Friday, September 30, 2016

Is Trump Good at Business?

Laurie said...
Here is a bit of or support for my view that Trump is a terrible businessman/ deal maker.

Trump, the Bad, Bad Businessman

Warren Buffett Is Latest Billionaire to Excoriate Donald Trump

78 comments:

John said...

Laurie,
I read them both completely and see no smoking gun.

We apparently don't know what he inherited?
We don't know what he spends every year?
We don't know what he is worth today?

So it seems we have a lot of opinions on both sides and no facts.

John said...

Now this has more meat and it is not favorable to Trump.

Independent Trump Business History

Anonymous said...

It would certainly help if he released his taxes. My sense is that Trump hasn't really been active in business since his early '90s bankruptcies. Since then, he has been on a pretty short leash, mostly leasing his name.

--Hiram

Anonymous said...

Would you hire Donald Trump for a middle management position?

Would you invite him to participate in a phone bank you were organizing?

--Hiram

jerrye92002 said...

From what I read, Trump inherited something between $20 million and $100 million, plus a lot of business connections and know-how. He is now worth somewhere between $800 million and $4 billion. Any way you look at it, he has made a tremendous fortune beyond where he started. It's somewhere around 10% ROI, but that ain't hay.

John said...

Politifact Inheritance

WP Trump History

Investopedia

Seems like a mystery, but it is certain that we was blessed to have his Father's wealth to rely on when he made HUGE mistakes.

And I am not sure that I count his books and shows as "managing a business". He was simply an entertainer getting paid. That is unless you want to believe that sports millionaires are excellent business men.

Anonymous said...

The thing about Trump is that he doesn't seem to have cash.

--Hiram

Laurie said...

The clear and present danger of Donald Trump

so what do you think, John, where do you disagree with this editorial?

jerrye92002 said...

Laurie, I know you didn't ask me so feel free to disregard my comments. Just as I tend to disregard anything that comes out of the Washington Post these days. I think the place to disagree starts with the very first sentence of the piece, "IF YOU know that Donald Trump is ignorant, unprepared and bigoted,..." I know no such thing, so what if what the author seems to know is absolutely false? Then anything that follows is without basis, and so it is here. I get so tired of having political opponents tell me who my candidate is and what he/she will do in office. Really, shouldn't I be getting that information directly from the candidate? And even then applying some sort of "reality test" to what may be hollow promises or political spin? Shouldn't I assume that the political opponent may be biased and trying to tarnish my candidate?

jerrye92002 said...

I don't know, he just offered to double match contributions up to $2 million. How much of Hillary's wealth is she committing to her campaign?

jerrye92002 said...

"And I am not sure that I count his books and shows as 'managing a business'."

OK, I count by the bottom line, regardless of the details. But let us assume the negative of the original premise, here. Suppose Trump is not a very good businessman, by at least one of a number of definitions of the term. So what? You really think that he is going to bankrupt a country that's already $20 trillion in debt?

Anonymous said...

I count by the bottom line, regardless of the details

Nobody has a bottom line. We do know he has problems paying his subscribers, and we have a pretty good idea that he pays no income tax.

Of course he does say his brand is worth billions, and that is something he has a right to say.

--Hiram

jerrye92002 said...

If he really is paying no income tax, then he is good at business.

John said...

Laurie,
From your article, "but you doubt he could implement anything too radical."

I guess I don't doubt that he could... I guess I doubt that he would... What would ruining relations with other countries do to help him?

As for "gutting environmental and workplace regulations, slashing taxes so that the debt skyrockets, appointing Supreme Court justices who oppose a woman’s right to have an abortion." You likely see these as terrible things, where as Conservatives see them as a good start...

The reality is that Public employee unions are part of why our government programs are so expensive and perform so questionably. We have a lot of environmental regulations that are a great burden on US businesses, are they all necessary?

The tax cuts make me nervous, mostly because no one ever has the guts to cut spending accordingly. Please remember that 1,000,000 abortions (is lives cut short) occur each year. It may be a practical solution but it sure is not a good solution.

