Friday, December 30, 2016

MN Education in 2017

MP 6 Education Stories to Watch in 2017


I think another important area to watch is hopefully the end of Teacher Tenure, Steps, Lanes, etc and the other work rules that protect and over pay questionable personnel based only on their time served and degrees achieved. These also limit the pay and job security of younger Teachers who may be more effective, energetic, etc.


Let's change the Public Education system so that the Teachers who successfully take on the most challenging student bodies, full of the kids who need them the most, receive the highest wages and job security !!!


G2A Who is Selfish

73 comments:

John said...

Here is an interesting MN School Funding History summary.

This Hopkins LAC Document has some interesting data regarding the Special Education cross subsidy. This is the money that is stolen from the general budget because the Fed and State Special Education funding does not fully fund the real costs of Special Education.

This a very detailed MN special funding and cost document.

John said...

A Special Education Story by Beth Hawkins.

John said...

I bring this up because Jerry and I were discussing Cost Factors over here


Mpls District Wide: Success: Varies Greatly by Area/School
Funding/Student: $22,000
English Learners: 25% (100+ languages)
Special Education: 17%
Free & Red Lunch: 63%
Homeless: 5.9%

Banadiir Academy: Success: Low
Funding / Student: $12,000?
English Learners: 94.9%
Special Ed: 4.2%
Free & Red Lunch: 100%
Homeless: 3.7%

Wayzata: Success High District Wide
Funding/Student: $15,000
English Learners: 0%
Special Education: 8%
Free & Red Lunch: 10%
Homeless: 0%

John said...

I think all of these factors are must be considered when evaluating cost vs success. And we should probably add kindergarten readiness...

Here is what Jerry thought.
"The "demographically challenged," by your standard, are measured by the FRPL number, and Banadir is slightly worse off on that score, plus being WAY higher in ESL students. Now, all of the SP. Ed. students get IEPs so they succeed to the best of their ability and the high cost that goes into that may or may not be offset by Banadir's other disadvantages. WE DON'T KNOW and we cannot know until the non-SE students also have an IEP that we can price out. SFA is one way to do that.

I have no objection to spending what is necessary, or paying teachers what is necessary, but the objective MUST be to deliver education in a results-oriented and cost-effective manner. I've often heard schools say they are "educating children to their full potential." Baloney.

They are /collectively/ and selfishly taking money and then not delivering the goods. I grant that most teachers want to do better, but something obviously prevents them from doing it."

John said...

Let's see... Based on the data above, what could possibly be preventing the schools that are full of children with special needs and incredibly challenging home lives from being successful in academics??? :-)

Laurie said...

some kids just need some combination of more or better to achieve to a high level - they need better teachers or better curriculum or more teacher attention such as small group / 1:1 or more repetition to achieve mastery. I think my school could make improvements in the curriculum / teaching strategies we are using (especially for reading)

I don't expect we are going to get an influx of super teachers. Maybe the principal could raise the expectation about how much differentiating teachers do. Maybe the principal could do even more to foster a sense of urgency and greater effort by teachers to increase the number of our students that can pass the MCA tests.

I'd love for students at my school to have more time, like 4-6 weeks more school in the summer.

John said...

The interesting thing about system and process design is that it should not rely on "Super Personnel". If it does it is doomed to fail. It needs to be designed around good responsible capable employees.

I agree that the challenged kids need more learning hours, likely a combination of early education and longer school days/years. And of course between:
- Union work rules
- Conservatives unwilling to pay
- Parents / students feelings of being singled out

I am not sure how that is going to happen...

John said...

I am fascinated that both Jerry and yourself have started talking about the "right curriculum"... Especially Jerry...

I thought the idea was that local control was best because the Parents / Teachers knew best. And now we are trying to second guess them...

Please remember that I think the important thing is how the individual Teacher presents and helps the kids to understand whichever curriculum is used. Adjusting dependent on each child's learning style and needs.

Laurie said...

I have been a little disappointed by the support we have received from the state related to our being a poorly performing school. In over 2 years the major change we have made has been in using souped up objectives now called learning targets. I think using a program such as success for all would be more impactful. We need a super strong early literacy program to make much more progress in more of our students reading at grade level by third grade.

