These 2 important topics got little discussion on MP, so I thought I would give them a plug here. To me they both stress the importance of society needing to take a stronger hand in pressuring Baby Maker(s) to be more responsible Parent(s). Kids will not learn if they are not at school.
And the fact that when those adults are not, the school personnel unfortunately need to fulfill that need with low student ratios and a high amount of student tracking / guiding / counseling / holding accountable. Which of course explains part of the why MPS is so expensive. Thoughts?
MP MPS Graduation Rates Up
MP What No One Talks About: Chronic Absences
MP Chronic Absence List
And no I am not calling the Baby Maker(s) evil, bad, etc. The unfortunate reality is that often the adults and peers in their life modeled ineffectual behaviors and limiting beliefs, so that is what they think is normal. Without society demanding learning and improvement from them, they will likely propagate how they were raised...
Remember the sad story a personal coach told me. He was in Chicago and saw a young girl with her Grandma, so he asked the girl what she wanted to do when she grew up. Unfortunately the Grandma jumped in and answered. "She is going to grow up to be a welfare Mom in the projects just like her Mama". And we wonder why kids have a hard time escaping poverty? This has to STOP.
Thoughts?
Ps. Please remember that I am not trying to be mean with the term Baby Maker(s). I just needed a term to differentiate capable responsible mature self disciplined Parents from the other adults who make babies when they can not afford or are incapable of raising them well. Unfortunately many Baby Maker(s) are still children themselves in many ways.
And the fact that when those adults are not, the school personnel unfortunately need to fulfill that need with low student ratios and a high amount of student tracking / guiding / counseling / holding accountable. Which of course explains part of the why MPS is so expensive. Thoughts?
MP MPS Graduation Rates Up
MP What No One Talks About: Chronic Absences
MP Chronic Absence List
And no I am not calling the Baby Maker(s) evil, bad, etc. The unfortunate reality is that often the adults and peers in their life modeled ineffectual behaviors and limiting beliefs, so that is what they think is normal. Without society demanding learning and improvement from them, they will likely propagate how they were raised...
Remember the sad story a personal coach told me. He was in Chicago and saw a young girl with her Grandma, so he asked the girl what she wanted to do when she grew up. Unfortunately the Grandma jumped in and answered. "She is going to grow up to be a welfare Mom in the projects just like her Mama". And we wonder why kids have a hard time escaping poverty? This has to STOP.
Thoughts?
Ps. Please remember that I am not trying to be mean with the term Baby Maker(s). I just needed a term to differentiate capable responsible mature self disciplined Parents from the other adults who make babies when they can not afford or are incapable of raising them well. Unfortunately many Baby Maker(s) are still children themselves in many ways.
37 comments:
Pardon me, but it still seems to me that you are calling people who have children irresponsible, stupid, evil, etc. People like to have babies. Are those in abject poverty in the Third World evil or ignorant for having families? Why should it be so here?
And it still sounds to me like blaming the victim. Why should a child or a parent get enthusiastic about school attendance when it is essentially a waste of time, with no education taking place? You see it every day in classes, where a child will get behind for some reason and, unless they receive some help in order to catch up, they lose interest and eventually become troublemakers of some sort. You may want to blame the child or parent for not "getting it" the first time around, but do you not have to blame the school for not picking up that they need some extra attention in that particular area?
Jerry,
You can play both sides of this issue as long as you want to, but...
The same people who you accuse of being unwise and irresponsible by having regular pre-marital sex, and getting pregnant... The same people you don't think are capable of deciding to abort or not... Well they do not become more responsible and smarter when the kid is delivered. They are still likely young, immature and irresponsible, and now they are really broke, tired and stressed.
But please go ahead and keep believing that somehow having the baby pass through the cervix magically makes that immature adult smarter, more responsible, more self disciplined, etc.
I'll keep advocating for free Long Acting Reversible Contraception and that the Baby Mamas and Papas be forced to get parenting education, ensure their child(ren) are at school, their child(ren) are fed/washed adequately, their child(ren) do their homework, etc.
What always amazes me is that you usually say that society is not responsible for the child(ren), that is the responsibility of the Momma and Papa... And yet you have no ideas on how to hold them accountable for that responsibility. And responsibility with no accountability, really is not responsibility.
I only use the Black Single Parent example because that 72% number still floors me.
Here is a very interesting piece From Black News.
Now as for "irresponsible, stupid, evil, etc". I don't think these folks are evil or even stupid for that matter, because stupid is just a poor word with many meanings. But I think irresponsible, dependent, unaware, entitled, etc are some words I would use. The following comes from the link, what words would use to describe a woman who is working in fast food and having her 4th baby from her 3rd man? What words would you use to describe her choices?
