WAPO Alexander Criticizes Trump... But No Witnesses...
FOX Murkowski Comes Out against Witnesses
NYT Trump told Bolton to Help
So I am pretty sure everybody understands fully that:
So having more witnesses is somewhat pointless, which is what the Senate will vote to do very soon.
Now the question will be, what should the Senators do next?
1. Acquit Trump. (ie state his behavior was fine)
2. Censure Trump (ie state that we expect better from our President)
3. Remove Trump from office
I assume 3 is off the table and my favorite #2 is unlikely given how scared the GOP is of Trump and his True Believers. :-( It is a sad day if he walks without even an official reprimand. :-(
For you Trump True Believers, please remember that if you let Trump do it without adverse consequences. More politicians will think they can use your tax dollars and civil servants to stay in office. "For the good of the country." :-(
FOX Murkowski Comes Out against Witnesses
NYT Trump told Bolton to Help
So I am pretty sure everybody understands fully that:
"Trump manipulated / harassed State department personnel and Withheld Tax Payer money from an approved purpose in order to get the Ukranian government to investigate the Cloudstrike conspiracy and the possible Biden situation. With some of his intent being to smear the DNC and his leading 2020 Presidential rival."
So having more witnesses is somewhat pointless, which is what the Senate will vote to do very soon.
Now the question will be, what should the Senators do next?
1. Acquit Trump. (ie state his behavior was fine)
2. Censure Trump (ie state that we expect better from our President)
3. Remove Trump from office
I assume 3 is off the table and my favorite #2 is unlikely given how scared the GOP is of Trump and his True Believers. :-( It is a sad day if he walks without even an official reprimand. :-(
For you Trump True Believers, please remember that if you let Trump do it without adverse consequences. More politicians will think they can use your tax dollars and civil servants to stay in office. "For the good of the country." :-(
55 comments:
I have to wonder what these 2 will receive for their votes?
"Tennessee’s Lamar Alexander and Alaska’s Lisa Murkowski -- voted against the motion."
I mean let's not be naive, if Trump was willing to extort and pressure Ukraine with ~$400 million in US aid. He certainly is not above doing so with 2 Senators.
Our government is certainly a swamp... :-(
It is too bad Gen Kelly is no longer in the WH guiding Trump away from his worst impulses.
The 2020 choice for ex-Republicans
Congress has shamed us.
---Hiram
As Yeats pointed out:
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
--Hiram
This dysfunction put me in a bad mood last night, though I am not sure who to blame.
We are getting what we voted for.
Our country is pretty evenly divided with 2 tribes who love to bash each other and have very different beliefs.
As I posted elsewhere...
For a somewhat Independent Slightly Right Moderate like me it makes for an interesting and depressing blog topic.
The two tribes continually moving out from the Center... With no sign of anything that will reverse the trend... One has to love cable news and social media... :-(
Everyone gets to watch, hear and read only things that reinforce their existing perceptions and beliefs that they are the responsible, good, etc party. While painting the other tribe as irresponsible, bad, etc... :-) The concept that we are all prone to confirmation bias is scary and fascinating.
Here is an interesting graphic from PEW that shows polarization over time... I am feeling ever more lonely in the middle. :-)
PEW Polarization Graphs
But I do agree with you that it is a sad state of affairs. :-(
It really is too bad that we did not elect Romney in 2012...
I keep thinking that Trump never would have been President if that had happened. It is interesting how dominoes fall sometimes.
This dysfunction put me in a bad mood last night, though I am not sure who to blame.
There is blame to go around, But the question is now that Congress has failed and we have a murderous psychopath in the White House, where do we go from here? New Zealand?
--Hiram
It really is too bad that we did not elect Romney in 2012...
Hard to understand given the lack of leadership Mitt displayed during impeachment.
--Hiram
Hiram,
Please explain again your belief that Trump is a "murderous psychopath".
There is not doubt that he is a lying duplicitous self absorbed politician.
