Friday, April 8, 2016

MN Black Civil Rights Groups Collaborate

BMTN Groups Lay Out Ideas
MP MN Civil Rights Groups
Star Trib Unified Push

My MP Comments:
"There seemed to be a lot of "send money our way" and very little "how can we improve our society". It seems every time I hear from NAACP, BLM, etc it is always about we are not treated fairly, therefore we are rarely successful. And rarely about this is how our community is going to change in order for it to thrive. Is the media just not covering their self improvement efforts? 

I don't think they are ignoring the needs of others, but it does seem they could have a lot more political clout if they added members from the other groups. But maybe that is the role of the DFL party? And they could have better paying jobs if they supported deporting the illegal workers. :-) 

Finally, I am very curious how many of those ex-felons would vote? And not sure why they should be able to vote while on probation / parole."
On a barely related note: MLK Speech
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. "
I heard this on the radio the other day and it seemed relevant.  I was wondering what MLK would think of the character of many Black people / families today? All the children in single parent homes, the large amount of violent crime, etc. And yes I understand there is history that contributed to the current state, however since character is a choice I do wonder how it fits into the equation.


Teaching Values (source for my value statements)
Good Character


jerrye92002 said...

Forgive me for being Biblical, but "first remove the log from thine own eye..."
And before you ask for sources, it's Matthew 7:3-5

I wonder how much MORE good these folks could do if they worked to improve their own communities-- stop the rash of unwed fathers, demand good schools and that their kids do well in them (at the risk of "acting white"), start small businesses or attract small businesses that employ people. Start up job training and placement centers and work against the "thug life"/gangster culture. Sure, it would take courage and hard work, but I don't see where just blaming racial bias, real or imagined, is getting them anywhere.

Sean said...

Should we tie rural broadband funding to programs for meth use? Or are we only shaming black people again?

jerrye92002 said...

Not sure I see the connection in the former. And if people feel ashamed of their behavior, aren't they more likely to change it? It is a shame that this divide occurs largely across racial lines, but these groups are asking for it to be solved along racial lines, and this is how it most likely gets done.

Sean said...

The point is simple. There are lots of folks who seek government funding for one priority or the other. But it's primarily black people who get lectured about their behavior. It's not as if there aren't "cultural" issues in rural Minnesota, too. For instance, the counties with the highest teen pregnancy rates are outstate, not metro.

jerrye92002 said...

OK, but why do you think "lecturing" does any good? (Or why do you think /I/ would think that?) What I would propose is that "opportunities" be offered that would make it easier to order their lives the "right" way rather than the wrong way. And then add a little "stick" in the form of reducing all those things that just subsidize the bad behaviors, like additional welfare for children born to welfare mothers (after the opportunities are available, of course).

Another example: we should insist that kids regardless of color follow the discipline standards of the school they are in, and that the school must find a way to bring every kid as close as possible up to some level of achievement (giving the school the choice of how to do that, the funds they claim to need to do it, and carrots and sticks as needed).

John said...

I see no other group of people with their hands out like this... Their whole logic is that they are inferior and need help because of who / what they are...

"Our children are failing in school and work preparation"... Where are the Mother and Father of these children? This should be one of their primary responsibilities.

"Our people have been arrested and convicted while committing crimes. We need the law changed so they don't get arrested and can vote sooner if they do." Stop committing felonies.

"Our people can not convince banks that our businesses are going to be profitable." So let's have the state tax payers carry the higher than normal risk.

Look at these quotes from the piece.

"Not only do we have outrageous equity and disparity gaps …"

"African American unemployment is at 13.6 percent compared to the state average of 3.7 percent"

"But we know that largely communities of color, and particularly African American communities, lack access to capital."

"Mark Dayton pledged $100 million to address Minnesota’s racial disparities earlier last month, but many black community leaders believe lawmakers have done too little to tackle the problem."

"Minnesota bans felons from voting until they’ve completed parole or probation. But critics of the law say those periods are often too long and disproportionately disenfranchise people of color, who are often incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses."

"“One in six black men in Minnesota can’t vote,” she said. “That’s because we have a broken criminal justice system.”"

"On top of felon voting, he said, the coalition is also pushing for a statewide grand jury ban for police involved criminal proceedings, a ban of private prisons, lowering sentencing guidelines on nonviolent drug offenses and establishing strong statewide body camera policies that enforces police accountability."