"Sitting in Carroll's waiting room, Sherhonda Mouton watches all the babies with the tender expression of a first-time mother, even though she's about to have her fourth child. Inside her purse is a datebook containing a handwritten ode to her children, titled "One and Only." It concludes:
"You make the hardest tasks seem light with everything you do.
"How blessed I am, how thankful for my one and only you."
Mouton, 30, works full time as a fast-food manager on the 3 p.m. to 1 a.m. shift. She's starting classes to become a food inspector.
"My children are what keep me going, every day," she says. "They give me a lot of hope and encouragement." Her plans for them? "College, college, college."
On Mouton's right shoulder, the name of her oldest child, Zanevia, is tattooed around a series of scars. When Zanevia was an infant, Mouton's drug-addled fiance came home one night and started shooting. Mouton was hit with six bullets; Zanevia took three and survived.
"This man was the love of my life," Mouton says. He's serving a 60-year sentence. Another man fathered her second and third children; Mouton doesn't have good things to say about him. The father of her unborn child? "He's around. He helps with all the kids."
She does not see marriage in her future.
"It's another obligation that I don't need," Mouton says. "A good man is hard to find nowadays."
Mouton thinks it's a good idea to encourage black women to wait for marriage to have children. However, "what's good for you might not be good for me." Yes, some women might need the extra help of a husband. "I might do a little better, but I'm doing fine now. I'm very happy because of my children."
"I woke up today at six o'clock," she says. "My son was rubbing my stomach, and my daughter was on the other side. They're my angels."
And if man #3 leaves, and she keeps working the evening shift... How often will her kids be late for school or absent?
Babies do give unconditional love to people who really want / need it, but unfortunately they require a lot more love, time and effort in return. Just imaging being a poor single Mom with 4 kids that she chose to have...
I don't think the problems of our schools are all that centered on the kids who choose not to go to them.
--Hiram
Hiram, Then what do you think is the problem?
"and that the Baby Mamas and Papas be =forced= to get parenting education, ensure their child(ren) are at school, their child(ren) are fed/washed adequately, their child(ren) do their homework, etc."
Sig Heil!
Now I will revise my opinion if you say folks should be /offered/ these opportunities. Again, they are "forced" to send their children to school now and don't do it because it doesn't do any good. Some of these kids would learn more at home watching PBS.
I think there are lots of problems. And there are many ways of measuring the problems we have. And while our schools like all complex institutions could be improved, I really don't think they are at the heart of the problem. Schools and teachers really do the best they can, especially when they are allowed to do their job.
--Hiram
That's the key, right there. teachers are doing the best they can within union rules, state rules, district rules (like the no-discipline policy), budget constraints, curricular requirements, and on and on. The best they can is, in most cases, not the best they COULD do.
And "our schools" are NOT the heart of the problem. But SOME schools are. When you see a 2:1 difference in academic achievement between two schools spending the same amount per pupil, it's hard to believe otherwise. Assuming, of course, that you believe money drives achievement. And if not, it's even worse.
Hiram,
The Teachers and the system were left alone for the first 40 years of the war on poverty... And their efforts FAILED many any children as NCLB finally showed.
So are you saying you want to stop monitoring and grading them?
That has not worked so well...
Jerry,
I still haven't heard how you are planning to hold Parent's accountable for the responsibility that you believe is theirs alone?
I have Hiram saying just trust the Teachers and close your eyes...
I have you saying just trust the Parents and close your eyes...
Both of which have led to millions of children trapped in poverty...
I think America can do better.
Simple answer, I do not. But let us try it your way. The police knock at the door and say "pardon us, Miss Babymaker, but apparently you missed the last parent-teacher conference and have not been helping your son with his homework. You are under arrest." Never mind that the poor woman dropped out of school after eighth grade and only reads at a third grade level, and could not pass the grade her son is in. She works nights so cannot go to conferences, but 30 days in jail will sure straighten her out! Of course, her son will continue to fail in school because he has not been given the resources necessary for himto succeed, either at home or at school.
Now my preference would be that a teacher, administrator or social worker would appear at the door (sometime when she is home) and say something like, "ma'am, your son Darren seems to be struggling in school, and we would like your permission to start him in a special program we have after school, to give him the extra help he needs. Also, we'd like to talk to you sometime, at your convenience, about how you might help him more here at home." Now, no matter which way she reacts, she has taken responsibility for the situation. Done.
I have no desire to put her in jail... I was more interested in reducing her welfare or tax credits... Kind of like Wisconsin did to encourage the people to make good choices. (ie that carrot you mentioned)
You are going to have to help me understand how listening to people who come to her door is taking responsibility for her child(ren)?
