In the G2A Unite the Right post we have been discussing who was at the rally and why. Especially after Trump doubled down on his belief that both sides were responsible for the escalation. Here is some of the discussion.
DP Unite the Right Attracts More Radical Attention
NPR Collection of Groups
SLPC Bickering Galore
Now apparently the Liberal logic is that if you choose to join a broad scoped protest... You are now officially part of the worst faction who participated in the protest... So with this in mind, does that mean that Liberals who participate in a protest where folks from Antifa show up in black masks and break stuff are now full fledge supporters of political violence?
I will never understand the desire by both the far Left and far Right to Stereotype groups and be Prejudiced... :-(
"So you are all absolutely certain that every protester there was a neo-nazi, skin head, racist? Source please. It just seems to me that you are dehumanizing them, just as you accuse them of doing." G2AThen I provided some links that explained the diversity of groups that were gathered in town that day.
"OK, let's assume that a person felt that from a purely historical standpoint that the statue should stay and said person was not racist or antisemitic. If you show up and see that the march isn't a bunch of like-minded folks, but rather a bunch of neo-Nazis, why do you stay around and join with them? Who says, "Hey, I bet these dudes with swastikas and yelling the n-word and talking baout how Jews control everything are just the right people to help make sure the Confederate status stays up?" Sean
"There is no way an intelligent, non racist person should / would join that rally with neo nazis and the KKK. If one joins them they share in the blame for their views and actions. The racist views were central to this demonstration and not from some tiny faction. Someone could take their deep love of confederate history and write a letter to the editor about don't remove the statue." Laurie
DP Unite the Right Attracts More Radical Attention
NPR Collection of Groups
SLPC Bickering Galore
Now apparently the Liberal logic is that if you choose to join a broad scoped protest... You are now officially part of the worst faction who participated in the protest... So with this in mind, does that mean that Liberals who participate in a protest where folks from Antifa show up in black masks and break stuff are now full fledge supporters of political violence?
I will never understand the desire by both the far Left and far Right to Stereotype groups and be Prejudiced... :-(
49 comments:
Your own link says "They're quite open that their long-term goal is the creation of a white ethno state. That is, the creation of a state that would be racially homogenous"
Who, exactly, are the "good guys" in this movement?
Just a mo. If we should not tar everybody in a protest with the same brush, then how to the entire Far Left and Far Right become guilty of stereotyping and prejudice? For example, can one believe the federal budget should be radically cut, and be black, or allow black people to join in common cause to that end?
I will admit the whole fracas bores/frustrates/annoys me and I try to pay little attention. It's just more left-manufactured faux outrage as far as I am concerned. I believe it takes two sides to make a rumble and neither one must be on the side of the angels to have it occur. It was a difference of opinion over a bit of over-the-top political correctness and should have played out in that way, not the way it did. Too bad someone has to be killed before we take notice of the great violence being done to our civil rights and our common civility. And I'm not sure that is what is happening even now.
Sean,
Maybe you should not cherry pick... Did you do that intentionally? Or did you totally miss the point that many of the Alt Right folks are against the Racist folks?
"In recent months, Caron and Smith have shifted their attention to supporting Kenny Jackson, an outspoken independent candidate for City Council who ran as a Republican in 2004. Jackson, who is African-American, also has been critical of the council’s decision to remove the Lee statue, which is being contested in court.
According to Smith, Kessler’s continued associations with far-right activists such as Spencer, Dickson and groups like the Traditionalist Worker Party and the Warlocks Motorcycle Club is getting “out of control.”
“He’s affiliated himself with people who are — to put it mildly — ideologically distasteful,” Smith said. “And now he’s associated with people involved with organized crime. It’s turning into a rabbit hole. And I want nothing to do with that.”
With Spencer’s previous calls for the creation of a “white ethno-state” and the TWP’s association with the “neo-Nazi” National Socialist Movement, Caron said: “I’m not trying to work with people like that.”
Similarly to Spencer, Dickson has advocated for “a White Ethno-State on the North American continent, a project analogous to the creation of Israel in the first half of the 20th century,” according to Spencer’s National Policy Institute. At a 2013 American Renaissance conference, Spencer suggested that a “peaceful ethnic-cleansing” could be carried out to realize those ends.
Formerly the secretary of Kessler’s conservative group, Unity and Security for America — which advocates for tighter restrictions on immigration from “non-Western” nations — Smith said he was not involved in the May 13 alt-right rally and quit working with Kessler shortly thereafter.
