Moderate Minnesota

I thought this was interesting and left a comment.
MinnPost Gallup Finds MN not as "Liberal" as Its Reputation

I thought it has a lot to do with our continuum and my belief that people don't like the label "Liberal", my guess the results would change if they used "Progressive" instead.  Thoughts?

G2A Continuum
G2A Right, Left, Up, Down
Nolan 1
Nolan 2
Nolan 3
Nolan4
Nolan 5
Nolan 6 (sort of)
Nolan 7
Nolan 8
Nolan 9
Nolan 10

Control and Governments

Paul and myself were trying to have a discussion at MP FDR when the moderators once again intervened...

"Liberandians and political spectrums. Clearly some people are confused about their own location on the political spectrum. Suffice to say that you need not have read a single word of Ayn Rand or John Birch to qualify as a Libertarian. The confused and incoherent ideals of Libertarian/Randian pseudo philosophy have become so ubiquitous within the American right wing that many don't actually realize their so-called "independent" thinking originated. Tea partiers for instance tend to be particularly confused regarding their actual intellectual heritage.

Be that as it may, the rest of us must try to have intelligent discussions and liberals also seem to get confused once and while. For instance, I run across a quite a few liberals who seem to have forgotten that "limited government" was actually a liberal idea and is a standard feature of liberal democracies. That's what all the checks and balances were about. When so-conservatives show with their weird notion that "limited" government is their idea, and then seek to create dictatorial systems liberals would do well to remember their roots." Paul

"Wishful Thinking. Let us hope then that Liberals someday return to their roots." G2A

"Liberal's have not strayed from their roots.... Liberal's are not trying to establish dictatorial polices that restrict voting and marriage rights or attempt to use the coercive power of the state to enforce mono-cultural economic standards. Tis conservatives who everywhere from books bans to secret prisons assault liberty with unlimited government solutions to every problem, large or small, real or imaginary. The fact that such assaults are launched under the guise of "freedom" has long been observed as a standard conservative bait and switch. Somebody once said: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." THAT person or persons, will NOT be a liberal, they will look a lot more like Sarah Palin than Paul Wellstone." Paul

"Nolan Diagram. There is a reason that a tyranny can be an economic Liberal or Conservative on the Nolan chart. G2A Political Self Awareness Because government control is government control. Be it preventing abortions or redistributing money.

The GOP and DFL both seem very comfortable using government to force the society to conform to their version of what is "good". And to punish those that do want to comply." G2A

"Government control is government control? Yes, so there's no difference between affordable housing and concentration camps. And no difference between Iran and the Netherlands. Where there be government control, control is control. Nolan chart? No wonder some people are sooooo confused." Paul

And my unacceptable comment went something like this...

"Different yet Similar.
One country controls based on wealth distribution values.
One country controls based on spiritual values.
Both are trying to save their people..." G2A

It seemed pretty tame to me...

Now if there is a day of judgment, it would be interesting to see how the folks of the Netherlands fare...  This an interesting article.
My Experiences in Amsterdam's Red Light District

Thoughts on Paul's initial comment or the following discussion?

No Progressive Majority in America

"Frum says There Is No Progressive Majority in America. I think he is wrong and there is a progressive majority. The question is the distribution of these votes and will they amount to a win in the electoral college in 2020." Laurie

I agree with Frum as we have discussed before, especially if one considers Progressives to be Far Left.

G2A Hidden Tribes
G2A Where is G2A (ie John)?
G2A What would make Americans Happy?
G2A Nolan Diagram

Ironically, last night I watched Atlas Shrugged Part 1...  There is a good reminder to avoid Progressive policies. :-)

What Would Make Americans Happy?

The quotes below from G2A Neither Left or Right is Popular seem important to me.  And I thought the G2A Nolan diagram would be useful.

"I personally think both parties are unpopular because Americans are basically selfish and controlling in nature..." G2A 

"And your principal objection to FREEDOM is, what?" Jerry 

"Freedom is not FREE... It comes with many responsibilities to the society one lives within. It is truly the society that protects one's freedoms. And in a democratic society, we the people get to set the freedoms and the expectations. 

Needless to say some people will feel free and some will feel excessively constrained within any society created in this way. 

Please remember all the freedoms Conservatives strive to constrain:

• Women's rights to birth control and abortion
• LGBT rights to live as they wish and have their partnerships legal recognized
• Rights protecting one from another citizen's pollution
• Employees right to collective bargaining

To name a few." G2A

 Frome the diagram below, assuming the citizen distribution numbers are kind of close to reality, and that our policies, laws, taxes, etc are currently somewhat in the middle of the diagram at this time.  The logic being the Left and Right have been struggling at this game of "tug of war" for centuries. My question then is:

How many Americans think the USA is "ideal"?

