Sunday, May 4, 2014

Control and Governments

Paul and myself were trying to have a discussion at MP FDR when the moderators once again intervened...
"Liberandians and political spectrums. Clearly some people are confused about their own location on the political spectrum. Suffice to say that you need not have read a single word of Ayn Rand or John Birch to qualify as a Libertarian. The confused and incoherent ideals of Libertarian/Randian pseudo philosophy have become so ubiquitous within the American right wing that many don't actually realize their so-called "independent" thinking originated. Tea partiers for instance tend to be particularly confused regarding their actual intellectual heritage.

Be that as it may, the rest of us must try to have intelligent discussions and liberals also seem to get confused once and while. For instance, I run across a quite a few liberals who seem to have forgotten that "limited government" was actually a liberal idea and is a standard feature of liberal democracies. That's what all the checks and balances were about. When so-conservatives show with their weird notion that "limited" government is their idea, and then seek to create dictatorial systems liberals would do well to remember their roots." Paul

"Wishful Thinking. Let us hope then that Liberals someday return to their roots." G2A

"Liberal's have not strayed from their roots.... Liberal's are not trying to establish dictatorial polices that restrict voting and marriage rights or attempt to use the coercive power of the state to enforce mono-cultural economic standards. Tis conservatives who everywhere from books bans to secret prisons assault liberty with unlimited government solutions to every problem, large or small, real or imaginary. The fact that such assaults are launched under the guise of "freedom" has long been observed as a standard conservative bait and switch. Somebody once said: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." THAT person or persons, will NOT be a liberal, they will look a lot more like Sarah Palin than Paul Wellstone." Paul

"Nolan Diagram. There is a reason that a tyranny can be an economic Liberal or Conservative on the Nolan chart. G2A Political Self Awareness Because government control is government control. Be it preventing abortions or redistributing money.

The GOP and DFL both seem very comfortable using government to force the society to conform to their version of what is "good". And to punish those that do want to comply." G2A

"Government control is government control? Yes, so there's no difference between affordable housing and concentration camps. And no difference between Iran and the Netherlands. Where there be government control, control is control. Nolan chart? No wonder some people are sooooo confused." Paul

And my unacceptable comment went something like this...
"Different yet Similar.
One country controls based on wealth distribution values.
One country controls based on spiritual values.
Both are trying to save their people..." G2A
It seemed pretty tame to me...

Now if there is a day of judgment, it would be interesting to see how the folks of the Netherlands fare...  This an interesting article.
My Experiences in Amsterdam's Red Light District

Thoughts on Paul's initial comment or the following discussion?

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

Maybe it's just about distribution of power. Who should pick winners and losers? The Barack Obamas of the world? Or the Mitt Romney's?

--Hiram

John said...

I don't even know where to go with that one... Both are just politicians...

Personally I think the society should decide through consensus. That is why I like the USA's government so much. Things usually change very slowly...

That is why I like it when the checks and balances are working correctly and neither party has full control.

Laurie said...

Caring for the poor is a spiritual value and a central tenet of Christianity.

John said...

ONE: You shall have no other gods before Me.

TWO: You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

THREE: You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.

FOUR: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

FIVE: Honor your father and your mother.

SIX: You shall not murder.

SEVEN: You shall not commit adultery.

EIGHT: You shall not steal.

NINE: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

TEN: You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

John said...

Now I am a sinner and not a very good Christian, however there is no doubt in my mind that using.

"Caring for the poor is a spiritual value and a central tenet of Christianity."

As justification for having the government do significant wealth transfer is a stretch.

Christianity is also very much about charitable giving, working hard to live a good life, etc.

Anonymous said...

Is it okay to covet my neighbor's health insurance?

--Hiram

John said...

Apparently not...

"You shall not covet anything that is your neighbor's."

John said...

I sinned again this morning...

I covetted my CEO's BMW.

Maybe I can use government controls to make him let me use it on the weekend... I mean he has one, it is unfair that I don't...

Laurie said...

The 10 commandments are old testament. Christianity is based on Christ, whose primary teaching is love thy neighbor as thyself. Not all Christians are conservative and providing safety net programs is a common core belief and not "a stretch"

John said...

Safety Nets vs Safety Hammocks...

A safety net is something that is only there to save you when you are falling. By not having them immediately under you, one is highly motivated to strive for improvement and income. I mean no one wants to fall, and they are uncomfortable so no one wants to stay there. Which is good since they should be short term support and/or training programs. (ie 6 to 12 mths)

In my opinion, what Liberals support are Safety Hammocks. They are permanent nets on which some people are expected to live their lives. As long as people are comfortable in the hammock, there really is no incentive for them to strive for improvement.

Or as you might say, they are an income floor. As long as that satisfies their needs, they just get to live at that substistance level while someone else pays the bill.

I don't think even Christ would have supported Safety Hammocks since they encourage sloth.

Laurie said...

If our economy provided more jobs and more better paying jobs we would have many fewer families in need of assistance. Maybe if people were less greedy we would have a more equitable economy. Doesn't Jesus have something to say about the difficulty of the rich getting into heaven? I wonder what the cutoff is?

John said...

I think God gets to make that call...

Just as she/he will get to decide if slothful people who live off the system are stealing... If people who have abortions are murderers... If people who commit gay sex are sinners... Etc. Etc. Etc.

We have been discussing the selfish American consumers on MP FDR. Eric was polite or foolish enough to ask we what I meant that American's have caused half the problem themselves...

John said...

By the way, remember my favorite definition of rich...

"Someone who has more money than the person making the judgment..."

John said...

So do you think those "rich" people are keeping that money in a big Scrooge McDuck safe?

Or do you think they have it invested in businesses, real estate, bonds, etc that help to create employment and jobs for hundreds of millions of people?

The Waltons and Walmart, though they pay low. I wonder how many trillions of dollars they have saved the poor folk of America who freely choose to shop there.

Would the poor folk have been better off if the prices had been higher for the last few decades. I mean Walmart drives down prices in every market they enter. That is why the local businesses fight their entry into the community.

John said...

It is complicated...

American consumers absolutely love and celebrate low prices and store sales... Just think about the furor of Black Friday.. Yet we cry for higher wages and more benefits...

I mean look at all the people who have abandoned their local stores and employees in order to avoid paying their local sales tax and maybe saving some money on the price. A couple of clicks on Amazon and money is saved, fewer local employees are needed and tax revenue falls.

All in the name of convenience and greed. I am not sure how this gets turned around.

jerrye92002 said...

I want somebody to show me where Christ commanded that GOVERNMENT should "care for the poor." The Christian duty is to look after one's neighbor as yourself. Meaning when I don't work, I don't eat, and I treat my neighbor likewise so long as he is able. If he's laid up, I help out but only UNTIL he can go back to work. What is more compassionate than honoring their human dignity? Government welfare is incapable of compassion, discretion, caring and respect.

Anonymous said...



I want somebody to show me where Christ commanded that GOVERNMENT should "care for the poor."

Maybe He didn't the government he dealt with was a promising candidate for the job.

--Hiram