Caron said he’s wary of Kessler becoming more embroiled in “identity politics.” He also said he was not aware that the May 13 rally was being planned.
“Obviously, the way that Jason’s been lately, he’s made it more about race,” Caron said. “Unfortunately, that’s why I’ve had to distance myself. I’m not into identity politics.”
"Formerly the secretary of Kessler’s conservative group, Unity and Security for America — which advocates for tighter restrictions on immigration from “non-Western” nations"
Which is totally not racist.
And supposedly all of Caron, Smith, and Jackson didn't attend the event.
"I believe it takes two sides to make a rumble and neither one must be on the side of the angels to have it occur."
Yes. Just like WWII was fought by two equally abhorrent sides.
Moose
When I go to a Democratic Party event, people who see me there quite reasonably assume that I am a Democrat. If someone goes to a Nazi event, it's quite reasonable to assume they are a Nazi.
--Hiram
Show me the good guys.
VICE: Charlottesville Race and Terror
Sean,
Yes. One faction of the alt right is working to distance themselves from Kessler.
Hiram,
I think you have that about correct. I see people who attend this as members of the Alt Right. Thus the name of the event "Unite the Right". Now as my source explains, people were invited that many did not want there.
Now if you march in a Democratic event and the Antifa folks are there in Black masks destroying things. Does that mean you are supportive of their beliefs?
All,
Now it is likely that there were many Racists in attendance, however I still have seen nothing to show that it was everyone. Even looking at the Vice link video, where they are trying to make it look bad... There were people just walking along. No chanting, no weapons, etc.
The question is who takes the video and what are each of us looking for when we watch it? If you are looking for whacko violent alt right folks that is likely what you will see.
Jerry,
Please note... I said they both have "desire" to do so. If you question this, watch Fox news when they are reporting on Liberal protest.
Moose,
I do not think anyone is saying that both groups are equally repugnant / abhorrent. I am saying:
- both groups caused the escalation and violence.
- both groups had good people and violent people there.
How do you define alt-right? What, to you, distinguishes "alt-right" from "white nationalist" or "neo-Nazi"? Why is it OK to be alt-right?
Who, exactly, are the "good guys" in the alt-right movement?
What the heck IS "alt-right," anyway? Do they give out membership cards? To my knowledge it is a boogeyman fabricated by the radical left to enable them to claim victimhood status and justify their violence against people who disagree politically. If you are alt-right it is apparently OK to shout you down or set you on fire. Who are the real purveyors of Nazi Party tactics, here?
Now if you march in a Democratic event and the Antifa folks are there in Black masks destroying things. Does that mean you are supportive of their beliefs?
I don't really have a problem criticizing Democrats or people who claim to be somewhere on my side of the political spectrum. And to be fair, Republicans find it pretty easy to condemn Nazi's. It's the leader of their party who is working so hard to find assorted equivalencies seen nowhere else beside the darker corners of Fox News. The moral question here is one for Republicans. What has gone so wrong with their party they could nominate and even elect to the extent he was elected, someone like Donald Trump. It's an issue that goes much deeper within the Republican Party than Trump himself. And of course, the problem isn't limited to the Republicans. The election of Donald Trump is a visible symbol of our national decline.
--Hiram
Hiram,
I do agree with you here...
"What has gone so wrong with their party they could nominate and even elect to the extent he was elected, someone like Donald Trump?"
Trump's core seems so desperate and naive that they believed his unrealistic promises, and forgot that character does matter. And many of them still do.
Sean,
It looks like a pretty big tent.
I really do not know their make up or beliefs. However since two of their leaders are backing a Black conservative politician, I guess many are not racist in normal terms.
Though yes many are "bad dudes".
Jerry,
Remember my previous statement...
Liberals believe in freedom of speech as long as the speaker agrees with them... :-)
Yes, What About the “Alt-Left”?
What the counter-protesters Trump despises were actually doing in Charlottesville last weekend.
Hiram, I am still greatly puzzled by what you seem to believe are Trump's many great character flaws, or terrible misdeeds. I am looking and cannot find any. It all seems like the fevered imaginings of disappointed leftists. Now, if you think that left is better and Trump moves right, I can understand the disappointment, even angst, but to ascribe those simple political differences to underlying character flaws that would make Satan envious doesn't seem rational to me.
