Friday, October 4, 2013

Capitol Police and Unions

So my friend Dog is attacking the GOP and defending Unions. MPP Short Shot  And there is nothing terribly wrong or surprising about this. The GOP is half the reason that government is shutdown, which is apparently disrupting the distribution of paychecks.  Of course I am not sure how many "essential personnel" paychecks were scheduled to go out within ~4 days of the start of the shutdown.  Though it does seem to make a good though illogical sound bite for the Liberal rock throwers.

As for the Unions, here is Dog's perspective.  "The reality is that there is no significant difference between the public sector and the private sector, for employment, there is no valid factual basis for asserting that public sector employees are ‘bloated tics on our backs’."

Now I guess I never have thought of them as "bloated tics".  However I guess I would disagree that there is no significant difference between the Public and Private sector...  Here is an interesting quote from the following article.

"According to the U.S. Capitol Police recruitment page, a starting salary for an officer is $55,653, which comes with 13 days of annual leave, an additional 13 days of sick leave and 10 paid holidays.
Daily News US Capitol Shooting

Now I am not sure how many personal leave and sick days you got upon starting in your Private sector jobs, however this looks a bit atypical to me. And pretty darn good...

Besides if there is no difference, why would Unions be growing in the Public sector and declining in the Private sector?

Finally, why are the Liberals so dedicated to protecting the Public employees and their affiliated unions?  I mean according to Dog there is "no significant difference between the public sector and the private sector".

Thoughts?

Ps. Hi Dog, If you want to play, it will have to be here.  Your Daddy said I was not allowed to play at your house any more.  I hope you decide to join us, however remember the G2A Rules.  They are posted on the right side of the page.

47 comments:

Laurie said...

Sometimes I think I need to give you lessons in reading comprehension. You seem to have missed the main idea, which is quite clear and summarized nicely in the last paragraph.

How would you like to report to work not knowing when you would be paid. Or sit home not knowing how many weeks pay you might lose.

My brother is a hard working employee of the small business administration. He could financial survive many weeks (months) of being furloughed, but I am sure many federal employees live check to check.

btw, the GOP is much more than half responsible for the shutdown. I think I could provide more links explaining why this is so. I am very experienced in working with slow learners :)

John said...

Furloughs and unplanned layoffs happen often in the Private world. Tell them to apply for unemployment like the rest of America's citizens have to do at times. Remember I just went through this "worry" last Spring. At least the vast majority of them know that their seniority based jobs are coming back, they don't have to spend time looking and wondering.

Now you do remember that historically these folks get full back pay when the deal is struck. It is kind of like an unplanned vacation, though you are correct that there may be a little cash flow problem if they live on the edge.

Being my agreeable slow self, I'll say the GOP owns 60%. Better?

NumbersGuy said...

John, I will have to disagree with your 60%. Three parts of this issue are the House, Senate and President. GOP controls 1 of 3. That is 33% for anyone math challenged.

Bills are being passed by 1 part/body and that is the House. The other to parts/body are not NEGOTIATING??

Therefore, the Progressive/Liberal/Democrats are 67% of the issue.

John said...

Hi Numbers,
That is a very rational way to look at it also. Though I assume most folks see this as a GOP/Democrat thing.

John said...

MSN Backpay Likely

Another way in which the Public and Private world are different.

Laurie said...

Working fore the govt has been a very good job for my brother and your pts about the perks are basically accurate.

One other point about which party the public supports is a reminder that more people voted for dem house candidates than GOP house candidates in the last election. If we had fair elections the dems would likely win back the house in the next election (like what happened in MN), but because of gerrymandering Dems need to win like 55% rather than a simple majority

Finally here is one more link about who is wearing those black hats:

The Shutdown in 10 Infuriating Sentences

jerrye92002 said...

The Republicans bear ZERO percent of the responsibility. They have passed bill after bill after bill to keep the government open and it is Democrats who have blocked every single one, without presenting a single one of their own, except for a "clean CR," which means "just maintain the status quo." It's like doing nothing, which is saying a lot when doing nothing means you're spending almost 4 TRILLION bucks.

jerrye92002 said...

