CNN Gunman Kills 12
FOX News Dad Kills Daughters
Now I am usually a fan of law, order and due process. And at times I may even seem a bit Liberal. However let's be clear that in the 2 cases above, I would support these 2 animals being immediately removed from society and put to a slow painful death. No press conferences, no public trials, no book deals, etc.
And yes I understand that they were "not of right mind". However I am not sure that should matter when they have violated our social norms so openly, violently and extremely.
Another ironic point is that our society's worst criminals seem to know the right of this, though us proper people seem to balk at it. Neither will live long in prison without extra security in place. Even those hardened criminals understand that if you kill children, you have gone too far.
Thoughts?
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16 comments:
I've long been in favor of the "smoking gun" rule. If cops witness somebody standing in a pile of bodies with a smoking gun, they should save the justice system from making a costly mistake and hand out justice right there. I'm not sure we pay them enough for that emotional trauma (that the perpetrators do NOT have), but it should be legal and proper, at least. The old "mad dog" theory, I guess.
On the other hand, there is such a thing as "suicide by cop" and I would not want to grant them such a favor. I would want to make sure that those piling up a body count be stopped ASAP (preferably by someone with a CCW permit), but those trying to kill themselves receive a life sentence to contemplate their failure.
J. Ewing
When a tragedy like this occurs it reminds me of how accepting of violence we have become in America. My quick research turned up this fact:
In 2010 - the latest year for which detailed statistics are available - there were 12,996 murders in the US. Of those, 8,775 were caused by firearms.
That averages to 35 people day, each one with grieving family members who are rarely shown on the news.
While we all identify more with these innocent, random victims in the theater, it seems to me we, as a society, might care more about these other 13,000 murder victims and try to do more to decrease this number.
One of the reasons our life expectancy in this country is low compared with other countries is because it is often our young people-- men, especially-- who are the victims of this violence. It has absolutely nothing to do with our health care system, as many contend.
Perhaps the reason we become "accepting" is because of the rare outrageous case such as this, driving more "ordinary" murders off the front page. Our violent entertainment, I think, also has something to do with it. An average American child will see 200000 violent acts and 16000 murders on TV by age 18, according to this study: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.med.umich.edu%2Fyourchild%2Ftopics%2Ftv.htm&ei=d9AKUN_wDIrPqgHJ2fzQCg&usg=AFQjCNEjN1gzfTra6JUHfNrT6JLMiwJ43Q
J. Ewing
J-
I agree with you that our violent entertainment could be a factor. I found this description of the "Dark Knight Rises":
"Like its predecessors, The Dark Knight Rises features ultra-violent scenes of torture and death that are too intense for younger kids used to the nearly comic, stylized action violence of other superhero films. A disturbingly high body count is achieved via massive explosions, kidnappings, neck breakings, shootings, and hand-to-hand combat. While there's not a lot of actual blood, there's tons of death and mass destruction. Bruce Wayne enjoys a few passionate kisses and one love scene that shows bare shoulders; swearing is very infrequent (the strongest words used are "bitch" and "damn")"
If a character had said "fuck" in the movie it would be rated R, because this offensive word is considered more damaging to children than all the violence depicted.
I expect my 15 year old son will see the movie and if it was rated R I would probably buy his ticket, but I think an R rating might dissuade some parents from taking their 8 or 10 year old kids to this violent movie.
btw, as I am not a fan of violent movies I will not be going to it.
I haven't seen a movie, except on TV, in about 20 years. I had HBO for a while years ago, and I always went through the book they sent every month and crossed off anything I didn't want the kids to watch. They were very good about "obeying" it. But when I realized that the number of things they were allowed to watch added up to about two a month, and considering that I didn't care to watch anything they shouldn't watch, I cancelled the service.
I think you are right, too, about the curious nature of our rating system. I explain it this way: Some day I am going to have to explain sex to my son; it is a natural part of life. But how do I explain violence to him? I cannot; it is not supposed to be part of life. Yet the films consider sexual language and behavior as R or NC-17 material, while a lot of violence slides in with a PG.
