Eric has posted his view on this... Some I agree with, some I think is silly... (ie Leadership by Committee)
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Thoughts?
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About Me
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- I am married and we have 3 adult daughters and a dog. We live in Plymouth MN. My interests are learning, communicating, home improvement projects, motorcycling, boating, and other outside activities. Thank you for reading my blog and have a great day !!!
28 comments:
From MP. My first comment that received several responses. And my response.
"So in your view the USA and England should have turned their backs on the requests by the majority of Iraqis to oust Saddam? (ie Shiites and Kurds)
Which Option did you support?
1 Maintain No Fly Zone indefinitely
2 Walk away and let Saddam take vengeance on Shiites and Kurds
3 Invade, oust Saddam and give Iraqis a chance at self rule
Since Russia would block any declaration to oust Assad and they are now intentionally bombing hospitals in the rebel areas. What do you think should be done?" G2A
"So please help me understand who was convicted of violating this "international law". Seems a question of opinion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_of_the_2003_invasion_of_Iraq
As for some of the comments below. The USA requires 2 criteria before becoming involved.
1. An American interest is at stake. (defense, allies defense, etc)
2. Someone really needs our help.
For better or worse the African conflicts do not meet both.
Half the country was being protected under the No Fly Zone and the Shiites /Kurds had their own Leaders / Supporters. Those Leaders and Supporters wanted Saddam out. So yes, there was no official election, but I am pretty sure most Iraqis wanted Saddam gone. Though they may have changed their minds if they had known the consequences of their choice.
Finally. Again... What should we do in Syria? Close our eyes and plug our ears and let Assad and Russia keep bombing hospitals?" G2A
Wiki Legitimacy
What is the concept or rule to which America is an exception?
--Hiram
I like Jim's Link
Harvard Politics Understanding American Exceptionalism
One way in which I find the USA to be EXCEPTIONAL is the way in which we have shown restraint as we grew.
Can you think of another Super Power over the world's history that has pretty much stuck to it's own borders for the last 100+ years. And other than the Native American history, the USA has either paid for most of the land or was asked by people to let them join the USA.
I mean taking over Canada and Mexico would have been simple.
We had complete control of Japan and what did we do?
We spent money to help them rebuild.
Truly exceptional !!!
Even Iraq...
The vast majority of Iraqi's were being controlled by the minority and a violent dictator. We spend American lives and money to Free them, Help them establish self rule and leave...
Amazing !!!
MP comments
"Syria: Since the past and consequences is uncertain, what do you want to do about Syria and Russia dropping bombs on hospitals?
What have we learned and what should we do today?" G2A
"Certainly not ...repeat and compound the mistakes of the past with a similar "ready, fire, aim" response. I'm more than happy to leave the details of what needs to be a diplomatic solution to the experts in this Administration. What we have learned, if we needed to learn it, is that despotic regimes will do anything to hang onto power including oppressing, torturing and attacking their own people; something that is as true when US-backed governments do it as it is in Syria.
Now, do you care to answer my question or do you concede that US intervention since 2003 has made the Middle East worse off, not better, and that any pretense of concern for oppressed peoples that may have been cited as justification for that intervention is exactly that, mere pretense?" Doug
"So though bullies are killing children and emergency personnel that come to save them. Did you know they have an interesting technique to maximize the number of casualties? Apparently the planes drop half their bombs, and then they come back and drop the other half after the help has arrived. Your answer is leave the details to others. It is an interesting opinion. It is like watching two young bullies beat another child while standing in the crowd asking for others to help before intervening.
Please remember that the path to hell is paved with good intentions... Just as welfare sincerely meant to help people has created many more dependent poor people, the invasion sincerely meant to free the Iraqis from oppression did create more chaos. They just weren't prepared for the freedom and Obama took the training wheels of way too soon.
Here is an interesting more pragmatic perspective from an Iraqi
Atlantic What do Iraqis think
" G2A
Doug got me thinking...
Let's say that the USA was being harshly controlled by a violent Dictator with the backing of ~10% of the citizens. Friends would occasionally disappear to be tortured and/or killed.
Would we want a foreign country to remove the Dictator and his military, help provide security for years, invest billions of dollars in our country, sacrifice 1000's of their citizens, help us develop a new government and leave with no strings attached?
Or would we want them to stand by watching?
Even if we did have civil war after we were freed and many people died. Would we prefer the freedom or the Dictator?
I am thinking we would prefer to die free rather than live as powerless pawns. On second thought I am pretty sure of it. Something about "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death"...
Can you think of another Super Power over the world's history that has pretty much stuck to it's own borders for the last 100+ years.
So we are exceptional because we are a super power, which hasn't invaded Canada or Mexico, at least not since our 19th century expansionary period? It seems to me that not expanding national borders has been pretty much the norm for decades now. Britain hasn't invaded France recently, and like the US. gave up it's overseas empire, mostly peacefully in the 20th century. France too, has been mostly content with it's borders for a century or so. The border between Norway and Sweden remains largely undefended, I hear.
We had complete control of a portion of Germany, after the war. But so did France, Britain and the Soviet Union, yet all withdrew. Was our withdrawal somehow exceptional? Did we leave candy bars behind?
On one level, America's exceptionalism is easy to spot. Every country is different. But my question remains. How is America exceptional in a way that seems so important to so many politicians today?
==Hiram
If you don't see it, I am concerned that it is unlikely that I can help you see it.
Did you read the Harvard Politics piece?