So Trump probably could do some very terrible things... However it does not mean he will. He may try to rename the White House to the Trump mansion...

jerrye92002 said...

I follow the Global Warming controversy closely. Trump has an "EPA transition team" headed by an established "denier" and scientist. He has suggested he might reject the Paris "treaty" that Obama signed without ever getting it legally approved by the Senate, which would be entirely Constitutionally correct. And it would make eminent good sense to executive-order the elimination of Obama's "clean power plan" because, by EPA's own admission, the costs will be massive and the benefits essentially zero. These are "terrible things" only if you're of the unreasoned opinion that they are.

Anonymous said...

Give the guy credit. Although Trump wasn't able to make sin profitable at least he made big money on the losses.

--Hiram

Laurie said...

You think someone who tweets about a former Miss Universe at 3:00 am is a normal predictable presidential candidate who is likely to act rationally in the best interest of the country?

Mostly I find your comments about the anti Trump editorial too aggravating to respond to.

John said...

Laurie,
Of course you would find my comments aggravating, you support more unions, more regulations, more oversight, more government mandates / programs, higher taxes on successful people so more money can be given to unsuccessful people, giving women the right to be irresponsible and fix their mistake by killing a fetus, giving the bureaucrats control of our personal health insurance, etc.

A candidate who is against your agenda would seem terrible... That is why Hillary scares the hell out of me.

Jerry and Hiram,
You are both incorrect. If the idiot really lost $900+ million in one tax year. I think one has to question his business acumen.

And if he really lost $900 million in one tax year. He shouldn't be paying taxes since in America business only pay taxes on profits. Not paying taxes is "Not Making Big Money". Or do you think our government was sending checks to Trump each year?

"If he really is paying no income tax, then he is good at business."
"Give the guy credit. Although Trump wasn't able to make sin profitable at least he made big money on the losses."

Laurie said...

so, John, you completely ignored my main question which was "is someone who tweets about a former Miss Universe at 3:00 am is a normal, predictable presidential candidate who is likely to act rationally in the best interest of the country? "

also, I am a little surprised that you now favor outlawing abortion and by supporting Trump also favor slashing taxes, thus exploding the deficit.

Mostly, what I can't believe is that you don't have concerns about Trump's temperament and fitness to be the most powerful leader on the planet.

John said...

Laurie,
Which part of I think both candidates are bad and in 5 weeks I will need to choose between the lesser of the 2 evils have you missed?

We have a petulant child with a so so platform on one side... And

A condescending stuffed shirt with a terrible Democratic Socialist platform on the other...

The good thing about the child is that I can guarantee that he will act in his best self interest. He wants to go down in history as a Great President!!!

As for the condescending stuffed shirt, she also wants to go down in history as a great President. However she seems willing to cripple our capitalistic society by doubling down on big government and high taxes to do it.

If you are not concerned about the competency and potential long lasting damage that can be done by both candidates, you probably should give it more thought.

John said...

As for slashing taxes, I am fine with that as long as they slash spending also.

Regrading abortion rights, please remember that I am anti-abortion pro-choice so I can go either way. Though I think a Mother and Father should have the right to choose. This whole "Mother gets to choose because the baby is reliant on her life support system" is a crock.

Laurie said...

I believe that we have covered repeatedly that that with a republican congress Hillary will not be able to implement her "dangerous socialistic agenda" so remind me again what long lasting damage you are concerned about under a Clinton presidency. Also, what concerns do you have about Clinton's competency? She seems extremely competent to me. It seems that it is her ideology that you object to and probable a couple lapses in judgement.

While Trump, on the other hand, is extremely unpredictable and it is easy to make a case that he has the arrested development of a middle school student. Earlier Today I was commenting while on a walk that if Trump had the ability to hold it together to run a disciplined, focused campaign for Sept. and Oct. he would have won. I am hoping that if he somehow manages to pull it together for the last 5 weeks it will be too little too late.

John said...

I am still assuming Hillary is going to win given Trump's inability to learn and change his self destructive behaviors. However there is always a small hope that Trump will learn humility and wisdom... Probably a very small hope.

