Moose posted the following comment and more over on The System is Working
This was after I had noted:
According to this UN Report, the USA is #10 on it's Human Development Indices list (page 22). And that isn't even considering the amount of effort and money the USA invests around the world to maintain peace, support freedom, etc.
The UN Report describes many characteristics of a "Civilized Society", many seem to make sense. Though I may need to review it later in more detail.
The one question that I have rolling around in my head is how would a civilized society address free loaders? Those people who choose not to learn, work, etc... Or those who choose to have more children than they can raise responsibly...
"Civilization: a relatively high level of cultural and technological development
specifically : the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained
That we've monetized health care does not make us a more civil people. Thank you."
This was after I had noted:
"How is this different than in the USA? Everyone can go to the ER...I am always puzzled when Liberals are critical of how great things are in the USA. I mean it just seems to me that they have an idealistic dream that they want to attain no matter the other consequences.
We spend more than a trillion dollars per year to care for our poor, young and/or elderly...
•Medicare spending grew 3.6% to $672.1 billion in 2016, or 20 percent of total NHE.
•Medicaid spending grew 3.9% to $565.5 billion in 2016, or 17 percent of total NHE.
And yet the Far Left still sees this inadequate."
According to this UN Report, the USA is #10 on it's Human Development Indices list (page 22). And that isn't even considering the amount of effort and money the USA invests around the world to maintain peace, support freedom, etc.
The UN Report describes many characteristics of a "Civilized Society", many seem to make sense. Though I may need to review it later in more detail.
The one question that I have rolling around in my head is how would a civilized society address free loaders? Those people who choose not to learn, work, etc... Or those who choose to have more children than they can raise responsibly...
- Does a civilized society mean that these folks are allowed to live on the efforts of others?
- Does a civilized society mean that everyone must learn, work, contribute and make good life choices?
32 comments:
I am always puzzled when Liberals are critical of how great things are in the USA.
Things are incredibly great in this country, amazingly so. But that doesn't mean they can't be improved. We are the wealthiest nation the world has ever seen which is now passing the biggest tax cuts in history. For you logic fans, it must necessarily follow that we can afford things like health care. Trump has present a vision of America that in many ways very bleak, one that is pretty alien to me.
--Hiram
We who have learned, worked and made good choices can afford healthcare... And that healthcare is some of the best in the world.
And since our society is civilized we do care for the young, old and disabled...
The question is what to do with those healthy people of working age who did not learn, don't like to work and/or make bad choices.
Is robbing from Peter "piggy bank" to pay Paul's "bills" a hall mark of:
- civilized society?
- uncivilized society?
As usual, you've completely mischaracterized what I wrote.
I mention that the rest of the civilized world includes national (social) healthcare in the "mainstream" of ideology.
You tell me that I'm calling most of the world uncivilized.
I use remote tribes as an example of peoples who provide healthcare to their members (social healthcare), calling them civilized.
You make it about money.
I call that uncivilized.
You prove me correct with your definition of civilization.
And now this post about freeloading, as if it's related to my point.
Moose
"The question is what to do with those healthy people of working age who did not learn, don't like to work and/or make bad choices."
Clearly, the answer is that they are not worthy of healthcare. Which means that we are uncivilized.
Moose
"Is robbing from Peter "piggy bank" to pay Paul's "bills" a hall mark of:
- civilized society?
- uncivilized society?"
Is Peter hoarding more than he needs while Paul starves outside his door a hallmark of:
-civilized society?
-uncivilized society?
Moose
Moose,
Whenever you imply that people are entitled to something, the topic of free loading will arise. I mean some third party will be forced to provide or pay for that entitlement.
As for remote tribes caring for their friends and neighbors, that is simply charity. People decide to help that person... That sick person is not entitled to the care, and no one is forced to provide or pay for the that service. Same as how charity works in the USA.
Please remember that remote tribes have also been known to send the old and disabled to their death for the good of the healthy and capable. Were they savages or pragmatic?
"Healthy people of working age who did not learn, don't like to work and/or make bad choices" certainly do have access to healthcare in the USA. We have charities, emergency rooms, and Medicaid for some." Why again would we need more?
When I hear about "Peter hoarding", I always wonder where you think he keeps that wealth? Maybe you envision a huge vault where Scrooge McDuck takes his swim.
The reality is pretty much everyone's wealth is invested in our society. Very little is sitting in gold under the bed...
Now if Paul is healthy and of working age in this economy... Why again is he starving outside Peter's door?
