I have been discussing the causal / correlation issues involved in BLM matters on FB, and getting no where as usual. This White savior woman wants to paint the Black households as helpless victims who need White action to save them. I agree that society can help some, but I believe that the heaviest lifting needs to be done by the Black families themselves. The unfortunate reality is that no group of citizens is going to escape poverty and crime if their non-marital birth rate is above 50%.
These 2 graphs indicate Asian Americans have been escaping poverty the old fashioned way, getting and staying married. Really, it takes 2 involved adults to raise children well. Or one may do okay if they have great external support or can hire help. Whereas the Black and Native American numbers are really unfortunate for their kids. I am not sure what to make of the Hispanic numbers since the number of them has been growing so fast via immigration.
- Whites make up 60% of the US population and Blacks make up 13%
- Whites make up 11% of gang members and Blacks make up 35%
- 850 shot by officer in 2020. White: 54% Blacks:15%
- Whites committed 46% of violent crimes and Black: 36%
47 comments:
All the figures you cite are true, but ignore the root causes of said problems. Unless you believe that black and Native American people are genetically predisposed to such problems, then you have to look at societal factors that have led to those outcomes. What's different about the history of black (and Native American) people over the nearly 250 years we've been a country? The answer is sustained systematic racism that has not allowed these groups to exercise political and economic power corresponding to their share of the population. It's insulting to make problems for these groups and then tell them "well, you better fix it on your own".
Unless you have a time machine, the past though terrible really does not matter. And as I noted above "society can help some, but I believe that the heaviest lifting needs to be done by the Black families themselves"
What we can learn from the past is that red lining, racism, the war on poverty, the war on drugs, segregated schooling, etc propagated the problem or made it worse.
Now please remember that many of our country's immigrants and refugees have had it MUCH WORSE than our domestic minorities and yet many of them are succeeding at a faster rate. So you can keep blaming the past for the current problems of our home grown poor, or you can focus on what can be done today?
Unfortunately they have been conditioned by Liberal policies to believe that someone else is responsible for their problems and that they are helpless victims. Some tough love will likely need to be included in the solution to teach them that they are responsible for their success or failure.
The solution to poverty is simple, getting people to follow it is hard:
- Value learning and continuous education. Libraries are free and minorities have access to many other learning opportunities if they value it.
- Value marriage and be willing to work at it.
- Have only the children you are able to raise well.
- Stick with jobs even when they are annoying. And looks for advancement options.
- Spend frugally for the most part, save and invest.
- Avoid illegal activities and those who commit them.
And just think... None of these common sense behaviors have anything to do with race. :-O
You really don't get it.
Moose
Moose,
I am happy to listen if you have forward looking solutions to help Black and Brown children to have better lives than their Parent(s).
Not just giving them money to support their staying poor in broken homes and propagating their generational poverty, strife and high crime rate.
I assume those solutions may work for poor Americans of any race.
"the past though terrible really does not matter"
The past matters because it's not all in the past. Banks were still getting busted for redlining until the Trump Administration stopped enforcing it. The war on drugs to this day still has a disproportionate impact on communities of color. To pretend that the problems can or should be fixed by ignoring hundreds of years of discrimination that is still going on today and just telling black folks to straighten up is absurd and racist.
So knowing what you know today from the experiences of the past.
Other than calling me names, what do you think we should do today?
How do we promote that all kids are raised and educated in safe stable homes by caring capable adults? Or do you think generational poverty can be beaten while ignoring the children?
Step one is a real, sustained effort to dismantle structural racism. That means fundamental criminal justice system reform, fundamental policing reform, and some sort of a reparations program. It means real, sustained investment in communities that have been damaged over the years.
How is that going to in anyway promote this?
"How do we promote that all kids are raised and educated in safe stable homes by caring capable adults? Or do you think generational poverty can be beaten while ignoring the children?"
Chris Rock did a wonderful public service piece
"How is that going to in anyway promote this?"
I don't accept your frame of the issue, so I'm not going to address the issue in the manner you demand.
"Chris Rock did a wonderful public service piece"
Tell that to Tamir Rice or Breonna Taylor or John Crawford, among others.
I added an additional image at the end of the post.
It is 3 Mpls Maps that show crime vs racial makeup.
Now I can understand investing in communities, however if you do not end the crime in those communities no rational law abiding adult, family or business is going to move in there unless they have no other choice.