Right now this whole story is making me sad. Maybe if you stopped trying to score debating points, John, you could understand the alt right for who they are and drop the very false equivalence argument re the counter protesting left, including the antifa. I think your love of your own logic is making you blind to the truth of this story. I currently see you as more ignorant than racist.
Laurie, I understand your being upset by this whole crazy circus. The key to me seems to me to be in the repeated phrases "we tried to stop them from entering the park" and "antifa saved us by confronting..." So I ask: which is more likely to result in a violent altercation, people saying stuff no matter how stupid or offensive, or physically trying to prevent them from saying it?
It seems quite clear that when the antifa "stepped in" it was not to join the peaceful opposition, but to provoke the violence. Then they blame the victims of their tactics. Despicable.
It definitely is interesting how differently people can look at the same event and come to very different conclusions.
I will respect your conclusions though I disagree with them and see them strongly biased, please do the same.
maybe its time for a new topic. Here is a post / link from K. Drum that I found interesting, maybe because it paints a picture or media consumption more favorable t the left. This will give you something new to argue against if it interests you. a link is provided to the full report if you don't like Drum's brief summary.
Fake News: It’s Mostly a Right-Wing Phenomenon
Just when I think I am done with this topic I come across something else interesting. This HBO news report adds to my feelings of sadness while contributing to a bit more fear, for the country and the people who put themselves out there to confront the alt right. The guy at the end of vice news is especially creepy.
This Vice News Documentary from Charlottesville Is Horrifying
also, I just can't respect defending marching with neo nazis . It will be interesting to see what polling reveals about how the country views the incidents in VA and Trumps response to the hate and violence. I am hoping at least 2/3 are appalled.
I agree it was horrifying, but likely for different reasons.
What would you think of a counter-protester who sprayed you with mace during an approved rally? Is that acceptable from your Liberal perspective?
Or reaching out and hitting the marchers?
Now I agree that the skin head folks are deranged, however it seemed to me that they exercised much more self control than the counter protesters.
What a mess our concept of civil process and law/ order has become.
"also, I just can't respect defending marching with neo nazis ."
As the noted philosopher Chris Rock said, "if 10 guys think it's OK to hang with 1 Nazi, they just became 11 Nazis".
Good people don't march with Nazis. Period.
Sorry then, I prioritize free speech and law /order pretty high. Our society suffers when people are allowed to physically attack others who have different beliefs. No matter how crazy they are.
So if a bunch of antifa guys show up and join your peaceful counter-demonstration, you abandon the demonstration? Sorry, but when I join a parade I don't care who else is in it, if it is a parade promoting something I want to promote. An idea is not responsible for the people that believe it.
Also another story today, unconfirmed, that the leader of the "alt-right" demonstration was an Obama and Occupy guy from the far left. If true, would that change the thinking about who was right and who was wrong?
And something else... What the heck difference does it make what Trump does or says, within some wide bounds of propriety? This was a mob on one side and a mob on the other side and one of them chose to try to kill people. Anything that went "wrong" here is entirely the fault of the people involved, and even without regard to their intentions in being there. There were "innocent bystanders" whose motives were pure, but SOMEBODY drove that car, and SOMEBODY hit somebody else, with a sign or fist or club. Those are the people who need to be pilloried in the press, not "some guy" 100s of miles away who at most saw it on TV.
And while it might be interesting, even modestly important, to know who on which side "threw the first punch," what I would really like to know is who, on which side, came there with the INTENT to throw a punch?
Jerry ,
The biggest challenge is what was the "The Unite the Right" march was promoting?
It looks like it started out innocently enough and then was taken over by a bunch of White Supremacists.
The question I am pondering is how many were there for what???
The folks like Sean insist it was promoting neo-Nazis, where as it seems pretty murky and mixed to me. There were people with guns marching, but there were even more just normal people walking also.
But there can be no doubt that the Alt Left was physically attacking the marchers...
where did you get your idea that the skin heads exercised much more self control? from your imagination? Is it because they had a permit to march that they are allowed to violently push through a line of clergy?