But I don't see murdering psychopath.
What else should Romney have done but to tell everyone his belief openly and honestly?
Then voted in alignment with this>
Please explain again your belief that Trump is a "murderous psychopath"
On January 3, 2020, Donald John Trump ordered an attack using lethal force, intentionally and with malice aforethought, that resulted in the deaths of 10 human beings. He is a murderer.
--Hiram
Hiram,
Then everyone of our modern Presidents has been a "murderous psychopath"...
The Iranian General and Iranian backed militias in Iraq are in the business of dealing death on innocent people. Apparently what you reap you shall sow...
MinnPost by Eric Black
Then everyone of our modern Presidents has been a "murderous psychopath"...
President Trump is a murderer, no just a murderous psychopath. One thing, I am pretty sure of, in a criminal trial, it's no defense to a charge of murder that there are other murderers as well. Even in the crime I have accused him of, there were other conspirators involved. When I saw Trump gloat on TV about his slayings, it was clear to me that this man was a conscienceless assassin and it terrifies me that such a man is allowed to walk the streets freely.
Ten people were killed by Trump. Can you tell me which of them "backed militias in Iraq are in the business of dealing death on innocent people. Apparently what you reap you shall sow...". All of them?
--Hiram
--
Did the Justice Department legal opinion that President Trump relied on in launching the strike argue that other presidents had done similar things and yet weren't charged with murder after leaving office?
--Hiram
Have you not read up on Soleimani and QUDS?
Brooking How Terrorism helps and hurt Iran
Westpoint Reseach
This guy had much more power than Osama Bin Laden... And was just as dedicated to using it to further Shiite power.
By the way, I do wish Trump actually had a strategy regarding Iran and was not so committed to Israel, but the death of murderers was not necessarily a bad thing.
Have you not read up on Soleimani and QUDS?
What about the other 9 people who were slain? But the fact is, the fact that the victim was a bad guy isn't a defense to murder. And to be fair to the president, the legal opinion he relied on didn't make that argument.
--Hiram
This guy had much more power than Osama Bin Laden... And was just as dedicated to using it to further Shiite power.
Is furthering political power a legal justification for killing someone? Does that mean in America, political literature droppers need to watch out? Especially from a president, we are told can neither be indicted nor removed from office for abuse of power?
--Hiram
The vote to impeach in the House was bipartisan AGAINST, with only Democrats in favor. The vote to ACQUIT in the Senate will be bipartisan, with only Democrats against. Any objective reading of the House Articles requires that vote. That they saw fit NOT to subpoena witnesses and require testimony, through the courts, argues against witnesses, and the clear transcript of the call, the testimony of President Zelensky himself, AND much of the testimony heard by the House in their Star Chamber "investigation" was either irrelevant or exculpatory. Their own House managers have said quite opposite things in previous impeachments, and most of them voted AGAINST any aid at all to Ukraine, and also for the law REQUIRING the President to withhold aid from corrupt countries! Just how strong is the TDS here??
Jerry,
You have been watching too much FOX News again... :-(
And I am still waiting for an answer...
Jerry,
If the statement was...
"Obama manipulated State personnel and Withheld Tax Payer money from an approved purpose in order to get the Ukranian government to investigate the missing server conspiracy and the "Cheney" situation."
Would you see it as an impeachable office that justified removing Obama from office?
Or would it just be Obama operating within his accepted boundaries?
Rationale?
The facts are very clear what Trump did , and they will become clearer with time...
And please remember that the Military had confirmed Ukraine had met their obligations in June. And Trump only asked about 4+ year old issues.
It amazes me how far the Right is going to rationalize Trump's really bad behavior.
And what would you have to say if Obama blocked the release of relevant emails?
So are you okay censuring him for this mess?
Or do you want to give him the all clear to do it again?
Some Interesting fact checking on multiple issues
Hiram,
So did Obama "murder" Osama Bin Laden for political power?