Most of my day is spent turning very low readers in 3rd, 4th and 5th grades into readers. It is a very hard job for the students I work with. They need so much repetition. There must be a better way. I keep buying more and more books or curriculum looking for something to accelerate the process.

John said...

The challenge with needing more support from the State is that it goes against Jerry's theory that "stand alone" schools are more creative and successful.

I think computers aided instruction would be very helpful for you slower learners. It can repeat the lesson as often as necessary.

Laurie said...

we do a fair amount of what I call computer reading but I know there must be better stuff out there than what I am currently using so I am going to spend some time over break looking for it.

jerrye92002 said...

"The challenge with needing more support from the State is that it goes against Jerry's theory that "stand alone" schools are more creative and successful.

I think computers aided instruction would be very helpful for you slower learners. It can repeat the lesson as often as necessary."

Good thing I discovered this topic before these gross misunderstandings take root. First of all, most conservatives I know are not unhappy about the amount spent on schools; they are unhappy with how grossly ineffective that spending is at producing educated children.

"more support from the state" is probably the correct governmental level to insure a "uniform system of schools" as required by the MN constitution, but unfortunately it comes with too many "strings" that interfere with local boards and parents and teachers determining how best to spend those dollars to get results. That and the fact that results are not "uniform" by any stretch of the term. And there is no need to re-invent the wheel. There are many successful school models out there; each school should be picking one. To me, the ONLY proper function for the federal DOE is publicizing these and offering them up as models from which individual schools can choose.

I think Laurie is right that "Reading is fundamental." Laurie, have you looked into the program of that name? SFA I know takes that tack, but it needs to start early so they have success by 3rd grade. VERY difficult to start in 3rd grade. And of all subjects, I would think reading would be the one least amenable to CAI, but I could be wrong. We do it with foreign languages, after all. That might also be the solution for your ESL students, as each could start out in their own native language. Laurie, do you have the computer resources (and tech support) to do that?

jerrye92002 said...

Laurie, good luck and God bless. Happy New Year.

John said...

Jerry,
Make up your mind. Either the Public school systems that are locally controlled are a failed model that traps kids within itself, or it is not.

The idea that charters / privates are better because they are creative, free, profit based, experts, etc really loses it's validity when they are reliant on the expertise and capabilities of the Public school system.

And unfortunately the Feds got involved in promoting higher standards and improved accountability because of all those local and state organizations who were happy setting low standards and leaving kids behind. That civil rights issue you say you are concerned about.

jerrye92002 said...

I cannot make up my mind while you keep dumping tangled thinking into it. No offense.

That kids are trapped in the public school system has nothing to do with whether they are "locally controlled" or not. MN public schools are supposedly "locally controlled," but the kids are trapped because they have the monopoly on public funding and most people cannot afford an alternative. That the schools are a failed model is yet a third point of debate.

Charters and privates are SUPPOSED to be creative, free, etc. but some, like Laurie's, are DEPENDENT on the public school system and therefore cannot be what they might if left to their own devices, or to models "imported" from other successful "creative, free" schools.

And you would have to convince me the Feds got involved because they wanted to improve education. I think it was more a matter of liberal conceit and lust for power. Were it otherwise, the NCLB act would not have had its accountability and standards provisions gutted. And the civil right to a decent education is no less denied now than it was when NCLB passed. Perhaps the Trump administration will be the leading deliverer of civil rights in a generation.

John said...

I keep waiting for you to give me a local example of this...

"from other successful "creative, free" schools"

John said...

Actual charters just get money from the State, they really are not dependent on anyone.

And I am pretty sure that you are the one that insists that once freed from Unions, School Boards, etc... Huge improvements would occur.

Per our usual discussions, these improvements only seem to occur when the Parents / children have to meet the school's acceptance requirements, sign a duties contract and perform those agreed to duties. So comparing school performance is a bit difficult when it is actually parental performance that varies.

jerrye92002 said...

Why does it have to be local? And are there not local private/charter schools that you have already dismissed for any of a number of reasons, but that do much better for the kids that DO attend? I am still waiting for you to give me proof that the miserable results of the inner city public schools are the absolute best that they can do, and no change is warranted. Or are you going to argue that these schools are already succeeding?