Did you read my slate link with first hand reports from the front line of clergy counter-protesting at the park? Here is one first person report:
Brandy Daniels
Postdoctoral fellow at the Luce Project on Religion and Its Publics at UVA
It was basically impossible to miss the antifa for the group of us who were on the steps of Emancipation Park in an effort to block the Nazis and alt-righters from entering. Soon after we got to the steps and linked arms, a group of white supremacists—I’m guessing somewhere between 20-45 of them—came up with their shields and batons and bats and shoved through us. We tried not to break the line, but they got through some of us—it was terrifying, to say the least—shoving forcefully with their shields and knocking a few folks over. We strengthened our resolve and committed to not break the line again. Some of the anarchists and anti-fascist folks came up to us and asked why we let them through and asked what they could do to help. Rev. Osagyefo Sekou talked with them for a bit, explaining what we were doing and our stance and asking them to not provoke the Nazis. They agreed quickly and stood right in front of us, offering their help and protection.
Less than 10 minutes later, a much larger group of the Nazi alt-righters come barreling up. My memory is again murky on the details. (I was frankly focused on not bolting from the scene and/or not soiling myself—I know hyperbole is common in recounting stories like these, but I was legitimately very worried for my well-being and safety, so I was trying to remember the training I had acquired as well as, for resolve, to remember why I was standing there.) But it had to have been at least 100 of them this go around. I recall feeling like I was going to pass out and was thankful that I was locked arms with folks so that I wouldn’t fall to the ground before getting beaten. I knew that the five anarchists and antifa in front of us and the 20 or so of us were no match for the 100-plus of them, but at this point I wasn’t letting go.
At that point, more of the anarchists and antifa milling nearby saw the huge mob of the Nazis approach and stepped in. They were about 200-300 feet away from us and stepped between us (the clergy and faith leaders) and the Nazis. This enraged the Nazis, who indeed quickly responded violently. At this point, Sekou made a call that it was unsafe—it had gotten very violent very fast—and told us to disperse quickly.
While one obviously can’t objectively say what a kind of alternate reality or “sliding doors”–type situation would have been, one can hypothesize or theorize. Based on what was happening all around, the looks on their faces, the sheer number of them, and the weapons they were wielding, my hypothesis or theory is that had the antifa not stepped in, those of us standing on the steps would definitely have been injured, very likely gravely so. On Democracy Now, Cornel West, who was also in the line with us, said that he felt that the antifa saved his life. I didn’t roll my eyes at that statement or see it as an exaggeration—I saw it as a very reasonable hypothesis based on the facts we had."
about - What would you think of a counter-protester who sprayed you with mace during an approved rally? That is unacceptable if the marcher is not beating someone .
"The biggest challenge is what was the "The Unite the Right" march was promoting?"
It's a mystery we'll probably never be able to solve...
"On the Charlottesville #UniteTheRight Discord server, members ranging from “Baked Alaska” (Tim “Treadstone” Gionet) and neo-nazi DailyStormer editor Andrew Anglin, to members of bigotry-advocating groups such as Identity Europa, American Vanguard and other neo-nazis, shared disturbing and violent imagery mocking those injured and killed in the car attack against anti-fascist counter-protesters. ...
On the Discord server, far-right militants also discussed bringing more guns to their next rally, blamed the local police and government for being “communist”, discussed doxing anti-fascist protesters they’re targeting, stated they see recent events as the beginning of civil war they want to start"
LEAKED: Chats of #UniteTheRight Charlottesville Organizers Exposed on Discord App
“The purpose of this is to gain sympathy for pro-white advocacy as well as a general uniting of the right wing against these communists who are gonna come shut this down, okay… Going up to, like, MSNBC and them interviewing you and you saying like, “yeah, I actually think we should kill every non-white on the planet”…like again, I don’t necessarily like have an issue with listening to that on a podcast or whatever, but if you are gonna do something like that, even if it’s your true belief, that’s not the objective of this rally, so we should try to keep it with the objective of trying to gain sympathy for a pro-white rally.” – Participant in August 10, 2017 “Unite the Right” Discord voice chat
LEAKED: The Planning Meetings that Led Up to Neo-Nazi Terrorism in Charlottesville
"The folks like Sean insist it was promoting neo-Nazis, where as it seems pretty murky and mixed to me. There were people with guns marching, but there were even more just normal people walking also."
"Normal people" don't walk with Nazis!
I'm sorry, but the notion that the proprietor of this site -- who loves to strut around like a preening moral peacock and tell poor people or blacks how they are unvirtuous-- is going to excuse that sort of behavior is amazing! Or maybe the "Purity" listed under "G2A Principles" means something else than how it's described. Is a stupid statue in a park really worth walking with a bunch of racists and anti-Semites? Is yelling "white lives matter" really a good strategy for defending historical remnants of the Confederacy?