J.
Violence is not supposed to be part of life?
I have 12,000 yrs of history that refute that...
I am sure that Black Knight 3 is over the top in violence, yet is ultimately a story of good vs evil and how they not always very black and white. Just llike BK 1/2 and Syria, Egypt, Libya, etc.
I'll update you after I see it.
So, John, your brief comment indicates that you are one of the seeming majority of Americans who is okay with the level of violence in our society and see no need for steps to try to reduce it, even though it is 4-5 times greater than most of the rest of the developed countries
Maybe a few more statistics will raise your level of concern.
Laurie,
What would you do with these 2 guys? Reform them? Pay for their cell for 50 yrs?
I'll read your links when I am at a computer.
re what would I do- I would sentence these 2 murderers to life in prison without parole. If one of them would prefer to be put to death I would oblige that request.
At a conservative $25,000/yr, 3% inflation and 50 yrs of life, your preference will cost us ~$5,479,882 for the younger man alone... I think that money could be spent in a much better way to help people that really need it.
By the way, I read the links. Still not feeling the concern. 5 in 100,000 seems pretty small odds given our incredible personal freedom. Also, I think they should normalize for some other important factors, including country's diversity, immigration policy, political freedoms, etc.
I like the "smoking gun" concept though. To prevent damage to sane caring humans, maybe our executioners could be fellow prisoners that have been diagnosed as sociopaths. They won't mind at all, in fact they likely would enjoy the work.
I do find it frustrating though that you are looking for excuses for these sorry examples of humanity... All I hear is: "It was the fault of the violent movies, gun availability, violent culture, etc, etc, etc." Since the vast majority of us choose not to shoot up a movie theater or stab our children, I have to disagree. These 2 men made very bad choices and should be punished quickly, efficiently and finally.
Hmmm... perhaps it is time to repeat the wisdom of old Judge Parker of the Texas Rangers, who said, "It isn't the severity [of punishment] that deters, it is the certainty of it." We would still have the occasional "suicide by cop" but I am OK with that, so long as we have counseling for our officers available when they regret taking a life.
If it were just me I would do two things as government policy. First, I would alter the rating system for movies, TV, and video games to make violence at least as big a factor in the ratings as for sexual content, and I would toughen the ratings overall so that gratuitous language or violence got your rating dropped a lot faster. Remember the great old movies where you knew somebody got shot, or that a couple had sex, but you didn't get to see a bit of it? Why not today? The movies would be better without it.
The second thing I would do is to make any business liable for the death or injury of its patrons if it posts a "no guns" sign at the door. I am always saddened at this piece of liberal foolishness, because I think it costs lives. Liberals believe, however, that there hasn't been a single convenience store or liquor store armed robbery since the signs went up.
J. Ewing
John,
Perhaps you would be more concerned if the children getting shot and killed as they slept or played at home lived in your neighborhood. My main point on this topic is more attention and concern should be given to the 35 people (on average) who are killed each day. Are these other lives any less valuable than those of the victims in Colorado?
btw, my comments have no excuses. I took the rare opportunity to agree with J about something - that our entertainment is very violent and rated very stupidly.
I see little point in explaining my opposition to the death penalty as no minds will be changed on this. My main reason is philisophical / religious. My church tolls its bell every time someone is executed.
Prochoice and Anti Capital Punishment. That is an interesting combination.
I saw the Dark Knight and it was very good. Staying with the Batman philosophy: good, evil, passion, hope, struggle, etc were all mixed up and left to be evaluated and determined by each movie goer.
Even the lead villains had a vision for a better world. A bit twisted, yet they truly thought they were doing a good thing.
A relevant a story about our foolishness. MSN Penalty Delayed
He kills his 18 yr girl friend, he kills another inmate and we are arguing about how to execute him and whether he is smart enough to be held accountable? Very confusing.
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