John said...

Please remember that ESSA gave more control back to the States, while insisting that they do something to ensure certain groups of children are not left behind. Seems like what you would support.

USA ESSA vs NCLB
Understood ESSA vs NCLB
NCES ESSA vs NCLB

John said...

Then give me a example somewhere in the USA.

I am a fan of the Harlem Childrens Zone, but they start with strong Parent Education and a lot of Early Childhood Education. Things that you claim are unnecessary and not successful.

John said...

As for can they improve... Let's go back to the text of this post.

"I think another important area to watch is hopefully the end of Teacher Tenure, Steps, Lanes, etc and the other work rules that protect and over pay questionable personnel based only on their time served and degrees achieved. These also limit the pay and job security of younger Teachers who may be more effective, energetic, etc.


Let's change the Public Education system so that the Teachers who successfully take on the most challenging student bodies, full of the kids who need them the most, receive the highest wages and job security !!!"

jerrye92002 said...

"So comparing school performance is a bit difficult when it is actually parental performance that varies."

So why do you insist that those parents willing to make that effort must remain trapped in the failing public school? Is there any reason whatsoever to believe that a school given that one advantage will succeed, regardless of the effectiveness of the rest of the program?

jerrye92002 said...

"Things that you claim are unnecessary and not successful."

Not at all. My objection to EC and to ECFE is that, run by government, they are not effective, whereas programs like SFA or HCZ, operated outside the government system, have considerable success.

jerrye92002 said...

Oh, and your plan for merit pay for teachers is a good start. I would add that much depends on the evaluation system, and there is more to it than that. I believe that student improvement (not absolute performance) and class size must be part of that. Obviously if we can have larger class sizes and yet have students perform as well, we can afford to hire fewer teachers and pay each one more.

You have to offer these teachers more control of how they discharge their professional duties. You have to give them physical security and administrative support for strong discipline. You have to offer them a career path that leads to "master teacher" and provides the "junior teacher" with training and encouragement.

This can be done piecemeal, I think, but of course Democrats will fight it all the way, because they always have. We may have to wait to 2019 to get it.

John said...

Well let's remember the primary reason that the North Minneapolis schools and their like have a higher percentage of academically challenged kids...

Most of the academically focused Parents who are willing to make an effort have already moved to other communities and schools, to magnets, charters, etc to flee those 'unlucky kids" and their parents.

It does not take much effort to apply to a magnet or a charter...

And as we make it easier for some more folks to flee their neighbors... Things will only get worse for those left behind... As it has for decades...

Of course then the anti-public schools folks will blame the schools for all future decline as their policies strip them of good students / families.

Laurie said...

Beating the odds

the school I have heard the most about is hiawatha academy. I think they have grown to 3 or 4 schools. I think they serve mainly hispanic students. None of these schools has a population as high risk as Banaaadir with being entirely low income and ELL. I think twin cities intl has a lot of ELL students. Almost all of these schools are charters.

John said...

Laurie, Does your school require that Parent's and Children sign a "contract" to be allowed into your school?

Hiawatha Parent/Guardians Commitment to Excellence
I will partner with the teachers and staff of Hiawatha Leadership Academy
– Northrop to help my child excel in school, both academically and
behaviorally, by making the following commitments:
❑ I will make sure my child arrives at school by 7:40 each morning
(Monday-Friday) and stay until 4:25.
❑ I will ensure my child gets a full night of sleep each school night (9-10
hours)
❑ I will make sure my child follows the HLA-Northrop dress code and wears
his/her uniform every day.
❑ I will ensure that my child is at the bus stop 5 minutes before pick up time
each morning.
❑ I will be at the bus stop on time each afternoon to pick up my child.
❑ I will drop off my child at school if she/he misses the school bus or if
she/he has a medical appointment.
❑ I will check and sign my child’s homework every night.
❑ I will ensure that my child reads or is read to every night.
❑ I will carefully read and sign any forms or papers the school sends home.
❑ If my child is going to miss school, I will call to notify the school office as
soon as possible.
❑ If my child’s teacher or school leader requests a meeting, I agree to
meet within 48 hours.
❑ I will attend all parent-teacher conferences.
❑ I will inform the school office right away about any changes in my
contact information so the school can always contact me.
❑ If I have concerns with the anything that is happening in school or on the
school bus, I will communicate with the school to help solve the
problem.
❑ I will show respect to everyone at HLA-Northrop regardless of race, color,
gender, handicap, age, religion, disability, lifestyle, sexual orientation, or
national or ethnic origin. I will always act and speak in a considerate
manner with everyone in the Hiawatha Academies community.
❑ I understand that my child must follow the HLA-Northrop school and bus
rules in order to protect the safety, interests, and rights of all individuals in
our school community.
We commit to follow the policies in the Hiawatha Academies handbook.
X _________________________________________________