This is crime issue as well as a race issue, unfortunately BLM folks seem to like to deny the crime part.
I also notice you didn't play the Chris Rock "Bad Apples" piece...
Chris Rock: Bad Apples
As you know, I am a big fan of weakening public employee unions so we get rid of the bad apples in all areas of public service, including the police force.
You are the one who usually defends unions protecting questionable employees.
By the way, bad apple pilots was humorous.
Though a pilot's goal to stay alive is aligned with the passenger's goal to get to the destination safely.
When officers are dealing with a possible criminal that may choose to kill them. The goals are very unaligned.
As for Tamir Rice, it was a terrible error but the kids was waving around a gun.
As for Breonna Taylor, another terrible error but she had been dating a drug dealer and her current boyfriend shot at the officers.
As for John Crawford. What a mess.
I'm not going to re-litigate Rice and Taylor, but you're glossing over serious police misconduct in both of those cases.
So what do you think would be an acceptable failure rate given the millions of interactions between officers, citizens and potential criminals each year?
We know about 200 officers die and about 800 citizens die.
What would success look like to you?
Remember that 3.4 defects per 1 million opportunities is considered excellent performance in even relatively controlled environments. Of which, dealing with criminals, the insane, etc is not.
And what consequences are you willing to accept to attain that rate?
For instance, police letting felons go and possible resultant deaths?
Police dying at a higher rate because they hesitated?
Police avoiding the bad areas because risk is frowned upon?
"We know about 200 officers die"
Overstated. And many of these deaths are not due to being attacked by citizens.
National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Causes of Law Enforcement Deaths
"and about 800 citizens die."
Understated.
WP Police Shootings Database
"What would success look like to you?"
Minimization of "failures" and accountability when they occur.
"And what consequences are you willing to accept to attain that rate?"
Before we talk about that, let's more fully consider some of the consequences of the current system. The Minneapolis Police Department has a below-the-national-average clearance rate for homicides. According to the Murder Accountability Project, from 2000-2019, MPD cleared 47% of murders, compared to 57% nationally and 65% in Minnesota as a total. By all accounts, clearance rates are lowest in the high-crime areas of the city and homicide (because it gets the most resources) has the highest clearance rate of all violent crimes. So the police are doing precious little to prevent crime or take criminals off the street in the most crime-ridden areas of the city. When you add that to the now $57M in use-of-force settlements that the city has paid over that same period (with many more cases still being litigated), it's hard to argue that current model of policing is working well for the city. Under what methodology do we think that investing millions and millions more into this agency the way it stands today makes any sense at all?
Then let's go with 100 and 1000 out of many millions of opportunities / interactions.
"Minimization" is not a measurable goal. Many would say that is where we are today.
And "accountability"... Do you want to toss officers in jail every time things go sideways?
Can we begin to hold parent(s) accountable for raising young criminals?
Or can we hold the Unions accountable for resisting employees firings?
This should get fun.
I do not see any of your proposal helping officers to solve murders. And civil settlements are how systemic change occurs. Politician and bureaucrats start to change policies and spend more on training, etc, to keep their insurance premiums more reasonable..
Personally I would say that the parent(s), social services and school systems are the one's failing. Otherwise Mpls Police would not be working in a near war zone.
Maybe you should prove you non-racist bona fides by moving to North Mpls. :-)
"Violent crimes soared by 21% in Minneapolis last year, adding a painful coda to the city's struggles in coping with a deadly pandemic and widespread protests against racial injustice.
The city recorded 5,422 violent crime incidents, including homicides, rapes, robberies and aggravated assaults, according to preliminary year-end Minneapolis police statistics. That is a dramatic jump over the previous five years, which averaged roughly 4,496 such crimes. Property crime saw a more modest 10% increase."
"Citywide, 553 people were struck by gunfire, the highest tally by far of at least the past 15 years, MPD data show."
"Citywide, 553 people were struck by gunfire, the highest tally by far of at least the past 15 years, MPD data show."
It will be interesting to see how the Minneapolis experiment works...
"Then, last month the council voted to redirect nearly $8 million from MPD's budget to fund its own vision of crime prevention, investing in teams of mental health counselors, gang intervention workers and other professionals who could help thwart problems before they start and address trauma.