"Somali-Minnesotans have the highest rate of poverty among black Minnesotans, he said, so their main concern is providing job training and youth development and education."

John said...

By the way the first 3 in quotes statements was me paraphrasing...

John said...

This is why I wonder if this is a racial or a character question?

I just don't understand why it is so hard for them to take personal responsibility for:
- having or not having households with 2 responsible parents in it.
- having only the number of children they can afford to house, feed, clothe, raise, etc well.
- ensuring their children learn and succeed in K - 12
- ensuring they and their children are law abiding and avoid drugs

All of which would improve their academic and financial standing, which would encourage lenders to borrow to them.

Now the war on poverty and the academic / financial gap have been going on for ~50 years. Just throwing more money at it does not seem to getting the results they or we want.

Sean said...

"I just don't understand why it is so hard for them to take personal responsibility for:
- having or not having households with 2 responsible parents in it.
- having only the number of children they can afford to house, feed, clothe, raise, etc well.
- ensuring their children learn and succeed in K - 12
- ensuring they and their children are law abiding and avoid drugs"

There are areas of white rural Minnesota that have these very problems as well. As I noted above, the areas in this state with the highest rates of teen pregnancy and out-of-wedlock childbirth are rural.

Where is your shaming for them? When Republicans propose spending for outstate Minnesota (things like Pawlenty's JOBZ program or various smaller initiatives from the current House majority), where are your moral scolds telling white rural Minnesotans to fix their culture instead of "just throwing more money at the problem"?

John said...

The easy answer for you is to attack me for "shaming" these folks. However I am just dealing with facts and data. This is an interesting site.

MN Single Parent Households by County
MN Graduates in 4 Years
MN Violent Crime by County

John said...

And please provide some facts and data of your own.

Sean said...

"The easy answer for you is to attack me for "shaming" these folks. However I am just dealing with facts and data. "

The "facts and data" show that there are rural areas that fare just as poorly (and often worse) than the metro on these issues. I just want you to distribute your shaming equitably.

Sean said...

And if you want to appropriate Martin Luther King in your effort to shame black communities, you ought to read up on what Dr. King was working on at the time of his death -- the Poor People's Campaign -- which had five main planks:

"A meaningful job at a living wage"
"A secure and adequate income" for all those unable to find or do a job
"Access to land" for economic uses
"Access to capital" for poor people and minorities to promote their own businesses
Ability for ordinary people to "play a truly significant role" in the government

Sound familiar?

John said...

Did you even look at the links? The metro counties scored worse in most cases.

As for "teen pregnancy and out-of-wedlock childbirth", it would be interesting to see how abortions compared... See Table 7, but it is not normalized and I am not doing the math.

Please provide your own to explain where are "rural areas that fare just as poorly (and often worse) than the metro". And since these folks and yourself want to make this a race issue. Please normalize the data based on race.

My point is that rural MN has a lot of Hispanics, Native Americans, Muslims and even some African Americans in their communities.

And the stats for Hennepin county are very misleading due to the massive variations within the county. (ie City vs Burbs)

John said...

Here is an abortion rate chart... It looks like one would need to do some serious review before one could say there are more teen pregnancies in rural counties. Because it appears there are a lot more abortions where they are more readily available.

John said...

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Now do you think these are good or acceptable statistics?
72 Percent Born Out of Wedlock
WT 54% of the Children with only a Mother

And please note that there are plenty of other groups that have a similar problem but not so severe.

John said...

So what do you think MLK would have to say about this destruction of the Black family?

Something that is clearly in the direct control of the people making and keeping babies. And the adults who choose to make a baby and not take responsibility for it. (ie stay together, provide child support, etc)

Maybe we need to return a bit to the old days where being a Single Mother or a Dead Beat Father was not socially acceptable, because the current belief and support systems are definitely not encouraging the correct behavior or helping the kids to be successful.

Or do you think the following is good for the nation's children no matter their color???

"Though income is the primary predictor, the lack of live-in fathers also is overwhelmingly a black problem, regardless of poverty status, census data show. Among blacks, nearly 5 million children, or 54 percent, live with only their mother. Twelve percent of black families below the poverty line have two parents present, compared with 41 percent of impoverished Hispanic families and 32 percent of poor white families.