Meaning the right amount of freedom, taxes, regulations, etc.  My argument is that there are very few and they look a lot like me...  The folks on the Left think we are not Socialistic enough...  The folks on the Right think we are not Capitalistic enough...

If this is true, how can our politicians be successful and Americans happier overall?

Where is G2A (ie John)

Sean and Laurie have been busy calling me partisan again.  So I promised to re-visit my "world map". It is a simple tool called a Nolan diagram, and it may not be perfect however I think it is very useful.

Since I am for reducing the total cost of government (% of GDP) slightly, I am to the right of the vertical line. Whereas many of the Tea Party folks want to reduce that expenditure greatly. (ie privatized social security, medicare, etc) And the Liberals and Progressives want to increase that greatly. (ie universal healthcare, free college, etc)  So yes I see myself just Right of Center compared to all the citizens in the USA.

In the vertical direction, I am for less government rules in many areas. If I were King I would legalize physician assisted suicide, let Religious people say no to LGBT people, legalize prostitution, subsidize abortions until 14 weeks and long acting reversible contraception so poor women would be a s free as wealthy women, etc. Why many Democrats and Republicans want to tell others how to live their lives is beyond me.

I am not going to make it as an Anarchist or Libertarian because I am somewhat against making more drugs legal, I want to deport people who are in the country illegally and I want to stop irresponsible and incapable baby mamas and daddas from screwing up more generations of Americans. I guess I see all 3 of them as simply enforcing our countries current laws and/or protecting innocent Americans. (ie unlucky kids)

I added the PEW Polarization matrix to this version of the G2A Nolan Diagram.  And it seems to indicate that I am just left of the median Republican, which also seems about correct.

All of this probably explains why Liberals call me a Conservative...  And Conservatives call a Liberal...

Finally, yes I usually vote Republican. I don't like a lot of what they support, however they at least talk about constraining government spending and control in our lives.  Where as the Democrats only talk about more spending and government. I could happily vote for a Democratic politician if they were more fiscally moderate, unfortunately they do not seem to exist.  However I will be looking into Phillips and Klobuchar before I vote.

Political Self Awareness

Where do you see yourself on the following graphics?

G2A Right, Left, Up or Down
G2A More Nolan Diagrams
Nathan Kleffman: Source of following graphic:
My beliefs land somewhere between Classical Liberalism and Modern Conservatism
based on the Nolan tests and the theater questions (see below)

G2A Perspective and Relativity - Source of following graphic
One way to determine where you are sitting is to consider the following:

• How many people are to the Right of me? (ie more Conservative)
• How many are to the Left of me? (ie more Liberal)
• Do you see Mother Jones as an "unbiased news source" and do you rarely argue with someone for being "too Liberal or Socialistic", you are likely seated in the Liberal seats.
• Do you see Rush Limbaugh as an "unbiased news source" and do you rarely argue with someone for being "too Conservative or Capitalistic", you are likely seated in the Conservative seats.

Knowing one's seat location is important if you truly want to be Politically Self Aware.  The seat location influences what you see and do not see.  Also, please note that people sitting on the far right and left can be watching the same play and see very different things.  So beliefs and statements may vary considerably from your own, while being very honest and forthright.

G2A Political Continuum - Source of following graphic
Note: Current US Total Government spend has climb to ~38% of GDP.  Most of the growth being in the area of entitlements.
If you want the government controlled spend to hit 45+% of our GDP, you are likely a Liberal.  If you think it should be cut back to 25%, you are very likely a Conservative.  I would like to get the spend back to about 33%, that would leave 2/3rds for people to use as they wish.

Thoughts?

The G2A Nolan Diagram Rev 00

So Moose told me I am not a centrist and Jerry said he does not need labels, so I stayed up much too late combining some of my past diagrams from...  G2A Political Self Awareness and G2A How to Boil a Frog  I will need to look at it when I am not so bleary eyed.  Thoughts?

Remember that if you click the image it will get bigger.

For your info I did a self check here and they say I am more of a Libertarian than I thought...  I keep wondering why Liberals mistake me for a Conservative... :-)

And here we go again...  And no I am not trying to fool the quizzes.

Over the years I have landed in this area every time.

Control Freaks: GOP or DFL?