Proponents are hopeful that these programs of the Office of Violence Prevention will be up and running in the next few months, just in time for summer, which typically brings more violence. Others wonder whether crime patterns will return their pre-pandemic levels as vaccinations continue and more businesses reopen.
The depleted force is also down dozens of officers, with about roughly 155 cops out on personal leave, many due to post-traumatic stress disorder. Scores retired, left for jobs at other agencies, or taken a voluntary buyout.
Last week, department officials announced that the city's police force, which had 877 officers at the start of last year, was down to 638."
Since I only live maybe 6 miles from North Mpls, I hope the City of Plymouth hires more officers, not fewer. :-) Maybe they can pick up the pissed off Mpls officers?
""Minimization" is not a measurable goal. Many would say that is where we are today."
The goal is zero. There is no "acceptable" level of police misconduct. And, no, we are nowhere near close to minimization. As just one example, we still allow pretext stops. Preventing those would be additional minimization.
"And "accountability"... Do you want to toss officers in jail every time things go sideways?"
Obviously, that would be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Again, revisiting the example of Derek Chauvin: 17 allegations of improper use-of-force, but still used as a trainer of new officers. It sure doesn't seem like MPD was properly evaluating him.
"Can we begin to hold parent(s) accountable for raising young criminals?"
What are the specific criteria would you use to judge parents and how specifically would you hold them accountable?
"Or can we hold the Unions accountable for resisting employees firings?"
We likely do need some reform in this area.
"I do not see any of your proposal helping officers to solve murders."
The best way to help officers solve murders is to have fewer of them.
"And civil settlements are how systemic change occurs. Politician and bureaucrats start to change policies and spend more on training, etc, to keep their insurance premiums more reasonable."
I would concur this should be the case. But the evidence doesn't support that this is having the desired impact. Do you think the DOJ investigation of the MPD is going to show that reforms are working and everything is hunky-dory? How many more millions are going to have to be paid until we get meaningful reform?
"Then, last month the council voted to redirect nearly $8 million from MPD's budget to fund its own vision of crime prevention, investing in teams of mental health counselors, gang intervention workers and other professionals who could help thwart problems before they start and address trauma."
The budget redirection took precisely zero cops off of the street.
"The depleted force is also down dozens of officers, with about roughly 155 cops out on personal leave, many due to post-traumatic stress disorder."
This is also evidence that the current model is not working.
"Police Misconduct": Please define this one. Is that any activity that ends in an error, injury or death? Why would any person take a job like that? And if they take the job why would they bother with any risky situations where someone may die?
Yes the public employee unions do shield poor performers. No surprise there.
Well the young adult is caught robbing someone, we throw the parent in jail also. If you want accountability for failure to fulfill one's duty, that seems appropriate. Paying them millions of dollars for raising a criminal seems somewhat counter-productive.
Agreed, unions coddle the incompetent and harm the public.
So giving people money, parks, not frisking them, etc are going to stop the criminals from killing and dealing drugs? Really?
Given the inaccurate way they use statistics, I assume it will be pointless. as noted in the post.
If you say so, but $8 million and reduced head count beg to differ.
Of course, officers are pushing back. They risk their lives and citizens throw them under the bus when mistakes happen. As I said, good luck hiring officers when the threat of prison is always possible.
""Police Misconduct": Please define this one."
Violations of law and/or policy.
"Well the young adult is caught robbing someone, we throw the parent in jail also."
What if the parent did everything right, but the kid committed a crime anyway? How long is a parent liable for their kid's actions?
"So giving people money, parks, not frisking them, etc are going to stop the criminals from killing and dealing drugs? Really?"
It's never going to stop all crime -- certainly there are plenty of rich, white folks who commit crimes as well. Making sure that folks have more equal opportunity to succeed should have beneficial impacts.
"They risk their lives and citizens throw them under the bus when mistakes happen."
I don't really think that citizens throw cops under the bus at all. The fact that the Floyd and Damond cases -- which would be open-and-shut cases were it a non-police officer involved -- were rare and landmark decisions ought to demonstrate the fact that it takes an extreme case for a cop to get thrown under the bus. The MPD officer that did this, for instance, has not been disciplined.
"And "accountability" "Violations of law and/or policy."
That is what is currently happening in all these cases. Employees are getting reviews, reprimands, fired, prosecuted, sent to jail, etc. It seems you just want to increase the punishments to what you deem acceptable?