John said...

Student’s Commitment to Excellence
I will show my commitment to Hiawatha Leadership Academy-Northrop in
the following ways:
❑ I will arrive at school on time every day.
❑ I will wear my school uniform every day.
❑ I will come to school ready to learn and work hard.
❑ I will follow all school rules to be safe and make sure that everyone has a
chance to learn.
❑ I will complete all of my homework and reading every night.
❑ When I make a mistake, I will always tell the truth and take responsibility
for fixing the problem.
❑ I will be safe on the school bus by following the bus safety rules and all
directions from the bus driver.
❑ I will show kindness, courtesy, and respect to my classmates, teachers,
and everyone in our school community.
❑ I will do my best to help make our school a great place for everyone on
our team.
We commit to follow the policies in the Hiawatha Academies handbook.
X _________________________________________________

John said...

Now just imagine how well the All Public Schools would be doing if all Parents did those basic Parental duties. And if the school could demand that a Parent show up within 48 hours if there are problems. And if homework, conferences, etc were mandatory.

John said...

Hiawatha Academy: Success: Moderate to Good
Funding / Student: $12,000?
English Learners: 64.6%
Special Ed: 9.0%
Free & Red Lunch:90%
Homeless: 4.4%

Hiawatha vs Mpls

John said...

I am not trying to pick on Hiawatha Academy, I am overjoyed that they do so well.

I am just trying to note that the Parent(s) / Students that attend it have apparently signed up to some pretty serious commitments, and I assume the school takes them pretty seriously since they want to protect their good test scores.

Laurie said...

I think most families would sign a commitment to excellence. It doesn't mean they will actually do it all the time. It is still a public school in which any family can enroll. I think their longer school day also makes a difference.

John said...

The question is... Can charters expel kids/parents who do not fulfill the signed agreement?

I know status quo public schools can not without some serious reasons.

John said...

Here is an interesting document.

Fair Pupil Dismissal

"Subd. 2. Grounds for dismissal. A pupil may be dismissed on any of the following grounds:
(a) willful violation of any reasonable school board regulation. Such regulation must be clear and definite to provide notice to pupils that they must conform their conduct to its requirements;
(b) willful conduct that significantly disrupts the rights of others to an education, or the ability of school personnel to perform their duties, or school sponsored extracurricular activities;
or
(c) willful conduct that endangers the pupil or other pupils, or surrounding persons, including school district employees, or property of the school."

John said...

I think the Banaadir Handbook should be modified to add sign off pages like the Hiawatha book.

Worst case you scare off some lazy / incompetent Parents and your test scores go up. Or do you have a shortage of students and need everyone you can get?

jerrye92002 said...

You have cooked up quite a scenario here: "Well let's remember the primary reason that the North Minneapolis schools and their like have a higher percentage of academically challenged kids..." Let us see if we can posit a more reasonable explanation.

"Most of the academically focused Parents who are willing to make an effort have already moved to other communities and schools, to magnets, charters, etc to flee those 'unlucky kids' and their parents." WRONG. Most of those who can AFFORD to move to better school districts do so, usually before the kids even enter school. They do NOT do it to "escape" but rather to find something better. If the nearby public school they had was better, none of that would be necessary. And because so few have the resources needed to move to a better school, those remaining are forced to accept whatever crappy education the school deigns to deliver. How is that "rich get richer" thing not a civil rights issue?