(The whole notion that we should be treating the Confederacy as some noble effort that should be honored is patently absurd, too, but I'll let that go for now.)
I have moral lines that I won't cross. If I take a position on an issue and find that Nazis think I've got the right idea, that would cause me to rethink my position. And I sure as heck ain't going to align myself with people who lie on the other side of that moral line.
So, yeah, if I'm at a protest and a bunch of antifa folks start raising havoc, I'm going to disassociate myself from them -- whether it's siccing law enforcement on them or going home or whatever else is appropriate at the moment. I'm not going to let my good name be sullied by associating it with people who engage in repugnant behavior.
Laurie,
Try watching the vice video and imagine yourself as the legal protester walking through a gauntlet of curses, blockades, rocks, pepper spray. Etching
where was this "gauntlet of curses, blockades, rocks, pepper spray. Etching " other than your imagination? Every report that I have seen was that the melees occurred when the neo nazis were charging and trying to push through the line of clergy at the park.
Just heard on NPR that 50% blame both factions for the violence.
Maybe you should stop reading and watch the video as I said.
"Pretty much every white supremacist demonstrator they saw had some sort of weapon, either a helmet, a shield, a firearm, a baton. As for the counter-protesters, I would say most of them were unarmed. Many of them were members of the clergy or they were students," Reid said on the "CBS Evening News."
"Now, there were certainly some people who were there as counter-demonstrators who were there to cause trouble, but overwhelmingly, the counter-protesters were unarmed," she continued.
Reid also noted that the counter-demonstrators were the only ones she saw providing medical aid to people who were hit with chemical agents.
According to Reid, it was also clear that most of the objects being thrown into the crowd of counter-demonstrators were coming from the park containing Robert E. Lee's statue, which the white supremacists had been holding throughout the day.
CBS News Reporter Recap
This where this ends if we don't speak up now and put these Nazis in their proper place: the dustbin of history. Doing nothing isn't an option.
Twitter thread on what Nazis are all about
What is our President empowering here?
VICE: European white nationalists loved Trump's Charlottesville response
the video is ambiguous about the context/details in which the melees took place. Why do you discount the first person accounts of the clergy who were on the front line? (and also the CBS news reporter) Maybe if one was to break down blame for violence it would be 95% neo nazis - 5% antifa - not the 50-50 affair that you imagine.
Of course people who watch the video on the news for 30 seconds are going to do the fall back position that both sides are responsible. That doesn't mean that is accurate of what actually happened. (nor does it mean that the sides are equally responsible)
Here is more survey data from NPR, which is interesting for how people view things (not for any factual information of what actually happened.)
Poll: Majority Believes Trump's Response To Charlottesville Hasn't Been Strong Enough
For cripes sake, the President is defending Confederate statues today -- two weeks to the day after one of his senior advisors got into a pissing match with a reporter about the Emma Lazerus poem on the Statue of Liberty. Something is wrong here.
There was never any question about the nature of the events planned for the Charlottesville weekend. The man behind the Unite the Right rally was Jason Kessler, a well-known racist. The rally was promoted as an opportunity to assert “the right of white people to organize for our interests.” The confirmed speakers—announced in advance—were a who’s who of white nationalist leaders, including people who justify violence to protect white interests. ...
An email quoted by the Wall Street Journal’s James Freeman supports Suarez’s account. The email comes from a source close to the Monument Fund, a Charlottesville-based nonprofit dedicated to preserving some Confederate-themed monuments and adding more balanced historical explanations to the sites. “Nobody from our group attended the protests or counter-protests,” the source tells Freeman. “We all stayed away. As everybody should have done.”
Weekly Standard: Where are Trump's Very Fine People?
Look up Jason Kessler's history-- big Obama supporter and Occupy organizer, suddenly turned Nazi? Something stinks.
Have you met the left? They can't organize a picnic, much less a massive race-based false flag operation.
Good point, but how much ability does it take to incite a mindless mob to do stupid stuff? And whose idea was it to try to block a lawful demonstration by stupid people, with possible violent confrontations, rather than ignore them?
It's all a mystery.
Unite the Right poster
Where are the very fine people, again?
Everybody that didn't respond to that poster?
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