How about until they are 21 years old? Maybe criminal liability would scare some of these irresponsible parent(s) straight? I mean if you really want to stop murders, the change has to occur in the home. Maybe they would turn in their gang banger kids?
They will never have equal opportunities until they have positive attitudes, equal people skills and equal education. Again... This starts at home... See the Chris Rock video if you doubt this.
Oh come now... The BLM and this systemic racism preaching. That is pretty much tossing the whole system and every officer under the bus.
The wonderful union protections again...
"That is what is currently happening in all these cases."
No, it's not. If it were, the conviction of Chauvin wouldn't be so novel. If it were, MPD officers would be getting disciplined for their overzealous use of force to quell the Floyd protests. (The city has started paying out settlements, but not a single officer has faced discipline.)
"The BLM and this systemic racism preaching."
Are you suggesting that there isn't systemic racism? That blacks don't face disproportionate treatment in the criminal justice and policing systems?
"The wonderful union protections again..."
Unions aren't responsible for the lack of prosecutions.
This is the business of Mpls voters, their politicians, their bureaucrats and their unions. I mean they are responsible for what force is excessive, who gets reviewed and who gets punished. Are you thinking we should mandate how they run their city?
I believe that if you note that 36% of violent crimes are committed by Black citizens and only 25% of officer involved shootings involve Black Citizens, it seems that the numbers make sense. If you want to ignore the 36% number and pretending that white and black citizens are equally violent, then the 25% is high compared to the 14% the comprise.
Kind of like our school district being found biased because minority kids got in trouble more often. Totally ignoring that their home life and in school behavior are very different. If you are going to use stats and demographics, use them correctly. :-)
If not the unions, who do you think is responsible for the lack of prosecutions? Many of these problems occur in urban centers where minority races are the majority.
You keep wanting to think that race is the issue... The real issue is that more children are raised in broken high risk homes in some population groups. This contributes to many of society's ills.
And even some law abiding minorities do not want to give the criminals a free pass by blaming officers.
"The real issue is that more children are raised in broken high risk homes in some population groups. This contributes to many of society's ills."
But you deny how we got to that point and why we remain at that point. You think that folks can merely will themselves out of centuries of systemic disparate treatment without removing the conditions that cause the disparate treatment in the first place.
I am concerned about the last 50 years that have devastated the family structures of the poor children in America, the African American community worst of all.
You keep focusing on the ancient past like it prevents folks from
- getting and staying married
- having only 1 or 2 kids
- focusing on their children's education and welfare
- avoiding drugs, gambling, alcohol, smoking, etc
As I noted earlier, we have many recent immigrants and refugees who had it much worse off than our home grown poor. And yet they seem to be making better choices in many cases.
I don't accept excuses for neglectful irresponsible parenting from white folks, and I do not accept it from minority households. Why do you?
How I explained it elsewhere...
I think you have your causality backwards. Extended families were and are key to Asian societies, even when the rich and powerful ruled over them.
In many modern Western societies, the extended family influence and support system is weak. Adult children are focused on themselves. And in many cases as noted below, the nuclear family does not even exist to support the children.
Now I bumped and continue to bump heads with my parents, but they were always there to try to steer me straight. (no matter how much it annoyed me)
I personally blame the war on poverty for much of the US problem. One of the techniques that parents use to influence and teach their children as they enter into adulthood is financial support, a room to stay, etc.
Unfortunately Uncle Sam adopted these young adults in ~1967 and said...
- You really do not need to listen to those stupid parent(s)
- or work at your marriage
- and school is hard, so failing is acceptable
- if you want unconditional love, have a baby or babies and we will pay a large chunk of your bills.
Just imagine how that appealed to young adults who wanted to escape their bossy parent(s). And was that young poorly educated adult in anyway prepared or emotionally responsible enough to be a responsible parent? No.
In 1996, the USA clamped down somewhat on the baby making career. But by then generations were conditioned. Now how to undo that conditioning... That is the question.
And we wonder why our society is screwed up... 😮
"I am concerned about the last 50 years that have devastated the family structures of the poor children in America, the African American community worst of all."
It started long before 50 years ago, though. The now almost 60 year old Moynihan Report raised the very same concerns.
"You keep focusing on the ancient past"
It's not the ancient past. That's the point you miss.
