Winter Elementary MAP Reading and Math Test Scores PowerPoint
Notes & Comments:
- Best to watch the video because the presn is slightly different, you can hear Gayle and Cheryl's comments, and the Q&A after the presn. (see link below)
- Summary: It seems scores are slightly better in most groups. This is great, however it means the gap is not changing much.
- Gayle noted that the gap has been stubborn for 5 yrs and it will take dramatic action to start it shrinking.
- My Question: Why do they use Race rather than Income? (ie Caucasian and People of Color)
- It makes no sense to me since I believe the relationship between Race and Academic scores are correlated but not causal... (ie students do not score poorly because they are White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, etc)
- Where as I believe the relationship between Free and Reduced Lunch and Academic success is much more Causal. (ie students often do score poorly if their family is poor) And yes: not because they are poor... They are often poor because they have less education, don't speak English, have personal problems, etc, etc, etc)
Disability Nondiscrimination Policy 402 - Second Reading
Public and Private Personnel Data Policy 406 - Second Reading
Link to Meeting Video
Thoughts?
12 comments:
I wouldn't be so sure that race isn't causal. Race has been proven to be "causal" of poverty, at least because of historical factors. More than that, though, I think what we see is that minority kids, who happen to be poor, end up in poor schools with poor teachers, because nobody else wants to teach there. As we now know, teacher quality is 20 times more predictive of outcomes than poverty. Therefore if there is a gap based on poverty or race then it is the (lack of) quality of the teacher, CAUSED BY that poverty or race, that is the real cause. Clear?
J. Ewing
Interesting questions from both
G2A and J. Ewing. While I know a good amount about education and even did a bit of research, I can't answer them with much authority, but only offer my impressions. I agree that the income level is the biggest factor in the gap, but that race is a factor as well. I know that schools teaching low income/immigrant students have many good teachers (I consider myself one of them) and that my school has had trouble staffing one position, partly because the students are so challenging to teach. I did learn about a group, Minncan, that started recently to address the achievement gap will be pushing educ. reforms that I have mixed feelings about.
I can think of at least two reasons why we can't just turn this situation around. The first is that a "quality teacher" means every year, all year, especially in the early grades. It doesn't happen that often, especially when there are "difficult students," run-down buildings and sometimes, physical security concerns. I have some personal knowledge of that. The second is that entrenched bureaucracies-- district and union both-- tend to make it difficult for good teachers to bend the achievement curve upward for anybody, because it makes the rest "look bad." I've mentioned solutions here before, but we first have to define the problem, then get somebody to acknowledge the problem.
J. Ewing
J,
Chickens and Eggs again... By the way, have you read Freakonomics? I am getting to the point where they prove through economics that Teachers are not a key factor... I'll post on it when I am done with the book.
Nokomis,
Oh man... You're one of those Teachers... (just joking)
I don't know anything about MinnCAN. I'll study up when I get some time. The upside for slow change proponents is that Education Minnesota, Parents United, the Mn Dept of Ed and the Gov will likely be pushing back.
Though at the forum tonight it sounded like an Alternative Licensing agreement has been reached.
As for poverty and academic results.(checkout G2A July 2010) I posted some interesting comparisons and graphs last Summer. By the way, if you did not notice... I mostly blame poor Parents for poor results, and J mostly blames poor Teachers and Schools.
Give,
I don't know who these "slow change proponents" are, but I wish they would get the heck out of the way before our public school system destroys another generation of children. I want change NOW!
You blame poor parents and I blame poor schools, you are correct and we have not resolved that debate as yet. Let me suggest, however, that beyond the debating points lies the question of what ought to be done and in that I must insist that we begin by changing those things over which "we" have some control, and that is the operation of our public schools. It is still a highly formidable task, but under the right kind of school reform I believe that most of these "poor parents" will be reformed as a side benefit. Let's start by dealing with the most proximate causes of the problem– the schools – and work backwards, if necessary, towards the roots.