If he dos "flame out", I hope that he does it in such a way that even his devout followers start ignoring him. I can not imagine having on going conversations with my parents regarding how the system robbed him of the election...

Anonymous said...

Trump has to learn intelligence. Let's see how that works out.

"While Trump, on the other hand, is extremely unpredictable and it is easy to make a case that he has the arrested development of a middle school student"

On the contrary, Donald seems easily manipulated and quite predictable. The aftermath of Monday night's debate proved that well enough.


--Hiram

Laurie said...

Would Trump being disciplined and focused for these last 5 weeks convince you that he has the temperament necessary to be leader of the free world? I believe he has already proven he does not have discipline, focus and emotional regulation that the presidency requires (5 weeks of behaving like a normal candidate is not enough given his unhinged history to date)

Also, what do you think of his business deals in light of the news today of his nearly $1 billion dollar loss in 1995. Seems like a good business man would not have losses of this magnitude.

jerrye92002 said...

I just don't understand all this fracas over Miss Universe except that it is another ploy to cast aspersions on Mr. Trump based on a totally false narrative, and to distract from what should be the real issues-- immigration, security, the economy.

I guess I would agree that his reactions are those of a child. A child is bluntly honest in most things, and the one thing that angers them is being treated unfairly or lied about. If the media would quit being stenographers and bullhorns for Hillary's lies, Trump would be just fine.

Funny, that Trump lost nearly $1 billion in one year, while the US government "lost" almost $10 TRILLION over the last 8 years. Maybe we NEED a businessman, even a bad one, to cut down on our losses?

John said...

Jerry,
It was just bait that he pursued because he is a child... I wonder what the next shiny object they will dangle in front of him to encourage him to jump through their hoops.

Laurie said...

Another favorite columnist of mine, EJ Dionne, raises the point that it should be time for politicians (i.e. McConnell and P Ryan) to put country before party and unendorse Trump.

Trump’s last tweet?

John said...

Laurie,
It will depend on if I truly believe he has learned humility and wisdom or if I think he is just reading off the teleprompter like an actor.

John said...

CNN Money Article

Laurie said...

So Trump is 70 years old and you think that this month of October is when he when will finally learn humility and wisdom and he will persuade you of this by acting like a normal person for a month and refraining from doing something stupid or boorish. Just forget about his history of narcissism that goes back about 40 years. That's pretty funny.

John said...

Well that or someone could actually choose to bring Hillary up on charges finally. A lot can happen in 5 weeks. :-)

Anonymous said...

Republicans need to explain why we should elect as president a guy no rational person would entrust with a phone bank.

After the election, the burden will be on Republicans to explain why a party who nominated Donald Trump should be taken seriously.

--Hiram

John said...

Actually the nice thing about a Democracy is that only ~51% of active voters need to understand that Trump offers a better path. It is immaterial if the other ~49% of active voters and all the non-voters disagree.

jerrye92002 said...

See, there's the thing. The Democrats seem perfectly willing to ignore the best judgement of 49% of the voters and to label them as "deplorables" just so that they can gain power. And if that's not bad enough, they do it by insulting our intelligence and telling us who we may and may not vote for, based on their own phoney-baloney, plastic-banana, good-time rock-and-roll "reasons" and emotional blackmail. It's disgusting. Would I rather Trump put this Miss Piggy issue to bed once and for all and get back to the real issues? Of course. Do you think the Democrats are going to allow him to do that, or will they continue bringing it up at every opportunity and the facts be damned, while the media continues to distract with what is by all rights an insignificant issue?

Sometimes we complain about uninformed voters. The way this campaign is going, I think we need to worry about MISinformed voters.

Sean said...

"Actually the nice thing about a Democracy is that only ~51% of active voters need to understand that Trump offers a better path. "

Because the guy with this house is the guy who's going to fight for the people (isn't it great that you and I got to help finance his penthouse remodel thanks to his giant on-paper only tax loss!).

As Allen Sloan in the Washington Post points out:

"If Trump were truly smart — and wanted to lead by example — he would have disclosed his tax returns, showed the loopholes he used, and vowed to close them.

