Friday, August 9, 2013

To Shutdown or Not to Shutdown...

"It occurred to me while on a long bike ride that score keeping on ideologically opposite blogs could be fun.

Powerline Most People Hate ObamaCare 
I rate the objective main idea (OMI) from the powerline Obamacare post - that house republicans should withhold funding from Obamacare - as dumb.

Agree or disagree?" Laurie
Since Laurie posted the above and CNN ran this article, it seemed I should bring it to the top...   CNN GOP To Shutdown Gov't?

FOX News Defund Drive Divides GOP
Daily Kos Distract GOP From Defund

Thoughts?



13 comments:

jerrye92002 said...

Here we go AGAIN! Republicans propose something eminently common sense, like defunding that disastrous ACA or reducing our disastrous deficit, and Democrats go caterwauling to their Pravda press buddies to claim that the real aim is to "shut down the government," and painting that as significantly worse than the onrushing catastrophe of Global Warming.

And of course there is the law of political science which says that whatever evil Democrats accuse Republicans of wanting, the Democrats are already doing. It isn't the GOP that will shut government down to defund O'care, it is Democrats who will shut government down to defend it. Why is that not the story?

Paul Ryan has said there are better ways to stop Obamacare without shutting down the government. I wish he would trot it out and let us see it. It needs to happen. It's OK, Repubs. Don't fall for that old trick of "let Americans see how really bad it is before the election." NO. Get rid of the darn thing and let Democrats go to the election promising to re-impose it.

Laurie said...

It seems to me if America hated Obamacare the time to get rid of it was with the 2012 election. What happened in 2012 is Obama won with a large margin, dems retained the majority in the senate, and in house races dems got more votes than the republicans. I don't see why 240 republicans in the house should get their way over what the senate wants and what Obama wants.

jerrye92002 said...

Well, that is the mystery, isn't it? Your question is just more of the mystery. Repubs SHOULD "get their way" because O'care is an unmitigated disaster-- it was from the get-go-- that will not fulfill any of the promises made for it. It's a terrible law and should never have passed in the first place. Now that the majority of "the people" have found out what's in it, Repubs ought to represent them, regardless of what Harry and Barack want.

Laurie said...

about opinions regarding Obamacare:

33 percent of the public say they have an unfavorable view of the law because it goes too far

35% have a favorable opinion of it and another 8% think the law does not do enough.

Kaiser Health Tracking Poll: June 2013

I thought the purpose of elections was to choose representatives to implement policies that have the most support. In the last election the public preferred dem candidates and proposals.

jerrye92002 said...

I see. Apparently it's my problem. I don't see how any rational electorate could elect people who promise things they can't possibly deliver and try to pay for it on our kids' charge cards. The only conclusion I've come up with is that the electorate is either irrational (which I do not believe), uninformed about reality (a distinct possibility), or completely MISinformed about public policy and candidates. I believe Obama won last time by lying through his teeth about Romney and all Republicans, and enough people bought the Big Lie that he won.

Now it's happening again. Notice that the Democrats are not proposing to solve the many problems of Obamacare that even they are beginning to quietly admit, or the overwhelming problem of reducing federal spending that is TFOC (Totally Out of Control). All they are doing is talking about what terrible, evil things the Republicans are plotting-- like trying to balance the budget or let you make your own health care decisions.

John said...

Personally, I am not sure if "withholding funding" from an officially legally passed program seems like a good precedent to be pursuing. Does this mean that Congress should block funding for wars that the Executive branch starts? Or should a future Congress starve another program that was deemed acceptable just a few years earlier. (ie maybe farm crop insurance)

By the way, how does Congress "defund" anything without killing it? I thought we decided that budgets were just something the "should" be done. Not that they actually have any real power. And that the actual laws are what cause the spend...

Or does our nearing the debt cap, give Congress some additional levers? If so, then the Democrats could take away a lot of the GOPs power by just spending less so they don't have to keep begging for a higher credit card limit...

Laurie said...

A government shutdown won’t stop Obamacare

I think it is fairly likely that the govt will shut down in Sept or Oct and the GOP will get the blame.

jerrye92002 said...

The Constitution (an outdated concept, according to some) left the "power of the purse" in the hands of Congress and Congress alone. I don't see why they shouldn't use it, especially when past acts of Congress are so incredibly costly and stupid.

You are correct that budgets don't mean anything, but this debate isn't about a budget. The government only shuts down if Congress fails to pass a spending bill (or continuing resolution), and the "plan" here, as pushed by some, is to pass a CR EXCEPT for all Obamacare spending. So there would be no shutdown at all unless Democrats want to shut all the rest of government down to preserve that "train wreck" of Obamacare.

jerrye92002 said...

Laurie, that is a rather strange bit of conjecture. The notion is that Obamacare will continue during a shutdown, like just about every other government program, and that is correct. But if Democrats get the blame for the shutdown, and solely because they are defending Obamacare, then they will quickly end the shutdown and Obamacare will be effectively defunded. You are correct, of course, that Republicans are most likely to get the blame, despite the very clear truth to the contrary. For this reason I do not expect there to be a shutdown because I expect Republicans to "cave" once again, rather than to stand up for what is right and sensible. The Democrats will once again enjoy a victory of politics over policy, which, as my Daddy used to say, is a heck of a [poor] way to run a railroad.

John said...

I just wish people actually had to write out a monthly check for their tax bill. I am pretty sure most people don't even know what Government and all of it's programs are actually costing them.

Imagine if the guy making $50,000 per year actually had to write a check for $1,400/mth and watch his balance go down... I am guessing he wouldn't be blaming the GOP for holding the purse strings tight. I am guessing he would soon be demanding significant cuts. I am thinking he could buy a really nice corvette, fishing boat, college education, etc.

Or he may even choose to save and invest it. Of course then he would have to adjust to even more taxes.

Laurie said...

So I guess by your spending related complaint, John, that you are in favor of a govt shutdown.

Also, I highly doubt I am paying $1400 a month in taxes. A large part of whatever I pay is for SS and medicare and I have no objection to that.

John said...

If your husband works and you file jointly, I will arbitrarily call you the second / marginal income.

That means depending on his income, all of your income should be taxed at Fed:15+% State:7+% Payroll: ~7.5% + all your sales, property and other local taxes. Plus your company could pay you an additional ~7.5% if they did not have to fund payroll taxes.

I come up with approximately 40% of your income is going to the gov't, that would be ~$1667/mth on a $50,000/yr salary.

Now just imagine the pittance my self employed wife gets to keep after the taxes and her having to pay the whole payroll tax. And my income putting her at a higher starting rate.

Please remember that payroll taxes have been ruled a tax, they give you no legal assurance that you will get the money back. Social Security and Medicare are more like Welfare than an actual savings and insurance account. A future President and Congress can legally change the rules of the game at anytime. Interesting thought...

Personally I don't care if the government does or does not shut down for awhile. The annoyance is that if it does, all those employees don't historically lose any income. Their paycheck is just delayed. At least when companies shutdown, some costs are reduced.

John said...

I guess this is why tax free day is on April 23rd in MN. 4/12ths or 33.3% is a little lower than my number because it is an average, not a marginal comparison...

Tax Free Day Details