"Apparently this Liberal writer likes the term European Social Democracy and Laurie came up with it, so I am happy to stick with it. Krugman on ESD vs America" John
"Are you intentionally annoying when you refer to a prominent, nobel prize winning economist as a liberal writer?
"Because one wins an award does not indicate his bias or lack there of, typically I find Krugman referenced on Liberal websites, therefore I assume his views resonate with Liberal readers. There are plenty of award winning economists that show up mostly on Conservative sites. I kind of assume their views tend to resonate with Conservatives." John
"Lastly, returning to tax revenue equal to 20% of GDP without cutting defense, medicare or interest payments is not moderate, but you just go ahead and keep reading your nameless, award winning conservative economists, who advocate for policies that led us into the great recession." LaurieBelow I have given a number of links... Apparently the Economic "Experts" have wide ranging opinions. Now are they biased, are they seeing the evidence differently, are they only considering certain evidence, do they have political agendas, do they have personal agendas, etc? Thoughts?
"I prefer reality-based thinking and am quite capable of separating fact from opinion. Expert, evidence based opinion is not the same as bias." Laurie
Ironically, you will note that Paul Krugman's article is called "Conscience of a Liberal". So is he a Liberal writer as well as an award winning Economist? I guess that is a matter of perspective.
Economists for Romney
Bloomberg Economists Risk Labeling
Economist Obama's Blamelessness
NYT Conscience of a Liberal
Economists for Obama
On the lighter side... Onion Economists Evacuate !!!!
16 comments:
In general, I think to equate having an opinion as bias. Saturday Night Live made a great point the other night in a skit which portrayed those without an opinion as not unbiased, but rather as just stupid.
--Hiram
Some of our past discussions regarding bias. And remember that I don't see bias as a bad thing. It is just something we need to be aware of when we consider someone's point of view, results or recommendations. To be biased is to be human, since we all have a history that determines our perspective.
G2A Snopes and Relativity
G2A Blind Spots
G2A Liar Liar
G2A Mistaken ?
I would say that an expert opinion is still an opinion, unless said expert can explain to you the underlying facts and logic to support that opinion. In other words, expert opinion is no better than hiram's, or mine. EXCEPT, of course, that the expert may have access to facts not known to either of us, and specialized knowledge on how to use those facts (mathematical analyses, whatever) that have proven reliable in the past. An expert saying "Obama's policies will lead us out of this recession" is as big a fool as, well, lots of other folks.
To me that's the whole problem, after reading through the past discussions: None of us can possibly keep up with the barrage of "news" and opinion we now have; we have to pick and choose, and even then have to sort through piles of you-know-what to find the pony. I still contend, however, that objective truth exists and can at least be seen if not reached.
The problem with political discussions like this, however, and our country seems to have devolved into nothing but, is that there is so little objective truth to actually find-- everything is covered up by the supposed evils of the "other side"-- that at best all you can do is defend your own position. That doesn't help the people looking to form an opinion based on the facts you have, because you have that bias built in. In short, you are an expert in your own opinions; so what?
J. Ewing
Bias is a disparaging term people use to dismiss opinions without considering them substantively. It's a personal, ad hominem attack, and I usually view such attacks as evidence not only of intellectual laziness, but as an implicit acknowledgment of rhetorical weakness.
--Hiram
There are a lot of objective truths around. Four years ago, the country was in disastrous shape for a variety of reasons. One of them is that we got lazy. We stopped making things. We confused the inflation of bubbles with the creation of value. We fooled ourselves into thinking that folks like Mitt Romney could create wealth by shuffling paper around, allowing our country to become a Ponzi Scheme. And as with all Ponzi Schemes, the delusion has continued long after the reality. We think if we try one more time, give the Mitt Romney's of the world one more chance, they will make it all right. It's not going to happen. The only way things get better is if we get back to work, start making things again, start dealing with the problems Republicans want to kick down the road in hopes that some confidence fairy will make things all better again.
--Hiram
Well here is a very interesting document that a friend sent me. It is likely less biased than most, because these folks don't want to annoy any of their clients. (Conservative or Liberal)UBS Election Watch
It reminds me that no matter who is elected, the world will keep spinning. And that the polticians don't have much wiggle room given the problems we face.
And though Hiram and J love to throw mud at the opposing candidate, it really probably won't make much difference who wins. And the boat will rebalance later if it does.
Sounds like a lot of wishful thinking to me.
--Hiram
Of course you mean my belief that Obama won't lead us into the next Great Depression...
Just as politicians don't understand business very well, businessmen don't understand politics very well. And often to the extent they do, what they say is self serving and intended to position themselves for upcoming debates.
--Hiram
If business people really are self serving, they should fit in quite well with the professional politicians.
I thought the Economists 4 Obama post was interesting. Apparently not only do politicians need to have good ideas, they also need the skills to get the deal done. Maybe that is the advantage the business person may bring. They typically don't get paid if they don't close the deal, whereas the carreer politician doesn't feel that sense of urgency.
By the way, what is there to understand about politics. It seems kind of like being a weather person. Promise what you think people want to hear. When you are incorrect, blame the uncertainty of the situation. Repeat process.
So you never did say what in particular made you think the Krugman piece was biased. Did he get some fact wrong? or maybe draw the wrong conclusion that many European countries are quite nice places to live.
I'll let these folks give you an opinion. They seem to think he got his facts wrong.
AEI Sorry Paul
Pol Calcs
Personally, I think that Paul is simply trying to compare apples and oranges without acknowledging the cultural, demographic and other differences. He seems to want to believe that we could just implement "Social Democracy" here and it would be similar to Norway.
Even though we are still growing due to a rather open immigration policy. Where as the European countries are flat or shrinking. Our diversity is incredible compared to many of the European countries.
Also, we still take the following quote pretty seriously for better or worse. Where as that doesn't seem to be the case in Europe.
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Finally, since that was written in early January. (near our bottom) I would love to see if his numbers are different now.
Here is a recent critique of some of Paul's work. This individual thinks Paul "cherry picked" data to try to make his point stick. Unfortunately for him the Estonion's didn't take his comment lightly.
Krugman wrong about Estonia
Estonia Response
In summary Paul may be an excellent Economist, however he is human and therefore has bias due to his belief system. His reticular activating system should be functioning correctly. It filters out things that do not matter to him, and ensures that he notices things that do.
I also would appreciate if he would provide sources in his article.
By the way, I forgot to mention that I agree that Europe is nice. I have enjoyed it each time I have been there. Though I would never want to live there.
We are very fortunate to have the large houses, open spaces, cars, boats, healthcare choices, lower taxes, unlimited food choices, etc. The folks I know there have great lives, however they simply don't live as large as we do. (for better or worse)
One simple example of the apples/oranges. Look at how resistant the European consumers have been to buying the "more reliable and less expensive" Japanese and Korean cars. Anad note the huge number of small domestic manufacturers in Europe.
USA Auto Market Shares
Europe Auto Market Share
This simply doesn't happen in the USA. The majority of our population will choose the car that "is best for them" no matter how it impacts the US economy, our wages, our jobs, etc. Now is this a bad or good thing?
I think our nation's problems of late stem from our overreliance on politicians to solve our problems. Our politicians start to believe their own speeches and promise to solve problems that they are totally unqualified to solve, and are in fact completely incapable of solving by the coercive tools of government. Finding themselves impotent, they descend further and further into pure political preening and posturing, perpetuating their position and poisoning our personal problem-solving potential.
J. Ewing
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