My spending proof will need to wait another day or so, I misplaced a source and need to find it again...  To fill the void: here is a new discussion from the MinnPost Is the Party Over for the Independence Party article.  A couple of the other readers disagree with the following Nolan diagram.

 

This Nolan Diagram would likely draw similar criticism. For diagrams see G2A Moderate MN.

In summary, they think that only the GOP is interested in using governmental laws to control the behaviors of others. (ie social engineering, morality, etc)  I'll let their statements speak for themselves.

"Let me spell it out for you...your perception of what a liberal democrat is nothing but myth. And it seems to me that the only party that continues to want people to tow a certain line is the GOP. They're the party of social engineering." Jason

"Democrats and Liberals have a long list of principles we're very passionate about. One of them is allowing people the freedom to have their own principles." Paul

 "As we have discussed here over and over again, Liberal Democrats want many many laws to control the actions and behaviors of people based on their beliefs. Here are just a few:
- forced acceptance of the gay lifestyle in private arenas
- forced purchase of birth control methods that are against a group or individual's morals
- loads of regulatory emission control laws
- endless attempts to control gun ownership
- forcing to employers to pay employees more than the market requires.
- forcing people to pay to subsidize the health insurance, food bills, housing, etc of other citizens
- oppose free trade: try to limit the choices of people and businesses
- limit legal immigration by giving illegal immigrants priority
- other

All of these being excellent examples of why the image creator placed both the DFL and GOP below the Independents on the social freedom axis. Both groups avidly pursue laws to control other citizens." G2A

 "Right and you're so moderate that you only listed "Lib'rul offenses." 'Loads' and 'endless' and 'forcing' of things going on here... long on drama and short on specifics, or thought, or empathy. I notice the homophobia is still present, as ever." Jonathan

"The point of disagreement was regarding the DFL and their desire to use Laws to control personal freedoms. Paul and Jason denied this reality. I argue that they belong in the lower portion of the diagram along with the GOP.

If you want me to list how the GOP wants to use Laws to control personal freedoms. Here you go...
- Force women to carry embryo / fetus to birth.
- Deny people the right to physician assisted suicide.
- Deny people to marry a person of the same sex.
- Deny people the right to clean water and air.

As for things that both sometimes support...
- Deny people to be legal prostitutes, strippers, etc
- Deny people access to certain drugs
- Deny people the freedom to gamble
- Excessive taxes to disuade people from smoking/drinking

Now have I shown that I can see both sides?" G2A

Now what is interesting about this topic is that the far right conservatives say the same thing about Democrats.  It seems that both sides want to complain about Government mandated "Social Engineering" while striving to use it to their party's advantage.  Therefore they believe they belong in the upper half of the diagram or at least in the middle, and for sure not below the center line.  I mean both think they are fighting for freedom, not against it...

Thoughts?

Sean's Healthcare Improvement Plan

I was looking back at the G2A Nolan Diagram post for something and saw the following comment from Sean. I am not sure if I ever posted it for discussion, so here goes.

"Sean, If I remember correctly it was something like the German system. Correct?" G2A

 

"No. I think you can make some changes to the ACA to make it work much better. Here are four such changes that could make an impact right away:

• I would extend the subsidies beyond their current cutoff point to limit some of the impact on those who are being impacted by the rising individual market premiums. The current cutoff point is around $90,000 income for a family of 4, I would extend that up to $250,000 with the subsidies having less value the further you move up the scale.
• I would increase penalties on those who choose to go uninsured, or alternatively, institute automatic enrollment in Medicaid or a public option (see below).
• I would institute a public option (allow people to buy into Medicaid or Medicare) at first in areas where there is only one private insurance option and to cover those who don't purchase insurance on their own if automatic enrollment were selected.
• I would reinstate risk corridor payments in areas where there are low amounts of competition." Sean

Heritage Foundation: Rational or Insane?

An Anonymous commenter weighed in on the G2A FICA: Income vs Benefit post with a link that has a wealth of charts, ideas, etc. (Heritage: Federal Budget in Pictures) (Heritage: About Fed budget Pics)

Now it looks like the Heritage Foundation has been around for quite awhile. (About Heritage Foundation)  So one may assume they are relatively reasonable and supported by someone, yet to me they definitely seem to be far off to the Right and somewhat Totalitarian. (Heritage: Issues) Which is where the Nolan chart would put them. (Nolan Chart)

Including one of my favorite inconsistencies. (Heritage: Obamacare)  Where they complain about their Religious Rights being trampled on while trying to take away the Rights of those that are Pro-Choice. (G2A Abortion and Conservatives)

With this wealth of info and opinion, I am sure I'll be looking further into their web pages.  Until then...  What do you think about this Organization and their beliefs?  Especially their plan to Save the Dream.

