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About Me
- John
- I am married and we have 3 adult daughters and a dog. We live in Plymouth MN. My interests are learning, communicating, home improvement projects, motorcycling, boating, and other outside activities. Thank you for reading my blog and have a great day !!!
49 comments:
CNBC Still Supporting Trump
Larry Jacobs had an article on these issues. I have spent a lot of time wondering what it is rural Minnesota wants and how to deliver it. Something I have been wondering lately is whether my opposite numbers in rural Minnesota spend much time in thinking about what people in Minnesota's cities and their suburbs want.
--Hiram
After all that thought... What answers did you come up with?
"what it is rural Minnesota wants and how to deliver it?"
Our subsidies to rural Minnesota are pretty huge. They go to things like roads, and nursing homes, and schools. Now of course, all of us are paying taxes which go to ease the effects on rural Minnesota of Trump's trade wars. There just isn't a rural agenda that's going unaddressed. What we get back are complaints that too much money is being in the cities. The senate office building loomed large in the rural imagination. Bike lanes in Minneapolis seem problematic also. In other words, phony negative issues are pushed in rural Minnesota in the absence of a real Republican agenda.
--Hiram
Hiram,
I think you just fell back into the urban liberal talking points.
The question was "what is it rural Minnesota wants and how to deliver it"?
Imagine that you:
- are a Christian with fairly conservative beliefs
- do physical labor for modest pay
- therefore live on pretty tight budgets
- spend a lot of time with family and neighbors
- believe in being self reliant
- believe government creates as many problems as it solves
- believe most politicians are self serving people who could not get real job
Once you have put yourself in their skin, what do you want?
Your "imagine that you" bullets are just conservative talking points. What we really need to do is bust down the talking points on both sides and talk facts and truth.
It's both true that there are a lot of phony negative issues that are pushed as well as legitimate issues -- and it goes both ways.
Actually I grew up with those folks, I am very aware of what and how they think.
What in particular do you see as incorrect in my list?
I'm not denying that there are folks who believe that stuff -- I'm saying it's not all based in reality, just as some urban folks believe stuff about rural folks that ain't based in reality either. We need to get away from the manufactured narratives.
What is "manufactured" about what people truly believe?
I am so confused... :-)
I have spent a lot of my life trying to get into the heads and hearts of customers and working to understand what they do. This is how I have helped create the requirements and designs for new equipment.
I never had an option to tell them that what they thought was needed from me and the equipment was anything but reality for them. I had to strive to understand things from their perspective. Only then could I entice them to buy what I was selling.
I think rural and urban folks have a lot of misconceptions about the others. Hiram's right, that for all the "self-reliant" talk, rural areas in our state are "takers" when it comes to taxes. Some urban folks tend to stereotype rural folks about their social views.
We need to try and move beyond that and get to a more fact-based discussion that recognizes the interdependence of rural and urban communities as well as come to recognition and acceptance of the fact that different areas have different needs. It should be OK to invest in transit in urban areas and rural broadband in rural areas. It's not a zero-sum game.
Now that is a Liberal Talking point...
"rural areas in our state are "takers" when it comes to taxes."
As has been covered here many times before... In reality..
- A lot or the "rural expenditures" go there for the benefit of folks who live in the cities.
- Many rural and urban communities are "takers".
Only the wealthy communities are net givers...
Here is more detail.
OK, so you think rural Minnesota could survive as they do today if they lived on only the tax dollars they generate?
Or this one. I am betting there are far more "takers" in the urban twin cities than in the rest of the state.
I mean their population density is so much higher.
I definitely think that the tax revenue that the Metro area generates should stay in the metro area.
Moose
Sean,
Do you think the people of the Twin Cities could live any where near as well as we do without our surrounding rural communities?
I am sure the State could live just fine without the urban impoverished communities.
Moose,
How are you going to determine what is generated where?
And can I withold my wealthy suburban taxes from the expensive inner ring?
I kind of like that idea...
What is raised in Plymouth stays in Plymouth...
From your source:
Only two metro area school districts are in the lowest quartile of median income (Columbia Heights and Brooklyn Center). Only three others (Fridley, Minneapolis, and St. Paul) are in the second-lowest quartile. Only five districts (Robbinsdale, Richfield, Roseville, North St. Paul, and South St. Paul) are in the second-highest quartile. Every other metro district is in the top 25% of income.