So did Obama "murder" Osama Bin Laden for political power?
Well, I don't think he did. But I am pretty sure that if Obama ordered the killing of Bin Laden for personal political advantage, he would have been guilty of murder. Politicians don't get to kill people for political reasons in America.
--Hiram
For an explanation of the legalities of President Trump's actions I refer you to the legal opinion he relied on when issuing his order.
--Hiram
"If the statement was... Obama manipulated State personnel and Withheld Tax Payer money from an approved purpose in order to get the Ukranian government to investigate the missing server conspiracy and the "Cheney" situation."
Talk about a hypothetical! Obama prevented ALL aid from going to Ukraine, not just delayed it, and it was BIDEN (aka Quid Pro Quo Joe) son Hunter that was under investigation until the prosecutor (now filing suit against Biden) was fired because Biden withheld US taxpayer money to GET him fired. And it was Hillary that benefited from Ukraine's proven interference in the 2016 elections.
IOW, I defy you to show where Trump has said anything approaching your obviously fictional quote. Maybe you should watch Fox News instead of CNN.
Putin is willing to go along with increased arms to Ukraine because Trump is delivering what he wants most, a divided and weakened Europe.
--Hiram
Jerry,
The good news is that I do not have cable or dish...
So I just read them along with other sources as you know.
FOX's news group is okay, it is their opinion folks who are really biased.
Obama and Biden were promoting US and European positions in a very public effort. And they were working to protect future expenditures in Ukraine from corruption.
Now how again was Trump's investigating 4+ year old conspiracies in secret through his personal lawyer in any way going to protect US aid in 2019? Please remember that all of the individuals from 2014 and 2015 had been removed by this time. Now if Trump had questioned current corruption risks you would have a point, but know he was just digging for old old dirt... And then he got so desperate that he just wanted an announcement of an investigation. :-(
As for the Ukraine actions, even the GOP controlled Senate found squat.
As for a quote by Trump, it will come out in time. He can only block access to those emails for so long... :-)
Was it Legal?
I see your problem. You think Politifact deals in fact. Yet most of the claims made in your cite are provably false. See the video of Biden admitting his quid pro quo, compare it with the transcript of Trump's phone call, and you know all you need to know. All the Democrat twists and distortions surrounding those two are strenuous attempts to disprove the obvious.
Jerry,
Quid Pro Quo is fine and used often to attain a forward looking change in a foreign country. Especially if it is done in the open in alignment with the stated US policy.
The problem with Trump's Quid Pro Quo was that it was in secret and it was an effort to dig up old dirt on the DEMs and Biden...
Again if he had asked for investigations regarding current / future Ukraine personnel or policies that would have been fine.
How do you see digging into 4 year old events as important to ensuring that our military aid is used effectively and correctly today?
Did you ever read the full timeline?
Or are you worried that the facts may confuse you?
The good news as I said is that the truth will come out in time... The Freedom of Information Act is a wonderful thing.
It does puzzle me that folks like yourself who are usually into investigating government conspiracies are happy with Trump blocking people from testifying and documents from being released... :-)
The good news as I said is that the truth will come out in time... The Freedom of Information Act is a wonderful thing.
Of course it will. That's why Republicans were so desperate to close down the proceedings. They know the truth will come out, and that it will be really ugly.
--Hiram
I am not sure it will be uglier than this...
"Trump manipulated / harassed State department personnel and Withheld Tax Payer money from an approved purpose in order to get the Ukranian government to investigate the Cloudstrike conspiracy and the possible Biden situation. With some of his intent being to smear the DNC and his leading 2020 Presidential rival."
But at least maybe Jerry and his friends will be able to face the truth...
Though given their ability rationalize and deny so far, I am not sure even that will do it. :-(
I am not sure it will be uglier than this...