"I have plenty of problems with the Clintons’ financial behavior, as I wrote. But at least Hillary Clinton is proposing tax code changes that would cost her and her family money. Trump, by contrast, is proposing tax changes that would greatly benefit the commercial real estate business, which is his primary field, and would greatly benefit his own family. And when I asked his campaign last week whether he was proposing any tax changes that would cost him and/or his family any money, I got no reply."

Laurie said...

so when you don't have a good reply as to why we should believe Trump has suddenly learned humility and wisdom you lash out about Hillary should go to jail. That's a comment I consider to dumb to respond to.

John said...

Sean,
All profits and losses are "on paper". Do you think he broke the law? Do you think the tax payers sent him any checks? Remember that it is his money until a taxable event occurs. This seems to be a concept that many Liberals forget.

Laurie,
Why are you so vested in defending Hillary?

It reminds me of talking to my Parents about Trump...

You can vote for her even if she is flawed. No one is perfect and politicians are even less so. Or is it important for you to believe the person you will vote for is "excellent"?

Sean said...

"All profits and losses are "on paper"."

I don't think Trump suffered a $1B cash flow loss. I don't think his bank account shrunk by $1B.

"Do you think he broke the law?"

Nope. But it's instructive to the way that the system gives advantages to some people (like CRE developers) in ways that it doesn't for others. And it shows that Trump is trying to further "rig the system" -- to borrow his phrasing -- towards his advantage. Someone who is really going to fight on our behalf wouldn't be doing that.

But, hey, Hillary kinda seemed like maybe she coulda done something wrong sometime.

"Do you think the tax payers sent him any checks?"

Likely not, but it would be instructive to see his federal returns to ensure that is the case.

jerrye92002 said...

Now isn't this a fine example of twisted thinking? Here we are being encouraged to condemn Mr. Trump for following the tax laws as written, and to consider the people who WROTE those tax laws (and acres of others) as exemplars of financial rectitude.

jerrye92002 said...

And while I don't think the government wrote Mr. Trump any checks, the "tu quoque" argument here would contain two words: Solyndra and Iran.

Sean said...

"Here we are being encouraged to condemn Mr. Trump for following the tax laws as written"

I'm not condemning Mr. Trump for following the tax laws. I'm condemning him for proposing a doubling-down on those tax laws to further lower his own personal tax burden. I'm suggesting that he's not "fighting for the little guy" but rather seeking to further enrich himself.

John said...

Apparently Trump did suffer the financial loss or he would be in jail.

That is unless you think the IRS Auditors are corrupt.

Sean said...

You don't understand how the tax code work on behalf of real estate developers. What probably happened here was that Trump had to unload his Atlantic City casinos for less than their full value. Trump almost certainly had a bank putting up the majority of the money. When the casino went under and the property was sold for less than what was owed, the bank swallowed most of the financial loss. However, the tax code allows the real estate developer to take that loss, call it an operating loss, and apply it as a loss on their own taxes.

Now, Trump still owed the $916M as debt. Some of that could have been relieved in bankruptcy, which would show up as income in later years. Or he might have created a separate entity offshore and parked it over there so he could continue to get the full tax benefit of the $916M (it's also illegal if that's the only reason you create such an entity). That's why we need to see Trump's tax returns to get the full picture of what's going on here.

John said...

Now again... Do you think the IRS Auditors are corrupt or incompetent?

What criminal action do you think the general population is going to find that the IRS personnel have not?

Sean said...

I haven't suggested that Trump did anything illegal. I'm saying that Trump -- like every other President in recent history -- should release his tax returns so we can understand his sources of income, who he owes money to, etc. just like we can for the Clintons. (If the Clintons had refused such disclosure, you'd be hyperventilating about it.) I'm also saying that Trump's populist claims are a bunch of hooey (to put it politely).

John said...

I agree that he should share his returns.

John said...

However I also think Hillary should share the transcripts from the speeches she gave to the "Bankers". Speaking of knowing who they are in debt to and the sources of income...