How Many Sub-Parties are There?

Eric writes here about the current chaos of our "2" party system. MP 5 Parties in 2?

And in the comments here, Paul and Charles make an argument that both Clintons are actually Right of Center.  MP War On Gov't  Also, Paul makes a note that the Progressives have had it all figured out since the 70's and the Liberals are part of an "Elitism" problem.  I was going to copy some of their comments, but they are too wordy.

My question is where is the center from your perspective? Are there more classifications? What is the difference between a Liberal and a Progressive?  Is the Progressive to a Liberal as the Tea Party is to a Conservative?

• Democratic Socialists /Progressives
• Liberals
• Moderate Liberals
• Undecided
• Moderate Conservatives
• Conservatives
• Tea Party Conservatives

G2A Political Self Awareness  And remember that per the Nolan Diagram there is "wealth transfer" axis and a "personal freedom" axis.  Are there more that Nolan did not recognize?

Government Control

So Jerry has been advocating for more government regulations and oversight lately.  Yeah really. :-)

He is supporting the travel ban, the cutting of funding to organizations who include abortion as an option, the increase in voter ID and he has always been luke warm on LGBT rights.  His logic is that we can not prove that no fraudulent voters are voting, that no terrorist have snuck in with the refugees, that being LGBT is a physiological state of being, when a human life begins, etc so we should create government regulations and hurdles because...  Here is where this led to.

" I agree... Let's force Trump to come clean and sell his businesses...

You are sounding like a Liberal... We need more regulations and checks and burdens because you can not prove that someone is not polluting, being fraudulent, etc.

As I say often, there is a reason both the Dems and GOP are under the line on the Nolan diagram... They are regulation and government control obsessed. Just about different things.

The GOP:

• someone may sneak by, let's pass a law and regulate
• a pregnant woman may choose wrong, let's pass a law and regulate
• a few inappropriate voters may vote, let's pass a lwa and regulate
• someone may kiss the wrong person, let's pass a law and regulate

It is very sad... G2A 

"Some very nice false choices, there." Jerry

Please remember that I like the Nolan diagram, for me it explains things pretty nicely and this is my favorite that I found on a quora site. What I like about it is that it depicts what seems to be reality, both parties are more than happy to use the government to control people to their way of thinking.  Maybe that is why we have SO MANY LAWS and SO MUCH GOVERNMENT...  Thoughts?

Trump and Facism?

Those MP Moderators... MP Hope from Bad Week

"Methods: What I haven't seen is a discussion on methods: Seems that Mr. T used most every propaganda trick in the book that equates to Machiavellian and Fascism. ~ 5-6 months back a suggestion was made to fight fire with fire, however, it may have been you Paul, that suggested that the progressive not entertain that idea! So is it elitism, to try to play to folks logic, fact & intellect? Or; better to go the low road with the slogans, veiled realities, and UN-substantiated character assassination? 

Personally I think the low road: Got an in-law that was a CFO, did he check T's numbers before buying? Not a chance Just let that one blow on by. Hate to say it but plenty of fascism to go around in America, sold out for a slogan." Dennis

"So where exactly do you see fascism in America?" Ilya

"Anti Muslin Rhetoric, Anti Mexican Rhetoric, (in the 30's of Germany it was the Jews. Stephen Banner, "Far Alt right (Fascism Land) Strategist for Trump!" Dennis

"Personally I think it is the Democrats who seem more interested in centralizing power in Washington DC... The GOP seems fine with keeping most of the power in the States...  Interesting question...  "Facism - Webster Definition - a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"" G2A

"The central point folks like Ilya and Appelen always miss regarding their argument that liberals are more prone to Facism is the reference to a "dictatorial" leader. We live in a constitutional liberal democracy wherein our presidents are elected and subject to Constitutional limits. No amount of hysteria changes that central fact.

The reason people get worried about a guy like Trump and other republicans is historically dictators emerge from the right, or conservative ideologies, that's simply an historical fact. There's never been a truly liberal dictator, and the liberal preference for organized governance cannot be described as a latent tendency towards totalitarianism. And in fact republicans are more likely to tear up the Constitution despite their frequent claims to be "Constitutionalist".  