To quote Lazslo Birinyi, "There is never just one cockroach." If the dam breaks on testimony, the deluge could be tremendous. The problem with Trump is that he has no moral compass. He doesn't understand the difference between right and wrong. That means is open to doing wrong things, without knowing what he does. I have no doubt that he genuinely believes it is okay to solicit help from foreign governments for his domestic political campaigns. It's why he can say that his call doing that is "perfect". And Republicans know this, which is why they work so hard to suppress information the American people have a right to know.
--Hiram
Wow. Classic projection, confirmation bias, rationalization, and pure TDS. Imputation of motives is bad enough, but to impute motives based entirely on falsehoods and irrelevancies is really over the top. Your "timeline" is fine for your warped, all-out TDS conspiracy theory. It's pretty much proof of itself and nought else, and don't ask me to refute point-by-point, the truth is out there.
Hiram,
I guess I am just saying that when the dam breaks it will just confirm what we know and Trump stated...
"June 13: In an interview with ABC, Trump says he would accept political help from a foreign government. Trump tells ABC's George Stephanopoulos he would not alert the FBI if foreign governments offered him damaging information about his opponents in the 2020 presidential election. The same day, the chairwoman of the Federal Elections Commission issues a statement that doing so would be illegal.
Apparently Jerry thinks this is okay.
Hi Jerry,
There are documented sources for all of the items in the timeline...
If you have a better sources I am always happy to review it. Please share.
TDS goes both ways. Just this morning, for instance, you've got the head of CPAC defending Trump's tweet from last night congratulating the state of Kansas for the Chiefs' Super Bowl victory.
Now that is funny....
Of course I only knew they were in Missouri because I attended a game there once for some reason.
Let's not confuse lack of evidence with whether or not something is true. As an experienced organized crime leader, Trump is skilled at not creating an evidence trail.
--Hiram
Manchin calls for censure
GOP says Trump has Learned his Lesson, the Evidence Indicates Otherwise
Just like the rest of Shampeachment, Trump's call was made because Kansas City IS partly in Kansas. He also called Missouri. I guess when you are trying to prove something, you put the worst possible spin on part of the truth, and then ignore the other part. If you deal in truth at all, which Adam Schiff does not.
Trump's call was made because Kansas City IS partly in Kansas.
Do you really think Trump knew that?
--Hiram
NO !!! He is from NY !!! :-)
It's really quite amazing the excuses people will make for the Idiot in Chief.
The Kansas City Chiefs are from Missouri. This is a fact.
It's yet further evidence that IMPOTUS and his minions are uninterested in the truth.
Moose
Here's the thing about the "Kansas" tweet: if Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton had done the same thing, it would have been a three-day story about how "Democrats are just a bunch of urban elites who don't understand the heartland." but Donald Trump, the Manhattan, NY guy with the solid gold bathroom says it and Republicans come "well, actually-ing" to his defense. (Even though the team has always been located on the Missouri side.)
KCKS is part of the KC metro, but is essentially a suburb. It is its own city with its own government. That facts need to be explained to Trumpers, while not unexpected, is certainly a waste of time.
Moose
Trump is not the sort of a person who knows things. unlike Obama who I am pretty sure knows that there are 50 as opposed to 57 states in the union, I am pretty sure Donald Trump doesn't know in which state the Kansas City Chiefs play football. Trump doesn't know many things one would think a daily reader of a New York newspaper would know. He thinks the different usage of England, Britain, and the UK are a matter of political correctness. He seems to think Ireland is in the UK. He didn't know Germany couldn't negotiate trade agreements on its own. Do any of these things matter? Or are those things only elitists know or care about? One thing is clear is that Trump has gotten a long way in life, without the rudimentary knowledge of the world so many of us take for granted. It's interesting why that is.
--Hiram
If Trump is an idiot yet runs rings around the Democrats on every issue, what does that say about Democrats?
His only intelligence is in how to read people and manipulate them, and he's very good at that.
He is quite literally an ignoramus in all other respects.
Moose
Post a Comment