Moose had posted this awhile back and I thought it was excellent. He said he did not cpme up with it, but it helped me to understand how Trump True Believers rationalize his most manipulative blatant lies? Maybe we can call it the Trump Stages of Denial. :-)
Now let's test it out on a few fact checked Trump quotes.
Why it is so hard for them to admit that they voted for a chronic liar and manipulator, and that they will likely do it again?
How do they determine what is real?
The scarier thing... What does Trump think in real?
- He didn't say that.
- And if he did, he didn't mean that.
- And if he did, you didn't understand it.
- And if you did, it's not a big deal.
- And if it is, others have said worse."
Now let's test it out on a few fact checked Trump quotes.
"If you have a windmill anywhere near your house, congratulations, your house just went down 75 percent in value," Trump told his fellow Republicans April 2. "And they say the noise causes cancer."
"If you buy, you know, a box of cereal, if you do anything, you have a voter ID. … The only thing you don’t is if you’re a voter of the United States."
"For years, they have not been able to get tax cuts -- many, many years, since Reagan."
California "admitted" there were "a million" illegal votes in the 2016 presidential election.Now I understand that Trump will be Trump, that is not what puzzles me. I am more interested in how people can look at me straight faced and go through this list almost every time he throws out an obvious falsehood.
Why it is so hard for them to admit that they voted for a chronic liar and manipulator, and that they will likely do it again?
How do they determine what is real?
The scarier thing... What does Trump think in real?
32 comments:
All I know is I havent
Is there anyone left who still believe Trump is a successful businessman?
--Hiram
In some ways he has been, he:
- marketed his name and self into a valuable asset
- used it to generate millions of dollars
- used it to become President
- and now he is supported without question by 100+ million American citizens
I am thinking that is pretty darn successful.
"Why it is so hard for them to admit that they voted for a chronic liar and manipulator, and that they will likely do it again?"
Are you going to vote for Trump again, John?
If he is the best of the 2 candidates...
I may feel inclined to plug my nose again...
Character is important, but so is a good capitalistic policy...
My vote is in the hands of the Democratic party. :-)
I am a fan of The Godfather, and in the Godfather a successful businessman is defined as one who makes money for his partners. I take that to mean that he generates wealth, both for himself but also for his stake holders, people who invest in him, people he borrows money from, people he employs, and people who buy and use his products. There is also a concept of illusory wealth, wealth that isn't generated, just moved around.
We have all seen models of successful businessmen. People like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos. They started with nothing, or at least not a lot, and built hugely valuable businesses, that made not only themselves wealthy, but those who did business with them, while creating businesses of immense value.
How does Donald Trump compare? What we have learned about his businesses is that while money comes and goes within them, they do not increase in value. They have, in fact, been essentially dormant since his 1990's financial crisis when he lost access to debt markets. He doesn't have stockholders so nobody has made money on his stock, his bondholders got stiffed. In terms of number of people employed, he is more like your local lemonade stand than a significant business enterprise. Listening to him, he seems to know little about business beyond having familiarity with the Manhattan real estates market in which he was a minor player.
--Hiram
He definitely was not an inventor like Jobs, Gates and Bezos, but he did go broke either.
And his family's industries have created jobs for architects, builders, managers, janitors, grounds keepers, etc.
And his entertainment ventures created jobs and income for many people.
I agree with you that he is not a great business man by any measure,
but he is not a failure either. He has accomplished far more than I would have in his position. :-)
You do know that Gates stole the technology he built upon, do you not?
Here is the more interesting question to me. Why is it so absolutely imperative that he be labelled a liar?
We label all kinds of things. Some are accurate, like calling Trump a liar. Others not so much, like calling Bernie and Warren socialists.
Moose
I woke up today from a nightmare. The Democrats take Congress in 2020 and Elizabeth Warren is President. They pass her tax plan and before the next election in 2022, government has confiscated 160% of everything you own. Liars, fools, fantasists or just plain nuts, you are correct, we need a label. But it ought to apply, yes?
Jerry,
If people do not acknowledge the reality of Trump, they may actually make the error of believing what he says. As I asked above...
"Why it is so hard for them to admit that they voted for a chronic liar and manipulator, and that they will likely do it again? How do they determine what is real?"
At least when you acknowledge that "crazy uncle Don" is prone to lying, exaggerating, manipulating, etc... One can take his statements appropriately and fact check him.
These Stage of Denial are incredible.
1.He didn't say that.
2. And if he did, he didn't mean that.
3. And if he did, you didn't understand it.
4. And if you did, it's not a big deal.
5. And if it is, others have said worse."
Imagine how you would have been ranting if Obama made up so many things.
Jerry,
Apparently your latest conspiracy is questionable at best.
And if you are correct, it really is not relevant to the discussion. Bill Gates managed little or nothing into a HUGE fortune and business.
