Thursday, July 2, 2015

What is Success and Who Attains It

Jason helped me come up with an idea for a comment / post, and the MinnPost moderators forced me to put it here after trying 3 different rewordings and having them rejected.
"Here's a news flash for you, John. Conservatives don't have a monopoly on being successful in life." Jason  MinnPost SCOTUS Rules


My response went something like this.  I think anyone can be successful if they can learn from and live by Hal Urban's Lifes Greatest Lessons and from Jim Stovall's The Ultimate Gift.

Based on my own history I have found the fiscal Conservatives are more likely to sanction these valuable lessons and philosophies, where as more Liberals seem to want to wait around for or insist that someone help them "be successful".  Now I know that this is not always the case, but it does seem to be true more often than not.

Thoughts?

32 comments:

Anonymous said...

I look at Marco Rubio who simply has no idea how to manage his personal finances, and yet is a successful conservative politician. Or Jeb Bush, whose wealth is mostly derived from his inheritance and his family political connections.

I really don't think success in business is either a liberal or conservative thing; it's more based on pragmatism and successful opportunism.

--Hiram

John said...

Well I do agree that it helps if one is somewhat pragmatic and willing to seize opportunities when they present themselves. Looking at life through a rose colored or cynical lens, or carrying along grudges, fears, etc don't help much.

And I am thinking of success in more general terms, not just in terms of business, politics, etc.

John said...

How does one reach the end of their life with great memories, a feeling of success and few regrets?

Eulogy Exercise 1
Eulogy Exercise 2

Laurie said...

From my perspective conservatives may define success more by income / wealth and liberals may be slightly more likely to pursue meaningful work / helping professions more frequently. I think professors and teachers are more likely to be liberal.

Most people I know are moderate to liberal so I really don't have much to go on. I do have a few members of the extended family who are quite wealthy and they are conservative.

Anonymous said...

Taking off from what Laurie said...

Perhaps you've got the correlation wrong, financially speaking. Perhaps it's more often the case that financially successful people are conservative, not that conservatives are more likely to be financially successful. Meaning...it may be the success that comes first, not the ideology.

Joel

John said...

How do the concepts in the links I provided resonate with you?

How do you think they would resonate with your Liberal friends?

Success as defined by those links is not about financial wealth.

John said...

Though learning them and living by them may bring wealths of many types.

Sean said...

I don't find this sort of topic very useful at all. You can draw whatever inferences you want to come up with the conclusion you want to get. For instance, I could point to the high poverty rates and low incomes in "red" states to reach an opposite conclusion from what you did.

Successful people come in all different types -- the most common thing about the most successful people is that they are true to themselves and passionate about what they care about, regardless of what ideological box that falls into.

John said...

I know many people who are "true to themselves and passionate about what they care about", and yet they have little self discipline, organization, communication skills, academic capabilities and perserverance.

They spend a great deal of time dreaming and talking, yet there they are in the same place 10 years later. There has to be more than that.

How do the Life Lessons resonate with you?

John said...

I guess I would compare populations within each state.

There are far to many historical and geographical factors to compare MN to Mississippi...

John said...

Besides remember the other excellent Pelosi Video.

The "Conservative" idiot who defends his getting food stamps.

John said...

Okay if I am going to show foolish Conservatives, I need to also show foolish Liberals...

How do these 2 very different videos by the same interviewer fit in with the topic of the day?

Sean said...

Watching stupid people say stupid things doesn't provide any illumination at all. What do you think is going to be accomplished here? None of these: "self discipline, organization, communication skills, academic capabilities and perserverance" are inherent to any political ideology.

John said...

"None of these: ... are inherent to any political ideology."

Can you prove this belief?

By the way, I am talking about fiscal Conservatives, not the silly far Religious Right Conservatives. You know the folks who want fewer government crutches, less arbitrary wealth transfer, want to stand on their own 2 feet, etc, etc, etc.

And I am talking about fiscal Liberals, the ones who want lots of government programs, wealth transfer, regulations/oversight, etc, etc, etc.

Sean said...

Why are you asking me for proof when you have provided none of your own?

Anonymous said...

Sean: "None of these: "self discipline, organization, communication skills, academic capabilities and perserverance" are inherent to any political ideology."

John: "Can you prove this belief?"

Tell you what, I'll name some Liberals who exemplify these and you name some Conservatives. That should be proof enough.

Paul Wellstone
Al Franken
Bernie Sanders
Elizabeth Warren

And that's just a few recent examples of big name Liberals.

Joel

Laurie said...

here is a bit of data that may or may not be relevant:

Exit polls 2012

it seems the most highly educated people vote slightly more liberal and higher income people vote slightly more conservative. I think the least successful people neither vote or have an ideology. I think the point you are trying to make, John, fails, unless you come up with some sort of evidence.

Laurie said...

Here is another link, which you may read as support for your belief of the superior qualities of conservatives, John. I see the differences as more interesting rather than rating them as inferior/superior.

The Fascinating Differences Between The Conservative and Liberal Personality

John said...

Sean,
I was asking you for proof because you made a bold statement of fact.

"None of these: ... are inherent to any political ideology."

As for the importance of the comments from "stupid people" or probably I should call them very candid people, we need to accept the reality for who is "with us".

Now most of the Southerner Conservatives spoke of personal responsibility, working hard, limiting government handouts, etc.

And most of the Northern Liberals spoke of reliance, being owed and wanting to get free stuff / Obama bucks.

