This is interesting piece discusses in part why normally religious people seem so blind to the sins of Trump, Moore, etc. A question that I have asked myself often...
CNN Why is Religion so Devisive?
CNN Why is Religion so Devisive?
"What we think are bedrock principles are not really bedrocks," said Robert Kurzban, a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and one of the researchers behind the equality-equity game. "As situations change, people have different perceptions, and they measure the costs and benefits of holding moral commitments."
Consider white evangelicals' willingness to support politicians who act immorally in their personal lives, Kurzban said. In 2011, just 30% said they would do so, but in 2016, when Donald Trump became the GOP presidential nominee, that number leapt to 72%.
"You have to ask, were their answers in 2011 suspect, or did their interests change because they wanted this guy who would give them goodies and power?" said Kurzban"
33 comments:
It's pretty easy. We are all sinners, so Trump just isn't an exception. And there is a going theory, out there, that God moves in mysterious ways.
Also, it's the case that many, many voters are single issue. They will, under no circumstances, vote for a candidate who doesn't oppose abortion. And Trump has promised he will appoint pro life judges. Logic isn' my favorite thing, of course, but if you buy the premises, I know of no logic or syllogism that's more compelling. Or less capable of refutation.
--Hiram
Logic dictates that every thing is the sum of all its parts. Judging a person or candidate by just one part is not reasonable, despite how often we do so. The only problem with religions, both sacred and secular (like the Church of Global Warming) is that they are impervious to logic and reason.
I sure have found that to be true of those who worship at "The Church of Donald Trump"...
No matter what sins he commits or character flaws he displays, his followers simply can not see or acknowledge them...
And even when faced with bragging from their deity, they can not see how brain washed they are.
It is amazing...
Now I can admit that I voted for the man to thwart a potentially worse candidate. That is being pragmatic and judging the 2 devils by their parts.
The interesting thing about those active in the "Church of Donald Trump" is that they somehow have blocked seeing all of his terrible aspects. They honestly think he is honest, giving, mature, rational, etc.
It simply amazes me.
The good news is that his continual preaching of questionable behaviors raises a certain religious concerns for people who worship at the "Church of Christ"
This Evangelical Leader pretty much nails it.
"Well, I was against those who said, as you know, we should just move on. I didn't move on. I said, his moral behavior - moral behavior is connected to governance. And a few of us said that and got critiqued from the left for saying so back then. But I think there's got to be consistency in this. And Donald Trump's moral behavior is really - is really disgusting. It's the antithesis of Christian values.
This is the worship of money and sex and power. Everyone struggles with - public figures struggle. They should struggle. There's not even a struggle with this man. And I agree with Pastor York speaking the truth to power, but this man's destroying truth. This is an administration of perpetual, continual lying. So much is at stake for our faith and the soul of the nation. And how we respond as Christians has got to be more than the ends justify the means."
Therefore Trump's support by Evangelicals is dropping as it should.
Now I accept that I voted for him with my eyes wide open in hopes that he would pivot and mature into the office. Unfortunately he has seriously struggled to do that.
And as long as his "worshippers" don't demand penance from their deity, it is unlikely he will.
"The interesting thing about those active in the "Church of Donald Trump" is that they somehow have blocked seeing all of his terrible aspects."
And the interesting thing about the Cult of Trump Hatred of "TDS" is that those folks can NEVER see anything good he has done. Rush remarked the other day that it was obvious that Trump had never agreed to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital. If he had, the reasoning goes, American Jews would have all fallen in line to praise him. They did not, and will not, so therefore he must not have done it. Reality doesn't matter; it's all in how you see things.
we recently had a brief discussion in my family on whether trump will complete his 4 year term. Most people said yes but I predicted no. I don't know when, why or how he will leave office I just think it is more likely than not he will not be there in 2021.
Jerry,
For the most part I have not minded what Trump has actually done or not done. I see good and not good like every other politician...
It is his lack of humility, morals, professionalism, honesty, character, etc that I can acknowledge where as folks like yourself just can not see that this potentially capable Emperor is walking around naked...
Now if all you true believers held him to a higher standard, he may actually grow / improve. But if you keep cheering him on when he says and does stupid, unprofessional things... That's what he will do to the detriment of the GOP's long term success.
Trumps Pensacola Speech
And this list of Donald comments is almost humorous in a very sad way.
However... This NYT Piece may give me hope that his learning is proceeding. Even if at a slower pace than normal Presidents.