"Now, no matter which way she reacts, she has taken responsibility for the situation. Done."
Now I'll ask the simple question, who is going to pay to have the social workers and Teachers going around talking to the Mamas / Papas in the evening?
If the Mama / Papa does not change their behaviors / choices, will these folks have any carrots or sticks in their pockets?
She is given the responsibility to make good choices by actually offering her a choice other than the situation she now has. She can make that choice and becomes responsible for the consequences, regardless of which way she chooses. Now, if she chooses badly, in this case regarding her child's education, I don't think sticks will help, and she has already been offered the carrot unless you want to pay kids to get good grades or somesuch. As for who pays to make these calls, I think it's trivial and should come out of the school budget, but I am also willing to pay for the extra tutoring or whatever, provided it gets real results. Frankly, with the amount being spent in these inner city schools-- more than twice the state average-- I would think they could do THAT out of the existing budget, too.
Now, you can view WI workfare any way you want. I think of it as a carrot, just like the offer of extra tutoring. The only difference is that if you turn down tutoring you lose nothing. If you turn down work you lose your check. If you take the job you keep your check, so it's a carrot if you take it, and a stick if you don't. You have to offer the carrot first, and it is then the recipient's responsibility to decide-- You've given them a choice that they didn't have before.
I think you are forgetting that the MPS students already have a choice of magnets, charters, open enrollment and moving to a different district... So apparently the Mamas and Papas are already responsible...
You do have a funny idea of what being responsible means... I like this piece...
Responsibility without Accountability
"Delegating authority and responsibility without attaching accountability and consequences for failing to perform is pointless."
I think you are imagining some system of "choice" that is fully available to all students& parents. It doesn't exist because all of these "choices," as far as I know, have enrollment limits, which means some kids do not get the choice, and there are other obstacles. Almost none of these parents have the means to afford moving to a different district and those that do, you criticize them for it. That's no choice at all.
I don't think your piece really applies in this situation, either. You claim these folks are irresponsible and unaccountable already. You have denied them the authority to choose-- in this case a school-- and protected them from the consequences of bad choices without offering them a good one. Let's just have a simple system of "the money follows the student" and let competition work its magic.
s
We will continue to agree to disagree, I think society should hold Parents and Teachers accountable for fulfilling their responsibilities...
Sticking my head in the sand and thinking wishfully is not in my nature.
We don't have to disagree if you can show me what "accountability" you have in mind that will be effective at producing the desired result and doesn't involve any nasty sticks.
I think you get more flies with carrots.
Oh, I'm sorry, you said "society" should hold... I thought you said "government," who is the party responsible now-- thru public schools and public welfare. Same thing, though, can you tell me what tools "society" has to enforce its wishes? without resorting to government coercion?
The problem I have with accountability is that there are all kinds of ways to measure stuff, and any time you choose one of them, you incorporate both it's assumptions and it's policy choices. Take graduation rate. To begin with, it evaluates a school on the basis of what it doesn't do, as opposed to what it does. Schools just don't educate the kids who don't attend them. And really, asking schools to make the case for education to hormonal teenagers involves the expenditure of a lot of resources that could be devoted to the kids who actually want to be in school. The fact is, if higher graduation rates are the goal, there are plenty of ways to hype them which have no tendency at all to actually make schools better.
The drive to spend more resources to keep kids in school is arguably sound. But if that's the policy, we need to understand it comes with a cost. The kids who are on the edge of dropping out of schools are very likely the kids who are dragging down achievement test numbers. They are very likely the kids who are the most expensive to educate, who need things like special education and special tutoring and what not. I, personally, am fine with things, but after telling me we need to work harder to keep kids in school, I just am not that interested in hearing that the kids you wanted us to keep, are expensive and difficult to teach.
--Hiram
Jerry,
So if we cut all of the welfare, medical, housing and food benefits in half, and give the Mamas / Papas the opportunity to earn them back by making sure the kids are in school, clean, fed, homework complete, behaving well, listening well, etc every day...
Is that a carrot or a stick?
I am told that healthy kids do better in school. But that might just be a coincidence.
--Hiram
And I am certain the Jerry's "responsible Parents" will step up to the plate and be self disciplined to ensure their children don't lose anything given this opportunity to earn extra cash for doing what they should be doing in the first place. :-)
"s that a carrot or a stick?" It is a big stick, so long as you require them to do something they cannot do, like help with homework that is beyond them, or making their kids learn something in a school that will not teach them.