The schism is most apparent in the District, which has a higher portion of two-parent families among whites, at 85 percent, and a lower share among blacks, at 25 percent, than any state.

In all but 11 states, most black children do not live with both parents. In every state, 7 in 10 white children do. In all states but Rhode Island and Massachusetts, most Hispanic children do. In Wisconsin, 77 percent of white children and 61 percent of Hispanics live with both parents, compared with more than 25 percent of black children."

Laurie said...

I would agree with you more, John, if you attributed racial disparities to both racism and a need for greater personal responsibility.

(I had a much longer comment that I lost that I don't want to retype, maybe later.)

jerrye92002 said...

First, let's get past this "shaming" notion as a racial issue. It is no more a racial issue than is the crime, poverty and family destruction that such "social norming" once addressed effectively. One only need to look at the statistics to say that this problem disproportionately affects urban black populations and, if there is a "fix" for it, that they would benefit disproportionately and that is a GOOD THING (r).

And John, you keep waltzing around the fact that we have these nonproductive behaviors because they have been massively subsidized by liberal do-gooders throwing money at problems rather than at solutions. You get more of what you pay for.

My Dad always told a story: He worked in a poor part of town, not far from the local "skid row," and it was not uncommon to encounter a panhandler between work and the lunch counter. Occasionally one would approach and "please, sir, I haven't eaten in three days, could you give me a little money so I can eat?" Dad's reply every time was, "come on, the diner is right there, and I'll buy you all you can eat." Every time, the answer was something like, "Oh, don't bother, if you just give me the money I can get it myself." The obvious conclusion was the guy didn't really want to eat. The follow up lesson was, "and you know what would happen if I gave him a dollar, don't you? The next day there would be TWO panhandlers on that corner."

"The Lord helps them who help themselves" And the government just hands everybody a check.

jerrye92002 said...

"I would agree with you more, John, if you attributed racial disparities to both racism and a need for greater personal responsibility."

Laurie, I was going to dismiss your comment because I do not believe that racism is a serious problem today, and it certainly is not the cause of the family breakdown, rampant crime, unwed motherhood, or even poverty afflicting the "black community." If it were MORE of a true "community" things would be better, IMHO.

But then I took a second look and you are correct, in one way. Racism WAS indeed a factor that held black people in poverty for most of a century after Emancipation. But the black family stayed largely intact. Then, in the 60s, Civil rights laws were passed and economic mobility became more possible. And welfare became an entitlement with almost no strings, except that the family couldn't be together. And here we are.

Without past racism, poverty would not be so disproportionately racial, but we cannot fix that. What we CAN do is to fix our "solutions" to poverty so they do not continue and deepen that disproportionate effect.

John said...

I have no doubt that racism still exists in our society. There are idiots in all groups of citizens. Just like the BLM folks who are incredibly and vocally biased against the police officers. Just like some poor folks pre-judge the successful folk, and vice versa.

My point is that Liberals and some minorities continue to use it as a continued excuse for that society's failure. They turn themselves into helpless victims who need handouts.

I found this link surprising given the source.

jerrye92002 said...

Big problem is that public policy generally alters the incentives so that irresponsibility is rewarded and responsibility is punished.

Laurie said...

When I bring up racism as a cause of racial disparities I am mostly referring to systemic or institutional racism I have only a very basic understanding of this myself, but do believe it is an important factor in the ongoing racial disparites.

I think society trying to reduce racial disparities should focus on both reducing institutional racism / increasing opportunities and encouraging a higher level of personal responsibility. The encouragement of a higher level of personal responsibility would probably be received better if it came from within the black community.

John said...

"institutional racism occurs when a certain group is targeted and discriminated against based upon race."

Laurie, How do you tell the difference between institutional racism and good common sense? My point is that the world is full of probability. That probability is usually based on on past performance, common circumstances, etc.

As Jesse Jackson noted, he is more nervous if he meets a young Black man on the street at night than a young White man. My point is that this is not necessarily racism, this may be good common sense based on crime stats. Just as you would be more nervous if you met a White Meth head looking guy on a dark street than if you met a work causal dressed White man...

Who in that community is "encouraging a higher level of personal responsibility"?

Why does it seem that most of that community is not listening?

Don Lemon tries to tell people of his race be take personal responsibility... And they try to get him fired...