John said...

I mean what could she have presented to them that is so bad that she is unwilling to present it to all of us???

Sean said...

And whose charity is in trouble now?

"The office of New York Attorney General Eric T. Schneiderman has issued a “notice of violation” to Donald J. Trump’s foundation, ordering it to immediately stop soliciting donations in New York.

The letter, which was sent on Friday and released on Monday morning by Mr. Schneiderman’s office, said that its charities bureau had determined that the Donald J. Trump Foundation had been fund-raising in New York this year when it was not registered to do so under state law."

State Attorney General Orders Trump Foundation to Cease Fundraising in New York

Sean said...

"However I also think Hillary should share the transcripts from the speeches she gave to the "Bankers"."

False equivalency alert!

John said...

So you are concerned with what a Private citizen did with his money, but you are not concerned about what a past/future public servant was telling the Financial Services industry? Something that is so embarrassing that she is unwilling to share it...

You are correct, the Hillary secrets should worry citizens more...

Have you ever given a presentation that you were so ashamed of that you would be unwilling to share it with your peers.

Sean said...

"So you are concerned with what a Private citizen did with his money, but you are not concerned about what a past/future public servant was telling the Financial Services industry? "

I'm certainly more concerned about the former, yeah. Especially when that person is flouting the established ground rules for running for President.

Do I care about what Clinton had to say to the bankers? A little bit. I'd be perfectly fine if both candidates released their paid speeches (don't forget Trump has taken plenty of $ for speaking fees, too), but what is in their tax returns is much, much more important to me.

John said...

I think we will need to agree to disagree.

Now let's see...

On one hand, we have an idiot who says whatever is on his mind... What else do you think he would say in these private speeches that he has not said in public?

On the other hand, we have a calculating introvert who rarely has made a candid unplanned comment. I am guessing she has plenty to hide... My rationale is that she carefully says to people what she thinks they want to hear... And guess what the financial folks wanted to hear? Do you think it is similar to what she has been telling the Far Lefters? I am guessing.... Not...

Anonymous said...

Would you trust Donald Trump to participate in a phone bank?

Would you hire Donald Trump to work in a department of a company where women were employed?

Would you trust the nuclear codes to a guy who can't figure out what a simple birth certificate means?

--Hiram

Sean said...

A tax return tells me about your compliance with the law. It tells me how much you give to charity. It tells me about your sources of income.

That's far more important than knowing if one pandered in a speech. Which, I'm quite sure she did.

And, to be fair, we should point out that Trump has been more than willing to pander or say one thing in one place and the opposite in another. He's been anything but a fearless truth-teller. Take, for instance, his trip to Mexico. After months of bluster, he played nice when he met the Mexican President. Or, for example, his unwillingness to talk about Bill Clinton's infidelity in the debates. If he's going to talk about it, shouldn't he have the stones to say it to her face?

John said...

Oh come now, we know Trump is a greedy self serving businessman who skirts the boundaries of the law, and will do or say what he thinks he needs to at the time to get results. His tax returns have been repeatedly audited by the IRS, so there will be no legal issues.

Clinton supporters on the other hand hold her up as the paragon of virtue and public service, and yet she will not teach us as she taught the financial industry personnel... Maybe if we offer her $300,000 she will give us a peak at this knowledge of which we normal citizens are not worthy.

Sean said...

Whatever floats your boat.

Sean said...

A former crew member who signed a non-disclosure agreement and asked not to be identified, recalled that Trump asked male contestants whether they would sleep with a particular female contestant, then expressed his own interest.

"We were in the boardroom one time figuring out who to blame for the task, and he just stopped in the middle and pointed to someone and said, 'You'd f... her, wouldn't you? I'd f... her. C'mon, wouldn't you?'

This is the guy you're going to vote for. I don't think I could look my daughters in the eye if I voted for this clown.

John said...

I stand corrected...

Oh come now, we know Trump is a greedy self serving crass businessman who skirts the boundaries of the law and decency, and will do or say what he thinks he needs to at the time to get results. His tax returns have been repeatedly audited by the IRS, so there will be no legal issues.