"It does not take much effort to apply to a magnet or a charter..." No, the trick is to find a /better/ charter/magnet school nearby AND where there is one of the few openings left. You are still "leaving behind" parents and kids that want better but cannot get it.

"And as we make it easier for some more folks to flee their neighbors... Things will only get worse for those left behind... As it has for decades..." That is backwards thinking. As we make it easier for some folks to get a better education, those kids will get a better education! Why should we condemn them to inferior schools??? And why must those "left behind" not have the option for a better school as well, either where they are, or someplace else? Why should ANYONE be condemned to a school that is failing them?

"Of course then the anti-public schools folks will blame the schools for all future decline as their policies strip them of good students" I am sorry, but that is backwards, too. Students and parents do not fail the school; schools fail the students and parents, at least up to the point where it becomes obvious that only a few individual students are refusing or unable to make progress. I've had one of those. Just one.

In short, if good students want to leave, WHY would you ever stop them from doing so?!?

John said...

If tens of thousands of good students and parents leave behind their questionable peers and community... Of course the community and schools will decline, no surprise here. This has happened in almost every urban center in the USA.

And I am fine with academically focused Parents leaving their community schools because they are full of unlucky kids, questionable Parents, crime and disruptions. However the idea of blaming exclusively the school employees for not working miracles with the remaining unlucky kids and questionable Parents is not okay.

Remember that we almost fled Robbinsdale for Orono a while back... However I remembered that my daughters and ourselves could make a difference in our community schools. (ie good role models, charitable, volunteering, etc) However we watched many of the more self / child centered folks relocate or open enroll to Orono and Wayzata.

John said...

My simple point is that if good citizens are not willing to stay and fight for their community and schools, they sacrifice it to whatever comes to fill the void they leave.

John said...

I was thinking about this statement below with regard to everyone I know who left RDale for greener pastures. And even those who intra-district transfer from East RDale to West RDale.

"They do NOT do it to "escape" but rather to find something better."

The reality is that they were all moving to leave behind the high poverty, high ELL, high disruptions, bad peers, etc.

Or they were moving to low poverty, low ELL, low disruptions, etc.

They pretty much liked the both sets of schools and Teachers, they just did not like the unlucky kids in the old school, the challenges that they caused and threats they made.

jerrye92002 said...

Have you noticed it is a losing battle? You are fighting against a huge monopoly, most all of your natural allies have fled the field of battle, and the Princes of Ignorance haven't even noticed you, or at least do not seem to have altered their behavior. Better to set up a competing fiefdom next door, where the peasants can succeed, and let freedom take its course.

Or look at it another way. Why are the schools not solving their "35% of the problem"?

Laurie said...

The right kind of school choice for Trump to promote

John said...

Laurie,
Great link. I think that describes Jerry's plan pretty good except for the governmental oversight and standard tests.

The question I always have is how will who determine the voucher amount based on the child's needs?

Based on past funding exercises the "unlucky kids" and "special ed" funding is often too low, that is why we have a cross subsidy problem.

And how do we keep Privates and Charters from cherry picking?

We know based on all the demographics shown above, charters/privates avoid special ed kids... Or special ed Parents avoid charther/privates. One or the other.

Jerry,
I'll cover your why isn't the system addressing the 35% in a different post.

Laurie said...

based on my experience it is true that charters may avoid the most significantly disabled students, which is a small a small percentage of the spec ed population. We don't tell parents that they cannot enroll, we infrequently tell parents that a large district such as Mpls offers better programs to meet the significant needs of their child.

Most spec ed students qualify with learning disabilities or behavior disorder, which we do serve. Charters I think are just slower to identify these students. Schools with a large population of ELL students maybe slower to identify these kids also and some cultures are more reluctant to have their children identified as having a disability.

John said...

But Minneapolis at 17%, Hiawatha at 9% and Banadiir at 4% is definitely a noticeable and significant variance.

jerrye92002 said...

Laurie, that is a great link and it does, indeed, describe the kind of school choice that Republicans, and Trump, have been promoting since forever. I think the "government oversight" should simply be in collecting and disseminating the results of the standardized tests, and of course administering the voucher system. I really don't like the standardized tests, either, because they lead to a standardized curriculum and "teaching to the test," but I understand they are necessary "consumer information."