Logic dictates that every thing is the sum of all its parts
Is that a problem with logic, sums or parts? Not being a big fan of logic anyway, I am perfectly comfortable with the notion can be more than the sum of it's parts. Most things of value are, I would submit.
--Hiram
And the interesting thing about the Cult of Trump Hatred of "TDS" is that those folks can NEVER see anything good he has done
Rush argues that American Jews would support Trump if he moved the embassy to Jerusalem. Is it even possible to think this is true? It's one of a long list of things Trump supporters are simply saying in the hope of saving the Trump presidency that just don't reach any threshold of plausibility.
--Hirm
I have long said that I did not care how much money a Congressman stole while in office, so long as he voted for fiscal prudence and sanity. So it is with Trump. I care, somewhat, about his character or whatever, but so long as it doesn't get in my face, It matters little. Much of what he says is, I think, designed to drive the Left bat-guano crazy, and it is working. Meanwhile, he is getting "good stuff" done. "Watch my left hand..."
Remember Bill Clinton? He was acknowledged to be a "very good liar" and a proven sexual harasser of the first rank. So long as he toed the leftist line, though, nothing was said, by Democrats at least. Let's have some balanced expectations, here.
As for the Jerusalem question, it is odd to hear Democrats who voted overwhelmingly for EXACTLY that outcome, to now be predicting Armageddon as a result. Or was that for the tax bill? Sometimes it is hard to tell with those people.
Apparently those were different DEMs in 1995...
And most Presidents kept holding it out as a carrot to the Israels. Instead Trump the poor deal maker just gives it to them for nothing, while giving more Muslims a reason to dislike America...
How can he be such a poor deal maker after having a book written?
So yes you have now proven yourself to be as morally corrupt as the DEMs were with Bill Clinton...
Congratulations !!!
It is good that you seem to agree with the guy I quoted..
"What we think are bedrock principles are not really bedrocks," said Robert Kurzban, a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and one of the researchers behind the equality-equity game. "As situations change, people have different perceptions, and they measure the costs and benefits of holding moral commitments."
Consider white evangelicals' willingness to support politicians who act immorally in their personal lives, Kurzban said. In 2011, just 30% said they would do so, but in 2016, when Donald Trump became the GOP presidential nominee, that number leapt to 72%.
"You have to ask, were their answers in 2011 suspect, or did their interests change because they wanted this guy who would give them goodies and power?" said Kurzban"
So if we accept that the "religious Republicans" are willingly selling their souls for a tax cut on other things that help them personally.
"So it is with Trump. I care, somewhat, about his character or whatever, but so long as it doesn't get in my face, It matters little."
Why do they resist so strongly acknowledging that he is a liar, womanizer, sexual aggressor, a financial dead beat (ie bankruptcies), a braggart, etc?
I mean it is easy for me to admit he is all of the above while supporting most of what he is doing... Yet the Trump apostles seem to need to defend his supposed "purity".
It is so easy to get the blood pressure rising on a true "Trump Apostle".
Just accuse Trump of the above things and they will start blaming everyone except for Trump. And they will get very angry with you, it is very personal and emotional for them.
And if one proves the large and continuous number of lies Trump makes they will go to HUGE LENGTHS to try to prove otherwise.
Personally I think it is a psychological issue. People have a hard time acknowledging how flawed Trump is as an individual once they have voted for him.
To do so would mean that these supposedly "Religious People" would need to face that they have sold out to someone they would not even typically associate with. (ie womanizer, liar, dead beat, egoist, etc)
I just don't think their minds will let them.
I don't see why you seem unable to hold two diametrically opposed ideas in your head at the same time, when it is a strength that liberals possess in excess. Suppose Trump is a bad person, however defined, but he does good things. Why should acknowledging one, or not, affect one's stance on the other? If Trump was a bad person, doing bad stuff, I would be complaining about the bad stuff, not the person.
And there is nothing immoral about someone else's sin. It doesn't "rub off" to associate with them or even when we encourage them when they do right. Remember, we crucified the last perfect public figure we knew.
It's like football players. We don't hire them as role models or pillars of public virtue. We hire them because they can run, pass and score points.
Then you agree that you voted for a liar, womanizer, sexual aggressor, a financial dead beat (ie bankruptcies), a braggart, etc?
As I said, I am fine acknowledging his many flaws... That is why I am not a Trump Apostle. I will note his good work and call him on his bad behavior.
To me he is just another politician.
I voted for no such thing. I voted for a guy who promised to stop terrorists, grow the economy, tick off the media big-time, cut regulations, etc. All the character flaws alleged are an attempt by the losing side to undo the vote by pretending to care about character when what they really want is to stop the implementation of sane public policy. I'm afraid their moral high ground is a little swampy. And selective.