Wasn't there a study recently, during the Wisconsin fracas, showing that public employees make much more? Here's one:
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2013/09/public_sector_workers_make_mor.html

One of the big stories recently was how all of these "furloughed" Capitol Police chased down and killed that woman who attacked the Capitol. But the fact is that these are "essential" employees UNAFFECTED by the government shutdown. Reading comprehension doesn't help when what you are reading is a pack of lies, or ignorance of the facts. I find it hard to believe that "journalists" could be that ignorant, so I am assuming the former.

Sean said...

Studies like the one Jerry cites are somewhat misleading, though. Government jobs, on average, require a higher level of education than jobs in the private sector.

If you control for that, you find that folks with less than bachelors degree do much better in government work, folks with a bachelors or masters make less in pay but more in benefits, and professional degrees get paid less.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/30/federal-pay-vs-private-sector-compensation/?_r=0

John said...

Laurie,
We are a representative democracy / republic of individual states, not a national democracy. It is one of our greatest strengths, it prevents the urban areas from controlling everything.

Sean & Jerry,
I think Public employees may make less in many cases, especially the non-union folks, but I think their benefits, job security, performance expectations, etc are in a whole different world. Remember the Teachers fear of performance management.

John said...

I mean no one is holding the government accountable to profit, quality, customer satisfaction, etc goals like in the private sector.

I mean if Laurie's charter school does not perform, it will be gone. If a public school does not perform, folks will demand more money...

Laurie said...

My point was the GOP claim to represent the will of the people is false. Also, voters from rural/small states have a very disproportion level of voting power both in the electoral college and in sending enough senators to block/filibuster legislation supported by senators elected by the majority of the people. They have disproportionate power in house elections as well.

Clearly we have a very dysfunctional democracy.

John said...

It is not national democracy. Do you really want the high population density areas making all the laws? That I think would be a very bad thing.

John said...

You think those fashionable city slickers know better than us barn cleaning country bumpkins. Who again grows all the food???

Laurie said...

Why should a vote from a person in Wyoming have 3-4 times the power than that of a Californian in presidential elections? It seems to me an urban person's vote should count equally to a rural voter's.

Why should the views of 30% of the population (conservative/tea party) wreck such havoc on the govt and quite possibly the economy?

John said...

Our founding fathers were very smart. Do you want the low populace states seceding because no one listens to them?

Reminder, politicians are to represent the will of their people. (Ie constituents) That is why I think a bunch of MN rural dfl politicians will be out in 2014 for making gay marriage legal. Choices, choices...

Laurie said...

At least in MN we have a functioning democracy. About the unfairness/ dysfunction at the federal level your views are too idiotic for further discussion.

John said...

Now that wasn't very nice, I don't miss Dog that much.

It will be interesting to see how our properly functioning MN representative democracy self corrects in 2014. The gay marriage and tax increases may shift some opinions in rural MN... The farmers have been doing pretty well lately, I am thinking higher taxes on small business owners may not be too popular.

I agree, it is kind of unfair that the government is forcefully taking from my family to pay for the food, housing, healthcare, etc of others, including some incredible fraudulent dead beats. Well sometimes one needs to take the bad with the good.

John said...

Maybe we are back to this topic:
G2A Responsibility Hierarchy

Here are some interesting graphics.
State vs Fed
Sate vs Fed 2
Comparing Governments

Based on the last image and your comments, most Liberals wish we were a Unitary Gov't and not a Federal Gov't. I say this because the Liberals continually want to have the Federal government take responsibility for things that should be handled at the Local or State. (ie social programs, education, etc)

John said...

So are you really saying you would like the high population coasts to run America? Us mid-westerners would just live with the laws they set...

Also, you think the metro should control MN more than it already does? The folks in the rural areas should be powerless, their beliefs ignored. This doesn't sound like the Laurie I am familiar with.

How do you think the folks in the wide open spaces would take this lack of influence? How would you feel if you lived in Glencoe and this was the case?

John said...

Hopefully I answered the questions you posted above.

John said...