As for the amount of the individual voucher, I think each school district should subtract the cost of all SE programs, and divide the rest to determine the amount of the voucher for that District. They could then supply the SE themselves with the existing budget, or "contract out" to specialized SE schools. Seems simple enough, and it solves the "cherry picking" problem as well, not to mention the potential behavior problems. That is, parents can enroll the kid in any school that will accept the voucher. IF your kid misbehaves to the point where the voucher school cannot correct or tolerate him, parents are handed back the voucher and told to find another school that probably wants a premium, above the voucher.

Where I disagree with the Post, as one might expect, is that I don't think there is anything wrong with a "universal" voucher. There are not nearly enough privates, charters, etc. to accommodate all of the students of failing schools now, so even with voucher in hand, most kids will end up right where they are until these new schools are built and staffed. That gives the publics time to mend their ways and improve before losing their customers, and those schools already doing well won't have to worry much at all. Those competing schools are going to be built in the areas with the most demand and the most potential profit-- where the voucher amount and the dissatisfaction rates are high. The only reason to start with vouchers "for the poor" are because those are the areas of greatest need, where civil rights have been wanting, and to appeal to liberal sensibilities for votes.

John said...

And just for comparison Wayazata at 10%. I assume Mpls is worse because many special needs can be aggravated or caused by parental behaviors before and while pregnant.

John said...

"divide the rest to determine the amount of the voucher for that District."

"told to find another school that probably wants a premium, above the voucher."

So you want the lucky and unlucky kids to get the same voucher amount?

And when the unlucky kids get kicked out of the for profit schools, you want the Parents to pay extra?

This is why the system is SO FLAWED...

John said...

And also the for profit school gets to keep the overly high voucher amount for all the lucky kids.

jerrye92002 said...

And John, the most frequently-stated reason for people moving is that they want to live in an area with "good schools." They do NOT say "any area away from bad schools," do they?

And notice they never seem to mention the cause of the bad school, which you imply are ESL students, poverty, or poor parenting? Nowadays it's not even "white flight" and is as likely to be black families with the means to move to a better school district.

John said...

Please remember that kids like mine are easy to teach. They came ready for kindergarten and they rarely if ever screw around, so you can have 40 of them in a classroom. Besides the fact that their Parents supply them with computers, tutoring , etc.

So I think the amount process will need to use the key factors we have been discussing.
English Proficiency
Special Education Level
Free & Red Lunch
Homeless / mobility
Parent(s)

John said...

The code is...

"Good Schools" = Low Poverty, Low English Learners, Many 2 Parent Families, no homeless, etc.

And you are correct... This is not a race issue...

jerrye92002 said...

" However the idea of blaming exclusively the school employees for not working miracles with the remaining unlucky kids and questionable Parents is not okay."

Sorry, I am going to do it anyway. The reason is simple. The schools did not ADAPT to the changing nature of their students. They are still applying 19th century pedagogy to 21st century learners. When you can get your body 3-D scanned and have a custom pair of blue jeans delivered in 48 hours, why are we insisting that 20 different students, all with different learning needs and styles, progress in perfect lockstep for years?

jerrye92002 said...

Sorry, I never had an Enigma machine, so when I hear "good schools" I think people mean "good schools." And I don't think anybody really cares WHY those schools are better than the ones they are leaving; they do not NEED to know or care nor would it matter if they did. It is a simple question of: would you rather have $1000 in cash or a swift kick in the teeth?

John said...

Here are some candid comments from Chicago Parents

jerrye92002 said...

"So I think the amount process will need to use the key factors we have been discussing.
English Proficiency
Special Education Level
Free & Red Lunch
Homeless / mobility
Parent(s)"

Or you could just take the amount the District spends, based on the State aid formula which supposedly accounts for all those things. The only difference I suggest is that the actual cost of SE get pulled out first, since the state (and federal) payment for that is inadequate.

John said...

You can stick your head in the sand if you want. But bad schools means schools where the student demographics are undesirable to the Parents.

By the way, I noticed you have avoided discussing those terribly incompetent inner city police departments on the newer post...

jerrye92002 said...