Why isn't he at the library learning, at a job working, etc?
Would a civil society allow Paul to remain a beggar and/or criminal?
Or would it demand that he become a responsible and contributing citizen of their society?
I mean successful societies require that all healthy citizens fulfill their responsibilities. That is how the society maintains a good standard of living for it's citizens, and has enough left over to care for the young, old and disabled.
Now would a civilized society enable and allow this kind of behavior?
Again...we are the wealthiest nation in the history of the world. There are nations much less well off than us who provide for their people.
Your thoughts on the matter are ludicrous.
Moose
Moose,
Why do you think wealthy people and nations are wealthy?
Why do you think poor people and nations are poor?
What should we learn from that?
Moose,
A tweak...
Why do you think wealthy/stable people and nations are wealthy/stable?
Why do you think poor/unstable people and nations are poor/unstable?
What should we learn from that?
Do you get a royalty every time you link to that video? Seriously, enough already.
But it is such a great video... I wish she would do more of them.
I mean she is as unbiased as they get.
Seeing is believing, even though some see and still deny.
Don't tell you are giving up on this one so soon...
You'd rather believe a video or a cartoon or a novel than actual data.
What "actual data" can one trust?
Apparently the folks in the video are receiving benefits, otherwise they would not be standing in line.
So a bureaucrat must be entering data on them that allows them to qualify...
Is that the data you think we should use?
I think I have a summary statement for the Liberal belief of a civilized society...
"A civilized society is one that forces Peter to help Paul...
While not forcing Paul to help Paul."
Does that sound about right?
You should be a comedian.
Moose
"What "actual data" can one trust?"
There's lots of government and academic data on welfare programs. But you'd rather rely on a few anecdotes in a video.
Moose,
What changes would you require of Paul or Paulina for receiving free food, housing, healthcare, education, etc from our society?
Sean,
As I noted... The government data is suspect because it is entered by the same welfare agents who would give those health people benefits.
Also, many people who want benefits may be willing to exaggerate their circumstances or be out right fraudulent.
Have you ever driven by Mary's Place or the Salvation Army during hand out time... It would be interesting to have A. Pelosi interview some of those healthy folks.
"As I noted... The government data is suspect because it is entered by the same welfare agents who would give those health people benefits."
See you in Galt's Gulch.
That is the coolest book... Atlas Shrugged
But seriously... How do you think the healthy capable people in the A Pelosi video qualified for free stuff without the assistance of kind caring bureaucrats?
And how do you think that kind caring bureaucrat documented the transaction?
Do you think they wrote? "He was looking for free stuff so I gave it to him?"
Or maybe...
"He is unemployed because he is interested in a career, not a job?"
or
"He deserves the money because his ancestors were slaves?"
The lines in that video are so classic.
Of course her Mississippi video also shows some real interesting folks also.
"What changes would you require of Paul or Paulina for receiving free food, housing, healthcare, education, etc from our society?"
I'll stick to the topic of healthcare, since that is what the topic originally was. And I never said it was free. Only that it is a right. Therefore, the only thing required of Paul or Paulina is that they be human.
Moose
So Paul or Paulina choose:
- to not learn, improve, etc
- to not work, save, invest, etc
- to not eat well, exercise, etc
- to not maintain a healthy weight
- to maybe not stay on their meds
And they have this supposed right to wellcare and healthcare...
And of course there is a financial aspect to this, unless you plan to make the Doctors, Nurses, etc to act as slaves.
So that means Peter and Peterbella need to pay more in taxes, health insurance premiums, etc to pay Paul and Paulina's bill.
With this in mind... What should Paul and Paulina do to deserve this right?
Let's use our friend Angel Adams as an extreme example
Based on your view Peter and Peterbella should work extra hours to ensure that these ~19 adults and children have healthcare...
And our buddy Angel can keep making babies because no one should stop a mother from doing so....
Is that what you believe?
"What should Paul and Paulina do to deserve this right?"
The great thing about a right is that it is yours whether someone else thinks you deserving or not.
Moose
Apparently you are saying that Peter and Peterbella have the mandated responsibility to work extra to fund the system...
So what responsibilities do Paul and Paulina have as citizens?
Is there some reason why you keep ignoring that your dream system only works if most everyone participates responsibly and fully?
As for healthcare is a right. Here is some food for thought.
We've had this discussion.
Moving on.
Moose
Yes... I think the summary of the Liberal view was...
"A civilized society is one that forces Peter to help Paul...
While not forcing Paul to help Paul."
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