Just as a side note: at the time the DC opportunity scholarship program was killed by Democrats in Congress, the average voucher student was 19 months ahead of their public school peers. Obviously, race and poverty are not highly correlated with academic achievement. With this kind of results from a voucher program, why shouldn't every kid get a voucher?
J.
RAS Press Release
Seems like this blog has good potential for interesting discussions of education. I agree with J. that teachers have a very big impact on outcomes and have seen research supporting this. Also that early years are very crucial (both preschool and primary) in later levels of achievement and graduation rates.
As for assigning blame for poor results, I'll go with poverty. Some schools overcome this barrier to success better than others.
As for the DC OSP that was killed, I don't know much about it, but my quick reasearch turned up results far less dramatic than what J. cites. A US dept of Ed report completed after three years shows OSP students had 3 monthes of additional learning in reading, but were at similar levels to non OSP peers in math. Perhaps I missed something skimming through this study or others have found greater improvement.
http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/pubs/20094050/index.asp
I consider myself a proponent for a medium rate of change. I work in a charter school and am open to various reforms, but am also skeptical of many.
"As for assigning blame for poor results, I'll go with poverty. Some schools overcome this barrier to success better than others."
I'm sorry, but the proposition that poverty is determinative of academic success is logically inconsistent with the fact that some schools do better (and in many cases FAR better) than others. For years the state of Minnesota has spent almost twice the state average per pupil in Minneapolis and yet the results are about half as good as places like the Harlem Success Academy.
We can no longer tolerate flat-out excuses like poverty or poor parenting to explain such abysmal results from the public schools. There are too many schools where poor children DO succeed;we should no longer accept schools that do not.
I am not willing to accept a pace of change slower than what can be had by having my child switch from his current school to the best school in the area. Anything else is just condemning them to further negligence and abuse.
J. Ewing
J.Ewing
You seem to have strong opinions about public schools. It's clear that you take time to learn about educational issues. I'm curious as to what drives your interest. Are you a parent, concerned taxpayer, school employee, other? I guess what I'm trying to get at is-how much of your opinion is based on personal experiences with schools vs. reading about school results and reform efforts? (which are both valid ways of being informed.)
What drives my interest? I am tired of seeing tax dollars poured into a system that destroys childrens' lives and won't reform on either front. If we spent only half as much for these results, that might make some flinty-eyed and hard-hearted sense, or if we spent what we did and were producing 100% literacy and 80% college-ready, that would be better. I am livid at what is being done to minorities and the poor. I let my compassion, perhaps, get the better of me sometimes. Or my sense of fair play. Or just plain old common sense that says the US competes on brainpower, and we're throwing it away.
I've been into the belly of the beast as far as school finance goes, trying to understand the budget, going through line by line, and looking at what state law requires of it. I've tried reform at the local level, by being helpful and by being confrontational. It's still a mess and I KNOW there is a better and simpler way.
For performance, I've charted performance versus cost and been surprised at how per-pupil spending is a NEGATIVE indicator, even though the state aid formula, supposedly, spends enough money to fully compensate for poverty and race. I've read about charter schools and voucher schools that succeed where public schools fail, and try to keep track of important studies or experiments in education. Reform will come, but I've already lost all patience.
J.Ewing
J,
My sense is that beyond the fact that we both care about urban kids aand believe they need a better education, we are going to agree on very little while commenting on this blog.
There are a few "beat the odds" schools out there, as describe in this Minnpost article.
One such school is Hiawatha Leadership Academy. There teachers start work at 7:15, leave at 5 p.m. and remain accessible by phone until 8:30 in case there are homework struggles. While clearly these extended hours are working for students, I don't think it is realistic to do a broad scale. I could work those kind of hours now, but I wouldn't have wanted to when my kids were little.
We may disagree, but I have found over the years that most reasonable people tend to agree on the ends desired. When you discuss long enough, you often find that you also agree on the means to achieve those ends but have been using different language to describe it. The only exception I have found is hard liberals, because they have their own definition for words and will not budge from them, from which flow their predetermined conclusions and they will not be reasoned, cajoled or pushed away from them, either.
So, if you disagree with me, say so; we'll eventually end up closer than you think.
J. Ewing
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