Acknowledging and covering his many flaws will in no way turn back the election results or lessen his Presidential power.
The first can not physically be done. (ie time only moves forward)
The second has to be done by Congress who is reluctant to do so.
To ignore those many flaws, lies and performance errors simply allows him to continue to make them. If you truly want him to reach his potential, challenge him and make him improve.
To ignore them is simply "soft bigotry". Do you really think he is incapable of thinking ahead, speaking wisely, bringing the country together, etc?
You must think very poorly of his capabilities.
Why would I want him to "improve"? Whatever he is doing, it is working, as far as I can tell. Your statement sounds like those people who want a politician to "grow in office" by becoming more moderate and less effective. And why is it Trump's job to "bring the country together"? Isn't that the job of the people who so rabidly wish to stop him from MAGA? I think he is doing very well; I don't think he is a magician.
And why, among his flaws, do you want to dredge up things he did or said 20 years ago? He cannot change them, either by acknowledging or ignoring them, just as you said.
One can maintain one's position while being honest/factual, not randomly attacking people / institutions, listening more / speaking less, etc. In essence being a high character professional.
He simply is not used to doing that and he prefers the cheers of his shrinking minority of citizens as his rallies and poll numbers show. Being an effective leader with an ever shrinking mandate is going to frustrate him greatly.
Especially after his unprofessional antics give the DEMs the Senate next year.
For years and years, Democrats and their allies in the major media have played dirty politics without the need for truth or comity, dishing it out liberally at every opportunity. Now that it is coming back at them they are outraged, and every reaction puts them further away from the common folk who see their nuttiness getting nuttier. It just isn't good politics to say that 150 million people will die if 12 million people lose their Obamacare insurance.
I don't see Trump getting frustrated; I see him smiling all the time.
And I keep seeing his support numbers falling...
Of course he would claim that to be false news...
Here is an interesting analysis of Trumps temper making him say foolish things.
Just the facts...
And actually the claim is as follows. Where in the world did you get 150 million? It seems pretty well verified and proven.
"Using Congressional Budget Office projections of the impact of the House version of the bill, the authors estimated an additional 217,000 deaths over the next decade, or 21,700 per year"
"Sanders said, "When you throw 23 million people off of health insurance -- people with cancer, people with heart disease, people with diabetes -- thousands of people will die. … This is study after study making this point."
How can you throw 23 million people off of health insurance when only 12 million have Obamacare? How can people die for lack of government-run health insurance, when they are then free to buy private insurance (probably at lower cost), or when the emergency room will treat them for free, as required by law? They may as well be predicting a catastrophic temperature rise caused by man-made CO2. It is equally wild speculation.
The 150 million figure comes from one of those leftist nuts like Maxine Waters. Democrats can /claim/ almost anything, and will. When Nancy Pelosi predicts Armageddon, is she being more religious than Revelations? More believable?
And this is funny: "analysis of Trumps temper making him say foolish things."
Who knows what is in the mind of another? By what standard is he judged "foolish"? How do we KNOW that this alleged temper drives his comments? It is all just classic Trump Derangement Syndrome, as far as I can tell.
Well because between the medicaid expansion and other ACA programs, 23 million more citizens have health insurance. That is pretty simple. Source for you 12 Million?
And a linked source for the 150 million.
And if they they only have money for food/housing OR health insurance... Food and housing wins. Please remember that the subsidies make ACA insurance pretty affordable for low income folks.
Emergency rooms treat crisis issues, they don't do well care, long term health maintenance, chronic conditions, etc very well. Pretty easy to understand how 0.1% of those who lose their care will die. However I understand that you are insensitive to that.
This seems kind of fitting given your perspective...
"Those who are badly off must go there." "Many can't go there; and many would rather die." "If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."
Well I hope is temper that drives his tweeting or he truly is an idiot. I don't need to know what is in his mind to know that he is wrong on all 3 counts.
1. The special counsel was not created by Democrats as he says, but by his own foolishness in firing Comey in the way he did and his Justice Department personnel.
2. The Mueller investigation is not complete, and they keep issuing charges as they grow closer to the President and his family. Only time will tell.
3. Trump obviously has spent time with more than one of the women accusing him. So we know very well that he is blatantly lying...
So is he stupid, or does he think his Apostles are?
What makes you think that "neither one" is not the correct answer? Is it so hard for you to believe that 35% of the population that "still" support Trump are actually rational human beings?
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