Laurie said...

it is really very easy to see evidence of systemic racism in the criminal justice system for anyone open to seeing it.


No, Justice is Not Colorblind

I think with more effort you could grasp the concept of institutional racism.

John said...

This an interesting statement and good time to review the concept of causation vs correlation.

"While people of color represent minorities of the country’s overall population, they are a strong majority in U.S. prisons."

The theory by the US News writer and apparently yourself is that Race is what is causing the officers, prosecutors, judges, etc to stop, arrest and prosecute Black people at a higher rate.

As I noted above, I agree there are likely some racist personnel in the system... However I don't think this is the primary causal factor. As we have discussed before, I lay the problems at the feet of irresponsible societal adults/parents.

Just imagine 54% of Black households only having a Mother to try to make money and care for the children? And because of this they have little money, live in poor high risk neighborhoods and the kids/teens are left alone often. This seems like a recipe for disaster. Apparently they understood this back when the Bible was written.

Proverbs 16:27-29
27 Idle hands are the devil’s workshop; idle lips are his mouthpiece.
28 An evil man sows strife; gossip separates the best of friends.
29 Wickedness loves company—and leads others into sin.

John said...

Now as for police stopping more people in high crime neighbors and people with old beat up cars. This has nothing it has nothing to with race and everything to with reality:

- there are far more police in high risk neighborhoods and apparently the "harmless criminals" are not as smart as their suburban peers. (ie walking around with drugs on your body when surrounded by police officers is NOT TOO BRIGHT...)

- who is more likely to have lights out on their car, or to not be carrying insurance? The newer car of the Wayzata kid or the old camry of the N Mpls kid.

- is there a white teen gang out there? I ask because I watched some of "Grid Iron Gang" on Netflix tonight and it showed the stress that these societal units cause for Black youth. Now I know movies are not real, but think of every police show you have watched. There are often Black, Hispanic or Chinese gangs that are creating havoc and pulling kids into a cycle of violence. How many times have you heard of the White Suburban Teen Gang?

John said...

Now as we have discussed before:

Teen 1 gets arrested and he has 2 caring parents at home. And they have some extra money because there are 2 of them working to pay the family bills.

Teen 2 gets arrested and he has 1 caring parent at home. She is broke, exhausted and at her wits end.

Who do you think will have a lawyer and be able to convince the judge that the child has a support system that can help straighten him out?

John said...

Now I haven't even touched on all the benefits of good grades, communication skills, positive attitude, etc.

Who do you think will be able to talk a police officer out of giving them a ticket?
Teen 1 who treats the officer with respect and some fear, communicates well, smiles, explains the situation well, etc?

Or Teen 2 who thinks police are racist pigs and feels the need to share that with the officer?

None of the causal factors I have noted above are Racial bias, they are just reality.

Laurie said...

while this is clearly pointless here is one more attmept to help you understand Institutional Racism

This seems to be another area in which your well set views blind you reality.

John said...

So we are back to how does a family of any race succeed in America. They stay married and raise their child(ren) to know Lifes Greatest Lessons. Or maybe The Ultimate Gift

Until these societies can fix their family units, I am not sure what can be done to help...

Based on my experience, being a good Spouse / Parent requires a lot of patience, diligence, thought, giving, listening, communication and much more. None of this can be bought by sending people a check, they need to make a personal choice to make personal sacrifices for their Spouse or Child(ren).

Ironically, I wonder if fewer citizens participating in organized religion is another primary causal factor for the problems we are discussing. Whether you believe totally or not, most of those institutions teach excellent values.

John said...

You are correct, it is unlikely either of us will change our views.

You seem to want to think the worst of White people instead of facing the reality that poor Parenting makes more challenging and less well behaved students and young adults.

Therefore they get in trouble more often and often have attitude problems. Based on my white friends who face this challenge, it has more to do with poorly educated Parents who were low income than with race.

Worse yet those "poorly raised children" draw a lot of negative attention to their peer group...

jerrye92002 said...

Laurie, once again you fail to prove that correlation=causation. Yes, more black men are in prison than are white men. How about this. I believe that there is a direct causal link between unwed motherhood of black children and their subsequent incarceration. Doesn't that make more sense, yet has nothing to do with race? (unless you want to say unwed motherhood is caused by "institutional racism"?