My question is if this is actually somewhat typical. And I find it hard to believe that people who are looking for government aid as a way of life will ever truly feel successful. Since I believe that a feeling of success come from working hard on something and earning a reward, be it money, love, self fulfillment, etc.

John said...

Joel,
I do not disagree that there are very successful people in both groups. Let's look at what I said again.

"Based on my own history I have found the fiscal Conservatives are more likely to sanction these valuable lessons and philosophies, where as more Liberals seem to want to wait around for or insist that someone help them "be successful". Now I know that this is not always the case, but it does seem to be true more often than not."

I mean the whole mantra of fiscal Conservatives is self reliance leads to rewards / success. The mantra of fiscal Liberals is that individual success for many requires governmental systems, programs and handouts.

John said...

Laurie,
Thanks for the links, they were interesting.

I guess I don't see this topic as an issue of superiority or inferiority, I simply see it as an issue of personal philosophies and consequences. Thus worth discussion.

John said...

Now for the important question. Have you read the Life's Greatest Lessons link. Do you think Hal has it figured out or is he full of BS?

John said...

And what about the Gifts.

John said...

1) the gift of work (he must learn to work for his money)
2) the gift of money (he must learn to handle his money wisely)
3) the gift of love (he must learn to love unconditionally)
4) the gift of friends (he must find friends who accept him without his money)
5) the gift of laughter (he must learn to see the joys of life)
6) the gift of giving (must learn to be generous, especially with money)
7) the gift of family (he must spend time with family)
8) the gift of problems (he must learn to face and solve problems for himself)
9) the gift of learning (he must learn to learn, he doesn't know everything)
10) the gift of dreams (he must have dreams, dreams for his life)
11) the gift of gratitude (he must learn to be thankful for what he has)
12) the gift of a day (What would you do with your last day on Earth)

Laurie said...

conservatives have bought into the self reliance myth to a greater degree than liberals. On the flip side society is more successful due to liberal values/ideology.

John said...

Another silly statement of "fact"...

"society is more successful due to liberal values/ideology"

PROVE IT...

Laurie said...

it is no more silly than your arguement that conservatives have more of the personal qualities that lead to success. Where is your proof?

Here are a few snippets from a blogger that I thought you might enjoy, John, which are somewhat related to my supposition that liberal qualities/values lead to a more successful government/society:


"In our two-party system, the GOP developed as a non-governing opposition party. While they did well in presidential elections, people only put them in power in Congress when things got unacceptably bad in Washington. As soon as they got control, power was taken away from them again because the results were miserable....

.....A trend of about eighty-five years is long enough to establish that the Republican Party doesn’t have responsible and popular legislating in its DNA. It is a protest party, and its only real utility is to act as a check on the power structure of Congress. When things get too ossified and corrupt, the GOP can come in and quickly remind people why they prefer Democrats in Congress.

What’s changed and kind of broken our politics is that the country has polarized in a way that enables the Republicans to win successive elections in the House. They are no more capable of legislating now than they were in the past. In fact, having been shut out of the legislating process for much of the last eighty-five years, they don’t believe in it."

the point the blogger was making is things look good for the dems at this pt in the cycle as the GOP is showing once again that it can't govern.

By Martin Longman Washington Monthly

Sean said...

"As for the importance of the comments from "stupid people" or probably I should call them very candid people, we need to accept the reality for who is "with us"."

Looking at cherry-picked videos of people saying stupid things is meaningless. How many people said perfectly rational things that didn't make the cut?

Sean said...

"I mean the whole mantra of fiscal Conservatives is self reliance leads to rewards / success. "

I think many fiscal Conservatives think they are self-reliant when in fact they rely on the very governmental systems they despise.

John said...

Sean,
Please remember that those videos were created by folks that land somewhere between moderate and liberal. They were not created by the Heritage folks, Rush or any the the other far right folks.

You are correct that Conservatives rely on government for roads, national defense, law and order, fire fighters, and many other things that they are happy to pay for. In fact I would go so far as to say that they love the core government systems. Stability is good for business and workers.

It is the arbitrary "wealth transfer" programs that give them heart burn. You know those where we take money from the hard working successful people and give it to the unsuccessful with little concern as to if they are working hard or resting in the safety hammock.

John said...

Here is an interesting article.

NYT Conservatives are Happier

By the way, what do you think of the lists? BS or good ideas to spread and adopt?

Sean said...

"You are correct that Conservatives rely on government for roads, national defense, law and order, fire fighters, and many other things that they are happy to pay for. In fact I would go so far as to say that they love the core government systems. Stability is good for business and workers."

This is a bunch of B.S. in a number of ways.

First, I can name lots of self-proclaimed fiscal conservatives who have relied on government for lots more than the "core government systems". Here are a few examples: Paul Ryan went to college on Social Security survivors benefits, but now wants to gut the program. My former state representative, Ernie Leidiger, had both his bachelors and masters degree paid for by the federal government, got a $500,000 SBA loan as part of the stimulus program which he defaulted on in less than a year without making a single payment towards it, then blamed President Obama for his business failing. State Senator Sean Nienow defaulted on a $800,000 SBA loan. All of these three (and many others) love to whack the poor while protecting their government gravy train.

Second, I would argue Republicans don't care for the core government systems beyond national defense. They consistently underfund all modes of transportation, cut corners when it comes to law and order, and try to "starve the beast" everywhere else.