It seems that Trump has not grown his family's business any faster than an S&P investment would have yielded.
He has not destroyed his Dad's wealth, but he sure has failed often.
"f people do not acknowledge the reality of Trump, they may actually make the error of believing what he says."
It is possible to acknowledge the reality of Trump WITHOUT believing him a liar, and it IS possible to vote for him regardless and either way. Again, why is it so necessary that you label him a liar? That he "isn't a politician" doesn't require him to always speak with flawless honesty, whatever that may be. I just heard Joe Biden say there were 3 genders. Was he lying?
Jerry. These are lies that he knowingly makes and repeats.
"If you have a windmill anywhere near your house, congratulations, your house just went down 75 percent in value," Trump told his fellow Republicans April 2. "And they say the noise causes cancer."
"If you buy, you know, a box of cereal, if you do anything, you have a voter ID. … The only thing you don’t is if you’re a voter of the United States."
"For years, they have not been able to get tax cuts -- many, many years, since Reagan."
California "admitted" there were "a million" illegal votes in the 2016 presidential election."
The good news or bad news is that you have made it down to 4 or 5.
4. And if you did, it's not a big deal.
5. And if it is, others have said worse."
Great. So what's wrong with 4 or 5? Why is it necessary to Brand him an incorrigible and dangerous liar, if it's no big deal and others have done worse?
You are funny...
De Nile is not just a river in Africa...
If you accept the reality that he is a Chronic Liar and Manipulator that you always have to fact check. Would it make it harder for you to support and vote for him?
Is this actually some kind of a protection system within humans?
For comparison...
Obama's 8 years of Pants on Fire Laws fit on one page
And Bush's file is even shorter.
And Trumps is already up to 6 pages.
These aren't even the False statements these are only the terribly incorrect ones.
All of Trump's Statements
On the upside... 30% of the time he gets it correct or kind of correct. :-)
"If you accept the reality that he is a Chronic Liar and Manipulator that you always have to fact check. Would it make it harder for you to support and vote for him?"
Yes, and that would be a monumental waste of time and effort. If you accept the reality that he speaks off the cuff, sometimes makes a factual error or exaggerates to make a larger point that is totally correct, then you don't have to do all that work. You just agree with the larger point and applaud. And if that drives the looney left around the bend trying to "fact check" him, so much the better. Thus occupied, they have less time for mischief.
Well feel free to protect yourself by denying reality.
This many errors / lies either show incompetency or manipulative intent.
I am not sure which is worse.
147 Mostly False (21%)
245 False Statements (35%)
103 Pants on Fire (15%)
And here is what he is saying at his rallies...
Why would anyone of good moral character lie like this?
Feel free to continue to believe he is a big liar and make yourself feel good by looking down your nose at those who don't seem to care. Your "reality" requires that other people make the same harsh judgments that you do about various Trump statements. I don't care who agrees with you, it's still a matter of opinion, certainly as to the 4 severity and the 5 relevance.
He said:
- the noise from wind turbines cause cancer...
- people need a picture ID to buy bread
- China is paying the tariffs
- biggest tax cut ever
And you want to defend his character?
I think it would be healthier for you if you accept that you are backing a liar and manipulator. I am okay seeing the good and bad in the man.
I would be healthier? Who seems to be obsessing over his character, which you cannot know, and ignoring all the good he is trying to do for the country? My Dad and my uncles were great spinners of tall tales, and every one of them were great people.
Maybe I can help you. I think most Trump supporters feel as I do, that Trump's greatest "character trait," if you want to call it that, is that he annoys the H**l out of all the right people. That burning hatred he invokes cooks a lot of popcorn on our side, while he ignores it and goes on trying to do the right things.
Sorry, I have never thought of self deception as a healthy state of mind.
And telling tall tales for enjoyment is fun.
Telling people who live near wind turbines that they may get cancer is not fun...
Or claiming record tax cuts, record electoral wins, etc when his listeners are brain washed is just manipulation.
By their fruits shall you know them.
That's how you judge a person's character.
Moose
That's sounds like approving bad behaviors that lead to good results.
Then Trump may score okay...
The bad behaviors are the fruits.
Moose
Not one of the clearer readings... :-)
Matthew 7:15-20 New King James Version (NKJV)
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
But I think the fruits are the results...
You are certainly free to believe what you want, but if someone lies every time they open their mouth, shall we assume that they are trustworthy if one of their lies leads to the discovery of truth?
If someone has cheated on their first two wives, shall we assume they aren't an adulterer because they married a third?
Is there a moral person hiding behind their cloak of immorality?
Moose
I agree that Trump is a flawed individual like or a bit worse than all of us humans.
I just thought your quote was a bit off, since Trump has accomplished good and bad things over the years.
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