Also, I am reading a book from one of my favorite author groups. It explains the Inward vs Outward Mindset. I think the USA over the centuries has shown an outward mindset which seems to be pretty rare. Most of the time we have been a force for good and human rights. Though of course many citizens would prefer if we had more of an Inward Mindset and denied the suffering of those in other countries.
I guess myself and many other Americans beieve theat with Great Power comes Great Responsibility.
Oh by the way, yes we have left many lives and Billions of dollars (ie candy bars) behind as we helped Germany, Japan, Iraq, Korea, Afghanistan and others rebuild and improve their lives.
Did you read the Harvard Politics piece?
Yes.
"But America consistently and dramatically resists comparison to any other nation."
Isn't this sort of circular reasoning? We say we are exceptional because we refuse comparison?
And isn't the author making the argument that "exceptionalism" is just a matter of perception. After all, it's perfectly possible to compare America to other countries, it's just that many of us refuse to do it. Other other countries lacking in individual who refuse to engage in comparisons? Are we exceptional in that regard?
--Hiram
Having spent most of my adult life travelling to different countries. I have found that most of the people are very similar, it is the countries/cultures that vary. And based on that background I think America is exceptional.
Unfortunately I don't think anything I can say would convince you.
Now back to my questions.
- What do the armchair quarterbacks want to do about Syria and Russia bombing hospitals?
- If a self absorbed brutal dictator ruled America, would we want a benevolent country to free us from his tyranny?
"What do the armchair quarterbacks want to do about Syria and Russia bombing hospitals?"
Maybe you should tell us what *you* would do about it, if you're unsatisfied with "the armchair QBs".
I think America is exceptional.
To what rule is America the exception?
--Hiram
Sean,
I am thinking I would have American and/or UN forces fortify and protect the hospitals. Hopefully Syria, Russia and Iran would be smart enough to avoid them then. If not they give us reason to escalate.
Now we have Nepalm...
Hiram,
Why do you think the USA is average, normal and/or not exceptional?
Why do you think the USA is average, normal and/or not exceptional?
I didn't say any of those things. All I am asking is that if America is exceptional, to what is it an exception?
==Hiram
Hiram,
I have given you many answers and yet you choose to not accept them as valid. As I said before, I am not sure how to help you. Maybe this TV Advertisement Can...
I suppose you have. I just haven't found them convincing. We haven't invaded our neighbors a lot recently, but not many countries do, these days. We have invaded the middle east a lot recently. That' makes us exceptional, I suppose.
' I think the USA over the centuries has shown an outward mindset which seems to be pretty rare. "
Actually, for most of our history, protected as we are by two oceans, we have been fairly isolationist. Even today, we seem remarkably self absorbed. Few Americans are fluent in languages other than their own, yet as any traveler abroad immediately notices, people in other countries are often amazingly fluent in English.
Could our exceptionalism consist of the lack of an outward mindset?
--Hiram
"invaded the Middle East" If we are invading, we have to be the most generous and least self centered invaders in the history of the world.
"Oh you are being bullied by a Dictator? We will spend our money and lives to help you, then we will help you to setup a new self governing body and support you with more funding / experts, and then we will leave your country."
Definition: "Invaded: to enter for conquest or plunder"
Now I think you are being self centered... The business / travel world does not speak English because of the USA, it and we speak it because of the British empire. People from other countries are highly motivated to learn English if they want to travel or do international business, we thankfully do not have that problem.
One of my French company customers has facilities in South Korea and China, therefore they hold their meetings in English. This has nothing to do with America...
As you say, we are blessed to be far away from all the chaos of Europe and Asia. Therefore we could stay here, setup a great defense and live peacefully in our own bubble as many Liberals seem to prefer. Fortunately enough US citizens do focus outward and strive to help people in other parts of the world.
we could stay here, setup a great defense and live peacefully in our own bubble as many Liberals seem to prefer.
That has been the usual choice in our history. Is it that which makes us exceptional?
--Hiram
Please provide some rationale for your questionable belief.
Here are some interesting sites
US Aid Projects
How Much
Apparently about 1% of our budget ($40 Billion/yr) goes to foreign aid, not to mention the large amount from personal donations and our massive donation as the "World Police" function.
I don't think I have expressed a view, just asked a question. America is different from a lot of countries, but is that what we mean by "exceptional"? Since all countries are different from each other, are all countries "exceptional"?
I like to watch TV police procedurals from different countries. In many ways, the way they present everyday life is very similar to our own. I just finished watching a Finnish show, "Easy Living", which had scenes in a mall which looked pretty much the same as Ridgedale. Is Finland a country to which we are an exception?
Is it a good thing or a bad thing to be exceptional? Do rules apply or not apply to exceptional countries? Do exceptional countries have rights in international law or politics other countries do not have?
--Hiram
I have found that most of the people are very similar, it is the countries/cultures that vary. And based on that background I think America is exceptional.
Are Americans different from other folks in ways besides their culture? Do other countries all have the same culture from which America is distinct?
As I said, I watched a Finnish TV show. The Finnish language, unlike just about every other European language, is not of Indo European origin. On the other hand, the country looks pretty much like every other country. Is this what is meant by "exceptional"?
--Hiram
Since you don't my view / opinion / answers, please express yours.
My view is that I don't know what rule is meant by people who say America is an exception to it. I also don't have very much of a feel for the distinction between being exceptional, and just being merely different. And given that I don't know those things, I don't know what rights and duties flow from being "exceptional". I don't, among other things, know whether being "exceptional" is a good thing, a bad thing, or some combination of both.
--Hiram
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