problem solved?

Ever hear the old song, "In olden days a glimpse of stocking
Was looked on as something shocking,
But now, God knows,
Anything Goes." Cultural norms change. We may get to the one-shower plan in the future. Why rush it?

I again have to reiterate, that there is a vast difference between sharing a shower with a homosexual of the same sex and KNOWING that you are doing so. The problem isn't that anyone is going to act on their urges, but that one's "modesty taboo" comes into play with the knowledge. Even if the gay man, for example, has no interest in the other men (as they all want to claim, for some reason), it is their simple (and known) presence that creates the problem.

Let me try another angle here. Suppose, instead of a gay man, our actor is a pedophile. Should they be showering with the kids, and should the kids or parents object?

J. Ewing

John said...

To refine your situation further. The actor will take no agressive actions, he has sexual attraction to young people but physically controls himself. Just like most humans do, whether they are straight, gay, or other.

I think that this refinement is necessary, otherwise folks will think the worst of your scenario.

jerrye92002 said...

I thought this was assumed? After all, that is the assumption we are asked to make for gay folks.

And I can't imagine how anyone could "think worse" about this scenario than I presume they already do. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

J.

John said...

I agree that it should be, however according to all the links and comments I have been reading lately... It seems that many see women, gays and lesbians as pure of intent and action. It seems they think is is just us other men that think and do naughty stuff.

Which is ironic given the number of women in high profile criminal cases lately.

Laurie said...

It seems what I mostly see in the news is looking for bodies of women who have been murdered by their husbands or boyfriends. Oh, and sexual assaults in the military

John said...

Maybe that is because you have been conditioned to look for it?

Now I am not saying that us testerone filled men are not slightly more prone to violent acts than women and gay men. The point however is that there are plenty of women and gay men out there who do bad things, yet the folks like yourself seem to want to deny that.

Laurie said...

a prison population that is 93% men is not a slight difference

jerrye92002 said...

Laurie is right. Aggression is essentially a male trait, with violence its natural expression. However, as I complain about would be TV censors, "sex and violence" should never be used as one word to condemn TV programming. They have nothing to do with one another, and some day I will have to explain sex to my kids (or vice versa :( ) but I can't explain violence rationally.

The problem here isn't violence, it's sexual conduct, sometimes called "leering." If somebody peeks into your window to see you naked, it's a crime. The same should be true if someone walks into a shower for that purpose. The only question is, how do you know that is what they are doing? Easy: If a male walks into a female shower room, they can be presumed guilty, whether gay or straight, because the infraction is obvious. If an unrelated adult showers with children, they should be presumed guilty, again because the infraction is obvious. If an /admitted/ homosexual walks into any non-private shower room, they should be presumed guilty because, again, the infraction has become obvious. Don't ask, don't tell solves the problem, and lets us use the shower facilities we already have.

J. Ewing

John said...

Good point. I wandered off topic, though the point is the same... There are "pure", "not so pure" and "down right disturbed" people in all of the groups. To single out the straight men as bad, while saying that women and gay men are good is pretty impressive stereotyping. Then having the nerve to apply negative terms to the straight men and villify them on top of it sure takes some nerve.

Laurie said...

I really can't believe your whining about straight men being some sort of victims. I rate this as a new all time low in dumb insensitive comments. Maybe you should worry more about your daughters.

Hate crimes against gay, transgender people rise, report says

Violence Against Women in the United States: Statistics

I have reached my aggravation limit and am done with this topic.

Laurie said...

oops, I have one more link related to a petition that showed up in my email.

Mark Carson Was One of 5 Anti-Gay Attacks in Manhattan This Month Alone

Are you still feeling sorry for yourself?

John said...

Thank you for proving my point... No empathy at all for us straight guys...

John said...

This isn't about feeling sorry for myself, its about discussing some very biased perspectives.

Women and gays say they are concerned, you and your peers start crying and blaming the straight guys.

Straight guys say they are concerned, you and your peers start ranting and calling them irrational homophobes... Or what was that other name? Oh yeah homo-haters...

It is an interesting case study in group think.

jerrye92002 said...

Silly question. While I agree that nobody should be targeted for violence for ANY reason (and we do have laws against that, you know), I thought tolerance was supposed to be a two-way street? Straight men have tolerated gay men in the showers for as long as there have been showers, so long as it wasn't KNOWN. Now, somehow, gays believe they have the right to proudly proclaim themselves, giving offense to those who have a different view, and then DEMAND that others not only not express that view, but not hold that different view at all. Where's the tolerance?

J. Ewing