Tuesday, December 2, 2014

Fewer Police is the Solution

Moderation over kill at MinnPost has me bring discussions back here again.  I have had 10 comments denied over the last couple of days...

MinnPost Why Riots?
"As to your talk of 'scapegoating' Darren Wilson... I for one don't believe that officers of the law should be able to violate that which they are sworn to uphold. Police must be held to a high standard, as should anyone who is sworn to duty should be, whether it's police, military, politicians, etc etc etc. The issue at hand is that we don't have an equal application of the law in our society, and you are directly blaming blacks for that problem." Jonathan
I thought my response was pretty tame and professional as usual, it went something like this.
"Michael Brown was very high on pot, he had stolen property from a store and physically threatened the clerk, he ignored the police officer when he was asked to get out of the middle of road where he brazenly walked, he then was foolish enough to attack a police officer carrying a gun. Wilson, a decorated experienced police officer who had never fired his gun in the line of the duty was then subjected to a full Grand Jury that exonerated him and confirmed that he broke NO laws.  Now he has had to quit his job and go into hiding because racist people want to hurt or kill that White police officer who killed that violent young Black man who physically attacked him.
If the problem is that there are too many police in the poor communities and they are too strict with the people living there.  The solution is simple, reduce the number of police in those communities until the ratio of officers per citizen is similar to say Plymouth or Minnetonka.  If the police were the problem, the crime rates should go down, local citizens should be happier, property values should increase, bars should be removed from the windows, and people should feel very comfortable walking the streets at night.
So if we cut the patrols in North Minneapolis, do you think the community would be safer and more desireable?" G2A 
Here is another article that holds promise.

MinnPost Racial Bias Discussion



Laurie said...

I walk down the middle of streets all the time in my neighborhood and I've never really considered this a brazen action. the police in my city must not either because none of them have ever pulled up and told me to get the eff out of the road. In fact the kindly police in my city have let me off with a warning a couple of times when I have been pulled over for speeding. Once they let my teenage son off with a warning as well, when he had about 5 violations (speeding, illegal passing, open bottle, no license and no registration)

Maybe there is a touch of white privilege in our experiences, Or maybe they are so kind to everyone, who knows.

I do know that I wouldn't want to be in your group if there was to be a discussion of riots or racism. Not that I would really want to be in any group. When my church had a lengthy series of discussions with congregants from a neighboring black church, I chose not to participate (my church is big into anti racism)

Anyhow, your tone, which you describe as tame and professional I see as more disrespectful and provoking, which may be why you have trouble with the moderators.

I will try to be less rambling and more on topic with my next comment

John said...

Do you often walk down the middle of the street?

As for comment quality and professionalism. "Disrectful and provoking..."

Here is the policy...
"MinnPost welcomes user comments on our stories and posts. MinnPost's mission is to engage the public in news analysis of issues in their community and to encourage interaction with our editors, writers and other posters. We intend for this area to be used by our readers as a place for civil, thought-provoking and high-quality public discussion. In order to achieve this, MinnPost requires that all commenters register and post comments with their actual names and place of residence. MinnPost reserves the right to remove postings that include the use of foul language, personal attacks or the use of language that may be libelous or interpreted as inciting hate or sexual harassment; however we are under no obligation to do so. User comments may be reviewed by moderators and may be included or excluded at our discretion."

Jonathan and the other far Lefters seem to be able to show extreme disrespect regarding Police officers... They often seem to be getting away with accusing police of being racist, violating laws, etc...

It is interesting that you would find my comment disrespectful and provoking, and his okay???

Who exactly did you think I was being disrespectful to? I am curious...

John said...

If your church is anti-racism...

Racism Defined
1. A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. A policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. Hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

How are they addressing the people that are continually villifying White people? In this case, White police officers?

John said...

I just had a funny image pass through my head...

Laurie very high on pot walking down the middle of a road carrying her stolen cigars.

Would you really do that after knocking over a convenience store?

Laurie said...

So your image made me laugh, too. The reason I am so often in the middle of the road is it keeps my dog moving along better, near the sidewalk/curb he is way too determined to sniff everything.

the reason I don't participate at my church is I don't have a strong interest in racism, so I don't know much of what their antiracism focus is about. I also don't have much interest in debating the definition of racism with you, although I think there may be a difference in power involved.

I do think the moderators may be harder on you due to your conservative viewpoint.

John said...

Makes sense, my Springer Spaniel pulls something terrible when she is walked... So many "good" smells.

Now back to the topic... If the people in poor neighborhoods are just as law abiding as those in the burbs. Why do those neighborhoods need so many police?

Or is the racism so systemic that the Minneapolis city council is in on it. They chose to institute a near "police state" just to keep the poor down.

Sean said...

Surveys have shown that African-Americans don't want less police presence in their neighborhoods. What they want is fair and respectful treatment from police, and accountability if the police do something wrong.