A story: I participated in a Star Tribune roundtable on race. I explained to the well-dressed black couple in the group that I thought racism and discrimination were two entirely different things, and what mattered was experience. Racism is prejudice, where I don't care who you are, if you are not of my race you are inferior/worse/etc.. Discrimination is based on experience. I said, suppose my only experience with a black man in a broad-brimmed hat was that he shot at me? What would be my natural and perfectly reasonable reaction to the next black man in a broad-brimmed hat that I see? Now, after meeting a dozen or so of them and finding them harmless and charming, I would change my attitude. It's not racist to make judgments based on experience, it's a survival skill or at most a matter of judgment based on available information, NOT prejudgment or racism.

That is what the police and courts are doing, making judgments based on experience. If vicious gangs of fatherless white youth were dealing drugs, doing drive-by shootings and terrorizing whole suburban neighborhoods I am sure the arrest and incarceration rates would reflect that FACT. What these BLM-like groups are suggesting is that drug dealers, killers, baby daddies and ne'er-do-wells must be excused because they are black and somehow not responsible for themselves; that somehow "racism" made them do it. High time that we stop accepting such excuses.

Laurie said...

this may be my last comment on the topic.

from my link:

People of color are disproportionately targeted by police.

• Among persons over age 24, Blacks (11.2%) were significantly more likely to be pulled over while driving than
Whites (8.9%)

• Among drivers stopped for speeding, Blacks (75.7%) and Hispanics (79.4%) were more likely than Whites
(66.6%) to be ticketed

• Police were more likely to conduct a search of the vehicle and/or driver in traffic stops involving Black male
drivers (15.9%) or Hispanic male drivers (14.2%), compared to White male drivers (7.9%)

People of color are disproportionately arrested.

• Blacks (5.2%) and Hispanics (4.2%) stopped by police while driving are more likely than Whites (2.6%) to be arrested

• In other words, Blacks composed 11.6% of drivers stopped by police, but represented 19.9% of the drivers arrested. Hispanics were 8.4% of drivers stopped by police, but 11.7% of those arrested. Whites, on the other hand, are 77% of stopped drivers but only 66.3% of drivers arrested

I can guess your response - all of these higher rates are fair and due to the way the black people are dressed and the noncompliant / disrespectful attitude they display as they interact with police and judges.

My link also has data of how that blacks are disproportionally arrested and convicted for drugs too, but you just continue to look away, no racism to be seen as everything can be expalined away by the fact that a high rate of black children are raised by single mothers.

John said...

"all of these higher rates are fair and due to the way the black people are dressed and the noncompliant / disrespectful attitude they display as they interact with police and judges."

That would be fibbing since I have already said that some true racism exists and that there are many other causes.

jerrye92002 said...

Laurie, why are those explanations NOT sufficient, in your mind? First of all, these differences (e.g. 11.2 vs 8.9%), while significant, are not that large in the scheme of things. Assuming an equal opportunity for any driver to be pulled over (ignoring that police concentrate in black neighborhoods because of crime rates), there is only a 25% difference that could /possibly/ be explained by racism alone. And the other reasons may account for at least that much or even more.

As for single mothers being the cause, they are significantly different by race.
"...the U.S. had 25.8 percent of children being raised by a single parent, compared with an average of 14.9 percent across the other countries. In the African American community, 72 percent of Black children are raised in a single parent household."

That's a 179% difference, NOT caused by racism.

And here's a race-neutral look:
"when compared to intact married families, children from single parent homes are: More than twice as likely to be arrested for a juvenile crime. Twice as likely to receive treatment for behavioral and emotional problems. Approximately twice as likely to be expelled or suspended from school. A third more likely to drop out of high school. Furthermore, girls from single parent homes are more than twice as likely to have a child without getting married. And by the time children from single parent homes reach age 30 — when adjusted for families of the same race and similar incomes — they are three times more likely to end up in jail."

John said...

If Teen 1 and Teen 2 noted above are both Black, with Black parent(s). And if Teen 1 gets a lesser sentence because of his appropriate attitude and support system.

Is this an example of Racism from your perspective?

If a business like Holiday gas stations decides to only have stations in the suburbs because they deem the crime rate in downtown to be too high, and they are concerned for the safety of their employees and property.

Is this an example of Racism from your perspective?