Jerry's Public vs Private Link
Sean's Public vs Private Link

John said...

CBO Report from Sean's Link

jerrye92002 said...

Laurie said, "My point was the GOP claim to represent the will of the people is false."

That's an interesting position to take when the part of Congress allocated by population-- the House-- is held by Republicans, while the part of Congress allocated by States-- the Senate-- is dominated by Democrats. The "will of the people" is supposed to be expressed through the House, and it appears to be working as it should. It is the House that agrees with the 60-80% of the public that wants Obamacare "fixed" or repealed altogether, and it is the House that has voted to keep the government open. It's the Democrats who refuse to budge on both issues.

Laurie said...

If we had fairly drawn districts, rather than gerrymandered, the dems would need about 50.1% rather than 55% to retake the house. Did I mention that in the 2012 election more people voted for dem candidates than GOP in house elections.

about "Also, you think the metro should control MN more than it already does? The folks in the rural areas should be powerless, their beliefs ignored. This doesn't sound like the Laurie I am familiar with." This is a good example of the idiotic statements to which I was referring. How about power proportionate to population, which is what we have.

When people get disgusted with the GOP the dems win. We'll see if enough people are care enough about gay marriage for the GOP to retake the MN house. I expect the GOP in DC is damaging the brand enough that dems will retain power in MN in 2014.

In DC f the dems did hold the house the Senate would gumming things up with the filibuster. I haven't paid much attention but I am surprised that they were able to pass a clean CR.

John said...

I think Jerry was referring to the GOP passing pieces that they like.

Laurie,
So you are actually comfortable with the coasts running the country? I wonder if you would feel the same way if the coasts were conservative... Or if the majority of the population lived in the Bible belt...

Interesting thoughts...

Laurie said...

I really don't see what leap you are making in which the coasts run the county. What kind of dramatic change in the election system are you imagining? I think California already has 50+ members in congress yet the Wyoming congress person seems to be wielding more influence in our governance.

John said...

In Iraq, a pure Democracy would mean that the Shiites would have 65% of the vote. They could/can make all the laws per their belief structure. I wonder what the Sunnis think/do about that?

Laurie said...

It seems that in the USA that tea party conservative are wielding power disproportionate to their numbers. They don't have enough representation to enact their agenda, but they do have power sufficient to mess things up pretty good.

You will definitely be starting a post in the next week about debt ceiling. What will keep us from going over the fiscal cliff this time. The govt shutdown pales insignificance to the economic havoc defaulting on our debt will create. I don't even know the the GOP is demanding this time. Will that also be tied into Obamacare?

John said...

USA Population Distribution
51% citizens near coast

John said...

I am betting the debt ceiling gets raised without a hiccup. Too bad for our kids.

John said...

As for dramatic change. It sounds like in your ideal world every vote would have equal weight in the USA. We would be a pure democracy, no States with their variations or checks/balances to give the minorities power. My point is that the USA was setup for good reason to avoid that.

Obamacare squeaked by along partisan (belief) lines because the checks and balances were weak at that time. That is why it is causing strife now.

Laurie said...

It will get raised if JB does the right thing and allows a vote. He will likely lose his job in resolving the shutdown and debt ceiling issues.

The coasts don't seem to be running DC to me. Maybe they do influence the presidential winner of the popular vote. If our govt reflected a greater degree of majority rule at the fed level things would be less messed up / dysfunctional.

John said...

And government would cost us even more than the ~38% of the GDP it is today...

Functional seems to equal Expensive from your point of view. Functional from my point of view equals effective and low cost.

Laurie said...

You sure draw alot of strange conclusions. Maybe a reading comprehension lesson in drawing conclusions is in order.

Would you call our current govt effective? That is hilarious. You would be one person in the 8% that approve of how congress is doing its job (unless the approval rating has dropped further with this shutdown and debt ceiling debacles.)

John said...

Source?

Remember.. Congress consists of the House and the Senate.

John said...

Also, do you see anything the Democrats are proposing that reverses these trend lines?

G2A Spending Trend Lines

Note: Raising taxes does not.