As for as pay for "what they should be doing," that is the same problem. Until you give these parents an actual choice of sending their kid to a school where they might learn something, giving them extra money so the kid continues to be short-changed is foolish on our end. Of course they will take the money, maybe even jump through the silly hoops, but it's unlikely to make much difference until the schools start getting carrots and sticks based on performance.
As I said earlier...
I have Hiram saying just trust the Teachers and close your eyes...
I have you saying just trust the Parents and close your eyes...
Both of which have led to millions of children trapped in poverty...
I think America can do better.
I have Hiram saying just trust the Teachers and close your eyes...
Should we close our eyes as to what's happening in our schools, as I would argue?
Or should we get involved with what's happening in our schools as others might assert?
Is it actually possible that I might be wrong?
--Hiram
Yes. You could be wrong. :-)
Kids will be left behind until we improve the education system and hold people accountable for being responsible parents.
So close! It should be "kids will be left behind until we improve the education system and offer people the opportunity to be responsible parents." How well is it working to FORCE people to be "responsible," compared with helping and allowing people to be responsible?
Kids will be left behind until we improve the education system and hold people accountable for being responsible parents.
Well, then I guess we should work harder to persuade students to stay in school. Would cupcakes on Tuesdays do the trick? How about the improved chances of getting into Harvard?
--Hiram
Hiram,
Now you are getting Jerry's "carrots for all" proposal.
Jerry,
No one is even trying to force people to be responsible Parents. The Liberals think everyone has a right to have as many kids as they want whether they can afford them or not... And the Conservatives seem to believe that everyone is a wise and capable Parent because they can have unprotected intercourse.
No wonder we have a continuing massive generational poverty and academic achievement gap. Remember "Sherhonda Mouton" above, broke and having her 4th baby from her 3rd man. It is sweet that the children meet her emotional needs... But what about the needs of the children?
Please explain the difference between "forcing them to be responsible" and "holding them accountable." I'm failing to see the distinction. Maybe what we should consider are the "incentives" in every government poverty or education program? What is the incentive in the current welfare system? To have more children to get more money, to NOT work to avoid cuts in benefits, to not care about getting your kids to school because they don't learn anything anyway, or because it isn't even safe, etc. Compare that with an incentive that says, you can have a job and make MORE money because you can keep receiving benefits, we'll arrange child care, your kids can go to school someplace where the ARE safe and getting an education with extra help if needed, etc. People will react to the incentives (and disincentives) presented to them. They make those decisions intelligently. All government (acting for "society") needs to do is to make sure those choices are PRESENTED intelligently.
One rule I have used throughout my work is that we make it easier for people to follow the correct procedure/process than to work around it. And that getting them to success at greater rates, because of it, is its own reward, driving out the old bad practice.
I volunteer at a School and I don't think the problem is with the schools in general. What I see as a disconnect is the parent involvement in the student. The school teach everybody at a level but if the child hasn't learned basic fundamentals prior to even going to school they are playing catch-up. The baby makers tend to not choose or do not have the ability to help their child make up that difference and they get in a slope of regressing compared to their peers. The school district that I am at tries to blame the teachers for not helping the socio-economic disadvantaged, while not blaming the parents who really need to be more active.
I would consider my niece a baby maker. She has had three fathers to six children. It's annoying for me to see this. She thinks she's a good parent but I see someone stretching herself out and not helping her kids at all, while relying on the state for assistance. She is white but all the fathers have been black. She came from a family that had a lazy father and the mother was too busy working and unattached.
Mr Independent,
Excellent comments... That is what I have noticed also.
It is very unfortunate but true.
My simple belief is that ~65% of the academic achievement gap resides with the Parents. And ~35% resides with the school system.
Jerry,
Yes "forcing them to be responsible" and "holding them accountable" are pretty much the same thing.
You say the parents should be responsible... And if we are paying them with our tax dollars to help them with the task they chose to take on, let's ensure they are completing the task well.
And yes I am fine using incentives, but I am also fine using penalties.
"And if we are paying them with our tax dollars to help them with the task..."
There is the disconnect between the reality and what I consider the actual solution. If we are expending tax dollars on these parents and kids, then shouldn't we be expending them on things that will actually "help them with the task"? Just sending them a check or handing them food stamps doesn't do diddly. It offers no guidance and no opportunity. If the parent doesn't know, or isn't able, to teach the kid numbers and letters, then where do the kids learn it if not in school? Every factory has "incoming inspection" and will sometimes have a "rework line" to improve incoming material. Why would we not do the same with schools? Mississippi can do it, why can't Minnesota?
MN does Kindergarten readiness screening, and kids get extra help when necessary.
Unfortunately without an active, capable and supportive partner at home, sometimes it is not enough.
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