Clinton supporters on the other hand hold her up as the paragon of virtue and public service, and yet she will not teach us as she taught the financial industry personnel... Maybe if we offer her $300,000 she will give us a peak at this knowledge of which we normal citizens are not worthy.

If a good candidate was a 9 on a 1 to 10 scale, why is so hard for Trump and Clinton supporters to admit these 2 are in the 4 and 6 area? You can still vote for the one you like better.

Laurie said...

Trump and Clinton nearly the same on your 10 point scale- your views have fallen down into the range of too dumb to consider or respond to.

John said...

So what do you score Hillary on a 1 to 10 scale?
- 1 is BAD
- 10 is Awesome

I think 6 was generous. And I am pretty sure my Parents believe Donald deserves more than a 4... Maybe this is why they are polling so close.

If it makes you happier we can go from 1 to 100. Then Clinton would be a 60 and Trump would be a 40... Is that better?

Who in history do you think deserves a 10 or 100?

Laurie said...

While I view your ratings of both candidates as off the mark, your big error is in giving Trump a 4. He clearly deserves a one (personally I'd extend the range into negative numbers.) Here is a couple more links for the Trump file ( I think I could easily send you dozens of anti Trump articles daily)


‘Imagine President Trump.’ Another conservative paper can’t, endorses first Democrat since 1868.



AP: ‘Apprentice’ cast and crew say Trump was lewd and sexist


As for Hillary, I think she is a strong candidate but a not so great campaigner. While I like her and would score her higher, in trying to persuade someone of her strength as a candidate I'd argue for a 7.

Laurie said...

about Trump polling nearly even with Clinton - one thing we have learned from this election is there is a large percentage of very dumb/ crazy voters.


‘Finally. Someone who thinks like me.’


New Poll Shows That 41% of Republicans STILL Don’t Think Obama Was Born in the U.S.

John said...

"large percentage of very dumb/ crazy voters"

I thought you Bleeding Heart Liberal types were supposed to be kind, understanding, tolerant, giving, open minded, etc. You keep being so intolerant and judgmental, they may have to take away you BHL card. :-)

Laurie said...

I admit to feeling a little bad about frequently calling people dumb/ crazy. I just can't see it any other way. If Trump was just a little bit bad as a candidate I could refrain from this characterization of Trump voters, but he is so terrible in so many frightening ways. I don't think I called Romney or McCain voters dumb in the last 2 presidential elections.

If you read the "someone who thinks like me" link you would agree that this Trump voter is very crazy.

John said...

Personally I think she has anxiety, little hope and spends too much time reading Right wing posts. I thought the end was interesting:

"“as Trump went on about “how the system is rigged,” and “wounded American families” and “our own struggling citizens,” Melanie said yes, yes, yes, over and over again, until Trump reached the final three words of his speech.

“I love you,” he said.

“He really does love us,” Melanie said, and soon, the balloons were dropping, Trump was waving to the crowd, and she was switching off the television. She didn’t need to hear any more.

“It’s finished,” she said of the 2016 presidential election, in which she was sure Trump would triumph and more and more people across the country would at last see the truth. “In my head, anyway.”"

It seems she is self aware and Trump preaches what these folks want to hear. Just as Obama preached to the similar folks on the Left just 8 years ago.

Anonymous said...


Clinton supporters on the other hand hold her up as the paragon of virtue and public service, and yet she will not teach us as she taught the financial industry personnel

Has anyone held up Trump as a paragon of virtue or public service? Shouldn't Hillary get credit for at least trying to meet a standard her opponent has never even tried to attempt.

How did Trump recover from his bankruptcies assuming of course, that he has? He did it by breaking promises to hundreds and thousands of people who trusted him. That's why bankruptcy is. Trump has told us that is how he would "make America great again", by defaulting on our obligations. Do we really think that's a path on which greatness lies? How do we really know that a man who is so proud of defaulting on this obligations to others, who tells us it is good business, will not default on his obligations to us?

--Hiram

John said...