Republicans are for instance on the record as Theocrats who think this is a "Christian" nation. They have typically been the quickest to exercise extreme police force, and militarized policing based on racial and cultural stereotypes, i.e. "rounding up" millions of people and deporting them, creating religious registries, etc.  

Republican executives are also quite a bit more prone towards violating the laws, ignoring Congress, and overstepping authority; i.e. Nixon- Watergate and the illegal bombing of Cambodia, Reagan and the Iran Contra affair, Bush and his "rendition" program, the Guantanamo prisoner, use of torture, etc.  

And of course there's a plethora of policy initiatives from abortion to bathrooms where republican politicians are trying to regulate individual personal behavior in the service of their "values", which is a standard claim of all dictators.

Now some will point to the Communist model as an example of "liberal" dictatorship, and that's a common confusion that conflates left to right political spectrum's with discrete ideology. Marxism can be said to have emerged form the "left", but there was never anything liberal about Marxism or communism. Marx and the communist hated liberals and claimed that their ideology transcending liberal vs. conservative political spectrum's, i.e. it was all about the Dialectic." Paul

My answer went something like this:  Lenin, Castro, Chavez, Mao, etc, etc. Facism can come from the Left very easily.  For it to happen the majority of people need to be desperate and willing to sell their freedom and common sense to take from the wealthy... (ie pre-Nazi)  I think we are pretty safe...

Nolan

The Challenges of Reporting

MP Fun Mirror  Here is a much more rational comment and my thought.

"Greenwald and Intercept do represent a new hope for change where investigative means asking the questions and where certainty is not a positive conclusion? 

Krugman surprises me a bit ...but maybe what's happening in those supported by mainstream corporate ,media will eventually compromise to survive by being with the "winner' candidate and his/her whichever of the 'non-choice' we now are stuck with? 

So it goes...if all we are left with are two unacceptable choices certainly I suppose media voices we thought were columnists with integrity will start accepting the negative foibles of whom they assume will win among our two sad choices ...and cling for survival as columnist not necessarily as wordsmiths of integrity if one wants to survive? 

Sad yes,so I suggest one need to develop a most athletic mind of sorts; to read beyond what you necessarily may not believe or accept at the moment but consider alternatives to standard, mainstream journalism sources, that read too often like the minutes of the local men's club...and explore a little further without fear of being beyond the limited scope and the influence of other ideas if your mind dare explore? Maybe Intercept sets a new standard where 'investigative' means something more that soaping of the news gathering culture? 

Hope this makes sense ...or scrap it, but either way one of Eric's finest articles lately...do appreciate." Beryl

"It seems the people a ways Left and Right of Center insist on seeing Heroes and Villains... When in reality these politicians are just flawed humans just like us. 

Trump and Clinton are both self centered people who have willingly chosen to live in the public eye and be "successful". Both have made questionable choices and made mistakes. 

How does that go... Let the perfect throw the first stone... 

I wish our culture would start focusing on why the candidates would be good for the position, instead trying to scare everyone against the opponent by turning them into the "villain"... 

Those Mills vs Nolan attack ads are going to get real old by Nov. But apparently us silly voters buy " G2A

Who are the Independent Party Supporters?

I joined in on the comments here.  MinnPost Is the Party Over for the Independent Party  It has many people commenting on what the Independent Platform is.  Here is what I think the supporters look like.

"I thought an Independent was just a Fiscally Conservative Democrat or a Socially Liberal Republican, since neither of the parties have room for these folks." G2A

Paul disagrees:

"Yes and No:  The IP party is comprised of republicrats and conservative libertarians, - THAT'S what makes it branch of the republican party rather than a truly "independent" party. In some ways it's an even narrower dogma than either of the major parties.
Meanwhile the democrats have "room" for Colin Peterson while the republicans have no "room" for Arne Carlson. The size of the democratic "tent" is part of their problem, it's rather like herding cats on occasion. The increasingly exclusive membership of the republican party, and the republican nature of the IP, has become it's downfall. The IP and the republicans represent two faces of the same dogma. I don't think even Arne Carlson "fits" in the IP because he may fail the fiscal conservative test.
We've seen so-called "conservatives" make this mistake before, they decide they're a "majority" of some kind, i.e. "moral" or "silent" majorities only to find out that the population is more liberal than they realized, and getting more liberal as time goes by. The IP thought that they were appealing to a majority, they're simply wrong, the more people get a look at the IP the more disinterested they are." Paul

I like how this Nolan Diagram depicts it.  I assume many more people would vote Independent if they could explain this better, standardize their platform and have a chance of winning...

Thoughts?