John said...

That implies they are not getting that today.

And "respect" is a two way street.

If a police officer in Plymouth is spoken to politely more often, is less likely to experience physical violence directed at them, is treated with respect more often, etc... They are more likely to be more relaxed and treat everyone with more respect.

If a police officer in North Minneapolis is more often treated with contempt, more often threatened with physical violence, and more likely spoken to unpolitely. And there is a higher crime rate to start with.

Of course the urban police are going to be at a higher level of alert and arrest more people. This has less to do with Race / Respect, and more to do with the societal and behaviorial norms of the different communities.

The question is what percentage of people in each community see Police Officers and Law Enforcement as a good thing?

And how many see it as an undo burden that is stifling their personal or "business" behaviors?

Sean said...

"That implies they are not getting that today."

I think we pretty much know that -- to at least a certain extent -- it's not happening today based on the objective numbers of arrest rates, sentencing disparities, etc.

Respect is a two-way street, but the folks who are acting with the force of the state have a unique responsibility to use that power judiciously and fairly.

Here's a story that looks at attitudes in African-American communities:


John said...

I'll read this later.
Slate Black Community Concerns

"It's Not Happening Today"... I guess I have seen nothing that convinces me either way. Certain people seem to want to draw conclusions and state them as facts. (ie "One usually finds what they are looking for"...)

Here we go again.
Minnpost 94% of Mpls Police Don't Live There

Sean said...

The Eric Garner case from New York today is another in a long line of cases where there has been a lack of accountability.

Laurie said...

When I worked in the EBD school I had students swear at me all day long week after week and not once did I swear back at them. I was really quite good at maintaining my calm, respectful demeanor.

That job was not as difficult or dangerous as being a police officer in tough neigborhoods, but police officers could dish out a higher level respect than what they receive. OTOH, I know nothing about urban policing and and guess a certain level of verbal toughness is necessary for the job.

John said...

Just curious, were they the verbal abuse type or did they actually cause you physical injury?

I agree they may be somewhat different. Dealing with adult spouses, whacked out junkies, criminals, etc that have weapons and may use them at any time may make one a bit more jumpy.

John said...

So what do you think would have been adequate "accountability"?
Wiki Eric Garner

Reminder, Eric was apparently a 350 Lb asthmatic known criminal and died of a heart attack while being restrained. The officer who administered the hold lost their badge and gun. And likely the only reason he has a job is because the Public Employee Union fought for him.

Sean said...

"Reminder, Eric was apparently a 350 Lb asthmatic known criminal and died of a heart attack while being restrained."

It doesn't matter if he was a "known criminal" (and all of his crimes were non-violent). He had a heart attack because he had one cop around his neck and several other cops holding him down and grinding his face into the sidewalk. They ignored him when he said many, many times "I can't breathe" -- taking several minutes to start medical treatment.

John said...

So what do you think would have been adequate "accountability"?

Laurie said...

The only time I thought I was about to get hit was by a female student who took her anger out on my desk instead. I don't recall any staff being hit by students. Even when I've broken up fights I didn't feel in physical danger. Just plenty of verbal abuse.

The restraint issue is one that also pertains to education. One of the schools in which I worked sometimes did 4 person restraints with the student prone on the floor. They tried their best to avoid this situation and keep the hold as brief as possible because there are cases in which students have died as result of prone restraints in schools.

Anyhow, it wasn't clear to me how the officer in the recent case lost his badge and kept his job. I've also heard he currently works as an officer in another state. I think all officers involved in the hold bear some responsibility. Someone should have commanded to loosen the hold when they heard the man's complaints about being unable to breath. Are teachers better trained than officers on the dangers of restraint?

Sean said...

An indictment would have been appropriate.

John said...

Again you know better than the people who listened to weeks of testimony, studied the facts, studied the laws, etc.

When are you going to show some respect for our peers?

John said...

Arrest Video

It looks like the "choke hold" was only applied for about 15 seconds as he was taken down. Am I missing something here?

Any idea why he resisted arrest?

Other than... " He is tired of it?"

John said...

Given his physical condition, I was just wondering if a taser jolt would have also killed him?

Sean said...

The medical examiner report indicated "compression to the neck and chest" as a cause of death. How did that compression occur?

It occurred when he was jumped by multiple police officers, one of whom had his arm around Garner's neck, and the rest of whom held him down, including putting his face into the sidewalk.

John said...

Do you think a relatively healthy adult would have died from that take down? Please remember that he was resisting arrest.

John said...

"The medical examiner said compression of the neck and chest, along with Garner's positioning on the ground while being restrained by police during the July 17 stop on Staten Island, caused his death.

Garner's acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease were contributing factors, the medical examiner determined."

John said...

Popular topic.

MinnPost Racial Empathy

John said...

DeBlasio Comments