Hiram,
At least Laurie agrees that Clinton is a ~7... What do you think she is?


What obligations are you think of?
"will not default on his obligations to us?"

Anonymous said...

Hillary isn't my favorite. I think she is the Jeb Bush of our party. But she is capable, a reasonable choice for president, and I have no problem supporting her.

In terms of obligations, Trump defaulted on his creditors in the business career he holds up as a reason for electing him president. We also learn that his business career has been subsidized by taxpayers. Who will subsidize his presidency? Besides Mexico?

Donald is both predictable and unpredictable. As someone who so easily manipulated by adversaries, he can be very predictable. He has this incredible weakness for bright shiny things, both in his business career where he jumped into the gambling business and somehow managed to lose money, and his fascination with beauty contests which proved his undoing in his debate. But he is often unpredictable too, particularly in his irrationality. I am pretty sure when he started his presidential campaign that it never occurred to him that he would have to release his tax returns. And now, left without a strategy for dealing with a problem he should have dealt with months ago, no one knows how he will behave.

--Hiram

jerrye92002 said...

Laurie, I think you are asking Hillary's question: "Why aren't I 50 points ahead?" It's simple. Tens of millions of Americans have made the judgment that your description of him does not match what they have seen and heard from him, and that his [too-]straight-talking, reality-star bombast is preferable to your "30 years of experience." 70% of us think the country is headed in the "wrong direction," and Hillary is offering us a continuation of the status quo, only better? I think we should elect the "Hope and Change" candidate-- Trump.

Sean said...

"Hillary isn't my favorite. I think she is the Jeb Bush of our party. But she is capable, a reasonable choice for president, and I have no problem supporting her."

I can co-sign this.

Meanwhile, the other party is offering someone they themselves describe as "greedy self serving crass businessman who skirts the boundaries of the law and decency, and will do or say what he thinks he needs to at the time to get results." He's the least qualified Presidential nominee in my lifetime, and probably many others, just based on his slender understanding of policy. When you add his temperament, personality, and history of degrading and disgusting comments directed on the basis of gender, religion, LGBT status, body shape, etc., he's patently unacceptable for the office.

Sean said...

"[too-]straight-talking"

He lies constantly!

Anonymous said...

Why aren't I 50 points ahead?

Hillary is a not very skilled politician who is out of temper with the times. Within her own party she was seriously challenged by an elderly socialist.

Tens of millions of people are supporting Trump, and I think that is an indication of the decline of our democracy. I don't believe any reasonable person could possibly take Trump seriously, and it is deeply troubling that 10s of millions of people who don't take him seriously are willing to vote for him anyway.

For fans of classic analogies, I wonder if the fall of Rome worked out that way.

--Hiram

jerrye92002 said...

Between Sean and Hiram, we have adequately described tens of millions of Americans as not only "deplorables" but just plain unreasoning. Odd. I consider myself a reasonable person, and the only thing I don't understand is why Hillary isn't 50 points BEHIND.

And Sean, I would point out that "least qualified" is your OPINION. I don't see any way of proving that on a factual basis. And I can think of others worthy of the title.

Laurie said...

You can use all the newspapers refusing to endorse the republican candidate for the first time in 150 years as evidence that Trump is unusually unqualified. (see previous link about newspaper endorsements.)

Anonymous said...

Between Sean and Hiram, we have adequately described tens of millions of Americans as not only "deplorables" but just plain unreasoning

I don't know that Trump voters are unreasoning. I think they all knew Donald was lying when he was questioning Obama's citizenship. The real problem, and the real signal for America's decline is that they didn't care, that truth held no value for them. It's that which is frightening.

--Hiram

Sean said...

"I don't know that Trump voters are unreasoning."

I would agree. I think they're over-reasoned. They've built up all sorts of justifications to toss away their Christian conservative credentials to vote for a guy who can't even give half-hearted lip service to the issues that they claim to care about above all else.

It will be Mike Pence's job to take care of that tonight, I suppose, but I'm not sure swing voters are dying for his brand of LGBT paranoia and anti-abortion hysteria.