"I don't accept excuses for neglectful irresponsible parenting from white folk"
Sure you do. You didn't huff and puff about putting Brock Turner's parents in prison.
Here is an interesting talk with Thomas Sowell whether you agree or disagree with him.
I think a drunk stupid horny Brock Turner is a lost less of a concern to our society than an armed robbery attempting Daunte Wright.
But I am fine punishing them if it would help.
Thankfully my girls have done nothing to get arrested yet. :-)
I credit that to my wife's excellent example and guidance.
"I think a drunk stupid horny Brock Turner is a lost less of a concern to our society than an armed robbery attempting Daunte Wright."
Felony count: Turner 3, Wright 1.
I'll just leave this here, the long reach of history continues to this day.
But the most disturbing finding in their data concerns Black millennials. While the typical white millennial family has about $88,000 in wealth, the typical Black millennial family has only about $5,000 in wealth.
It gets even worse when you look at the trends. White millennial families made huge strides between 2016 and 2019, and they now lag previous generations of white families by only about 5%. Between 2007 and 2019, however, Black millennials fell further and further behind — not just compared with white millennials, but compared with previous generations of Black Americans. While white millennials trail the wealth of previous generations of white Americans by only 5%, Black millennials trail previous generations of Black Americans by 52%. The typical Black millennial has $5,700 less in net worth than counterparts in previous generations.
"That's incredibly shocking, because Black Americans have made great progress in terms of political representation and other measures — but it doesn't seem to be translating into wealth gains," Kent says.
Kent singled out a few potential factors for this disturbing disparity between Black and white millennials. First, white millennials are more likely to benefit from having wealthy parents. Their parents have more resources, for example, to help them with down payments on their first house or to help them pay off their student loans.
NPR: There Is Growing Segregation In Millennial Wealth
That definitely was blown out of proportion. Thankfully the judge brought some sanity back to the proceedings during the sentencing phase.
Until we close the academic achievement gap, the wealth gap will persist.
To close the gap, we need engaged capable parent(s)... This is not a race issue, it is a belief system issue.
I stand corrected it is mostly a belief system issue, otherwise the Asian kids would be suffering also.
And yes there is some racism challenges, but focusing on them as the kid is neglected is NOT helping.
"the Asian kids would be suffering also."
The Asian community is not monolithic. Those communities who have tended to come here through a traditional immigration route (Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Korean) have done well because they already come to the US with a higher level of college degree attainment than the general American population. Asian communities who have tended to come to the US via the refugee route (Laotian, Cambodian, Hmong) have not fared nearly as well. The difference between these groups isn't really "family structure", it's the resources and capabilities they came here with.
I have never met someone so adamant in insisting that parenting is not the key to the successful development of a child. Well other than Jerry who wants to blame the schools.
The Asians may not be a monolith, however their family belief systems are pretty consistent.
These folks take your position, however their argument is so strange.
They say that many Asians have access to better schools, and that is part of their benefit.
While ignoring that married couples have higher incomes and access to better communities and schools.
And they keep talking about "better schools" like that is up to the teachers? When we know that "better schools" are usually related to lower poverty, lower crime, more engaged parents, etc.
My argument being that cultures who value marriage, parenting and education naturally have more money and move to better communities. (ie better schools)
Cultures that do not value marriage, parenting, education, etc have less money and do not make the effort to move to better communities. (ie better schools)
I mean why would they? It would require sacrifice, change, risk, etc.
"I have never met someone so adamant in insisting that parenting is not the key to the successful development of a child."
I've never said that. Please don't start this crap again.
"The Asians may not be a monolith, however their family belief systems are pretty consistent."
Yes. Which is why I pointed out the difference between different groups -- ones that even have the family structure you prefer are struggling because of the lack of resources they have.
Of course you say it every time you make excuses for people who bring home more babies than they can care for well. And then complain that they they are "too poor" to escape poverty.
And remember that the single parent number for Asians is not 0%, it is 20%. So yes they have some challenges.
Which is significantly better than the 72% for Blacks.
My argument, a child in most single parents are more likely to be at risk.
4 children in a single parent home are very likely to be at high risk.
Whether they are brown, black, white or purple.
The problem is ACEs and how to reduce them. Be they from poverty or unstable incompetent parent(s)?
These have a long term impact on the health and capability of children no matter their race, religion, etc.
Post a Comment