MREA Maps
It's ironic that the source you're using is a group that's begging the Legislature for more state funding.
"Do you think the people of the Twin Cities could live any where near as well as we do without our surrounding rural communities?"
No, I don't. But it also requires acknowledgment that the people in the rural communities couldn't live like they do without the Twin Cities. That's the problem. As I said above:
"We need to try and move beyond that and get to a more fact-based discussion that recognizes the interdependence of rural and urban communities as well as come to recognition and acceptance of the fact that different areas have different needs. It should be OK to invest in transit in urban areas and rural broadband in rural areas. It's not a zero-sum game."
Every district in the State is begging for more money except those in wealth suburbs... What is your point?
And I am pretty sure there is more state money going to the communities you noted than to all of out state MN...
My point again is that the burbs are carrying every one else. The "urban" folks should get off their high horse.
So are you saying that ALL the low income communities should just shut up and be thankful for whatever the burbs chooses to give them?
And by the way, if you think the Urban Rural divide is about light rail and broadband, I don't think you read my list very well. Here it is again for your convenience.
Imagine that you:
- are a Christian with fairly conservative beliefs
- do physical labor for modest pay
- therefore live on pretty tight budgets
- spend a lot of time with family and neighbors
- believe in being self reliant
- believe government creates as many problems as it solves
- believe most politicians are self serving people who could not get real job
Once you have put yourself in their skin, what do you want?
News item 1
News item 2
News item 3
News item 4 - good summary at the bottom
"So are you saying that ALL the low income communities should just shut up and be thankful for whatever the burbs chooses to give them? "
Do you have a reading comprehension problem?
"And by the way, if you think the Urban Rural divide is about light rail and broadband"
Examples, not a comprehensive list. Why is this such a difficult concept?
Because Liberals seem to keep bringing up the financial issues...
When the differences are much more philosophical.
One big issue that I have eluded to is that Urban Liberals seem to like to tell everyone else how they should live their lives.
Why a Minneapolis urban liberal thinks it is their God given right to tell people in Mississippi how they should live their life is beyond me?
And yet over and over they push for federal programs, federal regulations, federal funding, etc.
If the Urban Liberals had their way, they would probably be happy getting rid of State and Local governments.
That same Minneapolis urban liberal who is receiving a lot of funds from the Burbs, has no problem trying to stick their noses in rural affairs... I am often amazed at the ego the urban Liberals must have. :-)
Moose,
Do you live in one of those impoverished "takers" urban communities?
I know Sean lives in a community with some of the wealthiest properties in MN... According to one of those links I looked at.
I keep thinking he should move to Robbinsdale and live his values by helping the low rent folks. :-)
The fun thing about arguing with you is that it’s guaranteed you will try to change the premise of an argument.
Since the only thing I’ve suggested is that the metro as a whole keep its money, it’s irrelevant which metro community I live in.
Moose
As has been covered here many times before... In reality..
- A lot or the "rural expenditures" go there for the benefit of folks who live in the cities.
- Many rural and urban communities are "takers".
Believe me, the argument that working for all Minnesotans benefits all Minnesotans is one I have made often. Now it's basically unthinkable for me to make the argument that rural Minnesotans are "takers" because it's insulting and not true. What we think but don't say is that rural Minnesota benefits a lot from being in the same state with cities, just as cities benefit a lot from rural Minnesota. It's Republicans who benefit from the division not Democrats. It's why Democrats seem to worry a lot more about what they might not be doing for rural Minnesota than Republicans seem to worry about what rural Minnesota isn't doing for the suburbs and the cities.
--Hiram
Where as I see the suburbs to be as different from the inner cities as they are from the rural areas, or more so.
Just look at the demographics, incomes, homes, businesses, etc if you doubt me.
You want to pretend that the rural areas are the recipients of so much generosity from the tax payers, when the inner cities receive much more generosity from them.
My only point is that Liberals should really drop the superior attitude that the metro is in some way better or more moral than the rural communities if they want to win their votes.
Here are some interesting State Aid spreadsheets if you want to research further.
Hiram,
I think you are missing a key philosophy difference.
Most Liberals seem to see the world as "what the government can do to help me / them, or regulate the "bad people".
Most Conservatives seem to see the world as "how will the government tax and spend my money, or regulate my personal choices".
The reality is that the government can not do much without taxing citizens.
So the big question is where is that golden balance???