So, a demographically "bad" area is condemned to having bad schools, and there is nothing the schools can do about it? How about we just close them down? Otherwise, you can agree with me that "bad schools are bad schools" and the reason does not matter for purposes of that characterization.

As for the other, patience!

John said...

Of course it matters because most of them are not bad schools. They are schools that have too many unlucky kids with poor, incapable and/or negligent parents. Of course we can shut them down and spread those unlucky kids across other schools. If we keep their density low enough, the good students/parents and teachers can use modelling and peer pressure to help them.

The challenge though is that people in "good schools" do not want these kids and Parents to disrupt their school.

We had a similar problem in RDale as more folks from the East side moved to the West side schools during boundary changes. That is what triggered many of my daughter's friends to move further West.

John said...

By the way, I probably will work to ensure my grand kids some day do not attend a school district like RDale or any of the inner city schools...

These folks from Chicago explain it well.

"Not that the kids would get a bad education at Mather," Sandro says. "I can't speak to that intelligently. I think there are a ton of great teachers and excellent principals in CPS." But he was concerned about "other influences" that students in Chicago high schools regularly confront. He named drugs, gangs, violence, and classmates "who have zero direction, who disrupt the classroom.

"Those are factors I don't want my kids to have to deal with," he says. "If they're going to English class and they're worried about the kid behind them carrying a nine-millimeter gun, they're not thinking about what Romeo is saying in Shakespeare.""

"At Austin high school, which he attended after May elementary, the atmosphere was "not conducive for a student who wants to learn," he says. Police roamed the halls, but there were many gang fights anyway. "We were lucky we never had a shooting inside the school. But outside the doors, when that bell rang? There were definitely shots. We'd have to run back inside."

"Jackie thinks more has to be done to ensure the safety of CPS children. "The kids are exposed to a lot of things they shouldn't be exposed to," she says. "It comes to school with them. How do we address the kids that are selling drugs on the street and then bringing that in the school? The kids that are in gangs on the street, and it comes in the school? How do we make it so students don't have to choose sides?

"It's going to take years to fix," she says, "and I don't want my children to be there for the experimentation. They need to be educated now.""

jerrye92002 said...

"If we keep their density low enough, the good students/parents and teachers can use modelling and peer pressure to help them."

OK, great. Now who is going to EDUCATE them? Sure, you can dilute their negative influence on the school's test scores and graduation rates, but you haven't helped those individual kids, the ones who are already severely academically handicapped, one bit. The way we TEACH these kids has to change radically. What works in your school full of lucky kids simply will not work with the unlucky ones, and it doesn't matter whether you find them in a school full of them or alone in Edina.

jerrye92002 said...

"Police roamed the halls, but there were many gang fights anyway."

I will point out that these aren't "unlucky kids," these are criminals and it is a whole different problem. It isn't how do you educate unlucky kids, but how do you keep them safe while you do it, and that requires a cultural shift towards law and order, and away from the idleness and hopelessness that infects our urban cores. Both are problems that government must solve and, I am firmly convinced, that government at least partly created. In some ways that is good news. What government broke, it should be able to fix.

John said...

Jerry,
Peer pressure works both ways. 3 unlucky kids with questionable parent(s) in a classroom surrounded by 27 lucky academically focused kids with Parents who participate, volunteer and donate will slowly conform to the norm.

The unfortunate reality of even my daughter's middle and high schools is that as the poverty rate increased so did the criminal or near criminal behaviors. There is a reason why our schools have police officers on site. And why it is unlikely that my someday grand children will ever attend them. The Administration and Teachers are GREAT, the student body not so much so.

You can deny it but this is the reality of schools in urban areas.

"It comes to school with them. How do we address the kids that are selling drugs on the street and then bringing that in the school? The kids that are in gangs on the street, and it comes in the school? How do we make it so students don't have to choose sides?"

John said...

"aren't "unlucky kids," these are criminals and it is a whole different problem"...

Where do you think most criminals come from?

Do you for see my nurtured and coddled daughters who always have a Parent accessible, watching over them and nudging them towards "better" friends joining a gang someday?