Are you comfortable with 50% of the GDP going to/through govt?

John said...

And yes, you maybe gone. However our children will have to live with the choices that we made.

Laurie said...

Congress, tea party hit all-time low in CNN polling

you might note that dems are more popular than the GOP.

Laurie said...

One last comment /link about Gerrymandering and our undemocratic country:

Now That's What I Call Gerrymandering!

How would you like it if a large number of congressional districts were drawn to favor democrats?

and lastly a reminder that my original point that the house doesn't represent the majority of American's views.

John said...

That is interesting... It sounds like both sides play the game and since I play the middle, I don't really care how things vacillate as long as big changes don't occur too fast. The ship is just too big to take turns like that.

Now are you going to address how the Democrats going to avoid turning the USA into a Social Democracy? Or is that their goal, just like those crazy Conservatives say. At ~38% of GDP we are getting pretty far to the left of our continuum. G2A Continuum

Laurie said...

I don't know why you fear democrats so much. Did they do such a bad job in MN last year?

My dem leaning family did a fair amount of complaining this evening about fraud / freeloading by people collecting SS disability (Sixty Minutes did a story.) We are not so different in our views.

John said...

I apparently fear Democrats because they seem to have no desire to really truly deal with the ever increasing spending curves. They think that government can effectively and efficiently enforce fairness. And they seem to think that they can rob from Peter and give to Paul without some terrible social and economic consequences occurring.

As for MN, it could have been worse. However the DFL ignored the will of about half the citizens and passed gay marriage. They increased taxes to support increasing spending. And they would have passed huge bonding measures if the GOP had not resisted.

The GOP has some crazy far Right leaning folks, the DFL has some crazy far Left leaning folks. I am just more comfortable leaning to the right of center where my personal property rights are respected and acknowledged.

Those far Left folks think that my household wealth is the Gov'ts piggy bank which is a very bad thing in my opinion. Even Hiram seems to think that.

jerrye92002 said...

Laurie asked, "I don't know why you fear democrats so much. Did they do such a bad job in MN last year?"

Surely you jest! They started by raising taxes by $2Billion to cover a supposed $0.6Billion "shortfall" (rather than reducing spending to match revenue), and some of those taxes they ADMIT were a mistake. Already, some of those revenue sources, like the cigarette tax, have gone DOWN rather than up. Stupid.

They imposed gay marriage on us, against the will of the majority, with no consideration for the likely social consequences. They opted in early on Obamacare, rather than taking at least an appropriate time for due diligence. They cut teacher performance evaluations and decided that kids don't have to prove they know anything to get a HS diploma. They took the teeth out of school ratings and, as near as I can tell, are easing school standards so that our notorious "gap" doesn't look so bad, while getting worse.

And finally, they are no taking full credit for the financial results of the GOP legislature, including repaying the school shift that Gov. Dayton DEMANDED in the first place. Is that enough?

John said...

FYI, I am not against bonding and good infrastructure investments. And it almost makes sense during these periods of low interest. However, remember that we and our kids will have to pay off the principal for a very long time.

The $496,000,000 Mortgage

jerrye92002 said...

Laurie,
I don't see how you can complain about gerrymandering; it's just not historically or currently an accurate portrayal of the redistricting process. Historically, it has been the Democrats who did it, and in fact it is named for a Democrat from Massachusetts who first practiced it. It has been most commonly used by Democrats in the South and most notoriously in TN, where one district was drawn 200 miles long and in some places less than a mile wide! The current MN map is not the map drawn by Republicans [slightly, IMHO] in their favor, or the competing one drawn by the DFL (because despite spending the large sum allotted, they did not produce one), but rather the one drawn by the courts, which favors the DFL.

So long as the maps put the same number of people in each district (though they make some funny boundaries doing it) you have to say they are "representative" of the people. If they also meet the courts' other criteria of: respecting political boundaries, communities of common interest and compact shape, it's pretty hard to fault them. (Frankly, I would prefer it be done by computers.)

John said...

To continue learning at G2A...

Wiki Gerrymandering
PJ Examples
Gov Track