"That same Minneapolis urban liberal who is receiving a lot of funds from the Burbs, has no problem trying to stick their noses in rural affairs... I am often amazed at the ego the urban Liberals must have."
That goes both ways.
"My only point is that Liberals should really drop the superior attitude that the metro is in some way better or more moral than the rural communities if they want to win their votes."
How many times have conservatives (including you) suggested something along the lines that rural folks are the "real Americans"? If I had a nickel for every such time, I could be retired.
I guess I can not deny that, though I don't remember them trying to control our:
- salt usage on the roads
- fertilizer usage on our lawns
- development of new industries in our communities
- choices in local school curriculum and policies
- how much people are paid in our communities
- etc.
Though I am watching the SW Rail construction every day I go to work, I still can not believe we are spending 2,000 million dollars plus endless subsidies to help people in a very narrow area of the metro. The upside I guess is that it is a good jobs program.
I guess I don't say they are the "real Americans", however I do believe that their hard working smaller community lifestyle does make them more grounded. Then again there are also some real loser red necks out there also... So maybe that does not matter.
And I say that policies for America need to take all Americans in all regions into account, not just those who live in the metro areas. This is what makes the USA a cohesive strong country.
Most Conservatives seem to see the world as "how will the government tax and spend my money, or regulate my personal choices".
It's something I understand pretty well. Liberals want to talk about things, conservatives about how we pay for things. We think about military exercises in Korea about how it protects our various national interests. Conservative think about how much they cost. For me, what conservatives miss is that things we don't want to pay for in taxes inevitably get paid for in other ways. Trump, for example, wants Japan and Germany to pay for the costs of their own militaries, without considering the costs of a militarized Japan and Germany have imposed on the rest of the world in the past.
--Hiram
Does this mean that you want the US Military to continue being the "World Police" for ever?
Or should we trust that other countries have learned from their mistakes and are now ready to help?
Have we learned from our mistakes?
Moose
Which ones are you thinking of?
What rural Minnesota really wants is loosened environmental regulations. That's where there is the real clash of interests.
--Hiram
Hiram,
What they want want is what most people want...
Local control of their communities and lives...
Just keep the farm subsidies, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, gas taxes, and LGA coming...
"I guess I can not deny that, though I don't remember them trying to control our:"
Sure they do. Who do you think put up the bills in the Legislature designed to preempt cities from raising the minimum wage or prevented cities from banning plastic bags (again, just examples not a complete list)?
Local control for who, exactly?
I agree that they do want their farm security programs, especially when the government keeps screwing with the international market.
The others are Democrat creations that they pay into. Of course they want their money back.
I am pretty sure that was the business lobby who was against special wages in Mpls / St Paul. Not sure who cared about plastic bags.
Well, you can check on these things.
"I am pretty sure that was the business lobby who was against special wages in Mpls / St Paul. "
The bill was authored by a Senator from North Branch.
"Not sure who cared about plastic bags."
Authored by a Senator from Alexandria.
Apparently they thought they were protecting their businesses...
And some more coverage.
Maybe both sides should respect boundaries better.
"Apparently they thought they were protecting their businesses..."
Minneapolis raising the minimum wage doesn't affect Cohasset, though. In fact, if we believe conservative economists, businesses should flee Minneapolis to relocate elsewhere, which in fact would benefit other areas of the state.
"Maybe both sides should respect boundaries better."
Now you're starting to get it.
Local control of their communities and lives..
Sure. I don't want their pollution in my location. Very understandable. I hear less about about local control when it's a question of shipping soybeans to China.
--Hiram
Sean,
Actually it can impact a Cohasset business if they have a branch in Mpls or St Paul.
More rules and regulations, more staff, more filings, etc.
I will argue that the Urban Liberal DEMs reach out into the Rural areas much more than the reverse.
Hiram,
I am sure the people down stream from Mpls / St Paul aren't excited with all the salt we drop into the Mississippi either.
Maybe we should stop killing black bears who wander into the metro, and introduce wolves to help control our deer problem...
I am sure the people down stream from Mpls / St Paul aren't excited with all the salt we drop into the Mississippi either.
So why doesn't the Minneapolis City Council deal with the problem locally and pass an ordinance requiring salt not to leave the city? I am also in favor of putting up signs telling black bears they are not welcome in metropolitan areas.
--Hiram
I'll tell the farmers up North about a sign for the wolves.
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