Ironically the friends we have had to steer them around were the unlucky kids. Kids whose home life was chaotic, kids who had a lot of unsupervised time, kids whose Parent(s) did not effectively guide them, etc. Nothing the school could control unfortunately.

jerrye92002 said...

I think that is my point. There are "unlucky kids" and then there are BAD kids. The schools can help the unlucky kids if they just try, but the whole society needs to step in and stop these bad kids from disrupting the process. That means reforming the welfare system, re-establishing community norms and strong policing to hold a lid on "things" until the culture in these neighborhoods improves.

Have you ever seen the movie "Lean on Me"?

John said...

Sorry to say but there are almost no BAD kids... There are just kids who behave poorly... And they are more like to be unlucky kids because their parents are too busy, incompetent, neglectful, etc to raise them well and keep them busy.

Yes I saw "Lean on Me", and if you want a system that relies on bat carrying people who work all the time. I think you are going to be disappointed.

John said...

By the way, here is an update on that school.

jerrye92002 said...

"Paterson Eastside High is famous for its renaissance in the mid-1980s under the leadership of Joe Clark as principal."

It's ranking may be poor, but on individual statistics, it appears it is doing better than Minneapolis or St. Paul! Maybe we NEED a few bats?

I will agree there are no BAD kids when they are little, but they "go bad" like a bunch of bananas if you don't dissuade them early and often, and offer them a better path. The schools have to do a major part of it, and our government "safety net" and law enforcement have to offer the rest of the sticks and carrots.

John said...

Why do you think I am a huge proponent of Early Childhood education???

If you leave them with their "Baby Makers" and their questionable neighbors for 5 years those bananas become pretty brown and spotted before they even enter the school system. And it is real hard to un-ripen a banana...

It is best to set them on the right track before they are 5 years down the wrong one!!!

John said...

As for better / worse... Haven't you learned yet not to compare different schools, with different challenges with different tests?

I sure could not tell you which school is doing better from the links I provided.

jerrye92002 said...

I was just looking at graduation rates, which is pretty hard to confuse, being a single metric. And on that score Paterson is doing better. The proficiency scores, yes, are affected by what the test measures. Are you saying that the NJ test is that much easier than the MN test?

One other statistic was given and that was the SAT average score. Find that for the MSP or StP schools-- same test.

jerrye92002 said...

Suppose I agree with you for the moment. To whom are you going to give the job of "set[ting] them on the right track? The public schools, who have proven totally incapable of educating these same children after age 5 and, where it has been tried, age 4? Would it not be easier to enable and allow the PARENTS to do that parenting? And then operate the K-12 system with those expectations and the structures to ensure it?

John said...

Please remember that the Baby Makers and their local society are the ones browning the bananas... I have for years reminded you that the schools get few hours to undo all the damage...

Just imagine that for the first 25,000 waking hours(ie 5 x 365 x 14) of a child's life, the Mom / Dad and community have total control of the programming and hard wiring of the operating system of the child.

Then we give the school ~1,200 hrs per year to try to undo any damage and teach them. While Mom / Dad and the community still have ~3,800 hrs per year to reinforce the initial programming. There is a reason why Harlem Children Zone attacks communities so aggressively.

HCZ White Paper

"It is vitally important to establish a pervasive presence in the individual community where
you work. Some non-profits offer a limited number of disconnected programs in one
neighborhood or many programs scattered throughout several neighborhoods. However,
the effects of a few good, or even excellent, programs are easily diluted in otherwise underserved

neighborhoods. To bring about widespread change it is necessary to work on a scale
large enough to create a tipping point in a community’s cultural norms, a threshold beyond
which a shift occurs away from destructive patterns and toward constructive goals. To
achieve this tipping point, we believe the collective programs offered by a non-profit must
reach about 65% of the total number of children in the area served. "

jerrye92002 said...

And I'm not objecting to that approach! I am simply saying that the government entitlement system creates dysfunctional families and that the schools do not address those dysfunctions and attempt to remedy them. I simply say that government has more control over the schools and can "fix" them more quickly and easily than turning 50 years of government-induced societal rot into fertile topsoil for growing successful young people. If we want to act now, and we are long overdue, we start with the schools.