A terrible day in our country's history. Criminals chose to attack our country, our country's laws / processes and the clearly stated will of the majority of our country's citizens. This resulted in the injury and deaths of police officers and citizens.
It was terrible, and yet what happened today is probably worse. Many citizens and politicians are failing stand up and state unequivocally that the Capitol Riot was a terrible totally unacceptable attack on the USA.
And even today the majority of Republican citizens work to undermine our country and faith in the rule of law. :-( It is so depressing when I stop to think about it.
Dozens of recounts with no significant errors found, dozens of court cases filed with no problems found, and a conspiracy minded minority of US citizens still deny that Biden won by 7.5 million votes and 4 states. IT WAS NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!
118 comments:
One minor correction, please. A significant majority believe that "fraud" was what created Biden's "win."
If 80% of GOPers believe Biden won by fraud and GOPers only make up 40% of voters...
That means only 32% believe fraud was an issue.
And ironically it all the folks that got their butt kicked.
That is why I see GOPers as such bad sports.
They are likely the folks who blame the ref when there team fails.
So that means the vast majority of us support Biden's legitimacy.
Why ignore Democrats and Independents? That majority who believed the election was tainted included everybody. But you are allowed a contrarian belief. Really, are you better off with this "legitimate" President?
Source please.
Maybe you are confused about what people are concerned about...
Result
A new NPR/Ipsos poll finds that 64% of Americans believe U.S. democracy is "in crisis and at risk of failing."
GOPers
"It is Republicans that are driving this belief that there was major fraudulent voting and it changed the results in the election," Newall said.
Nearly two-thirds of poll respondents agree that U.S. democracy is "more at risk" now than it was a year ago. Among Republicans, that number climbs to 4 in 5.
Overall, 70% of poll respondents agree that the country is in crisis and at risk of failing."
_________
DEMs
"Democrats also expressed dismay about the state of democracy — but for very different reasons. In follow-up interviews, they voiced concern about voting restrictions passed by Republican-controlled state legislatures in the wake of the 2020 election. And they struggled to make sense of the persistent belief in the fiction that Trump won.
"When Trump first came out with his 'big lie,' it just never occurred to me that so many Republicans would jump on board," said Susan Leonard of Lyme, N.H.
"It's like a group mental illness has hit these people," said Leonard. "I cannot believe this is happening in our country. I'm scared, I really am."
As for am I better off?
I guess most of the time I do not care who the President is...
I really have noticed a change since Trump...
Suppression of voting is fraud too. We are getting to the point where no one believes in elections anymore. So what's the alternative?
In other contexts, people tell me they believe things are true because they want them to be true, or need them to be truth. One word for this is "faith". For myself, I have always had faith in the election system, not in it's perfection, because nothing is perfect, and nothing can be perfect in something done hundreds of million times by mistake prone individuals, but because I need it to be true in order that legitimacy in our political t system is ensured. My faith in the system borders on the ridiculous or the irrational. With gritted teeth, I even accept the outcome of the electoral college vote despite the fact that twice in this century, an institution intended to protect the integrity of the process chose as president, a candidate who lost the popular vote, in each case with disastrous results.
--Hiram
I guess I have a LOT of faith in our voting system because much of it occurs in local communities.
Hundreds of millions of votes sounds daunting... But 10,000 or fewer per precinct seem much more manageable...
OK, Dems see democracy in peril because they aren't allowed to steal elections. Republicans see it because Dems ARE allowed to steal elections.
I simply cannot have "faith" in a system that I KNOW has so many opportunities, placed there deliberately by Democrats (especially in MN), and knowingly exploited by just a few people, in key localities, enough to alter the election results. And I am convinced they do not consider it cheating, because they got rid of "Orange Man Bad." Even if they had to elect a dirty old sock puppet to do it.
Let's just take your last statement, about 10,000 votes. At midnight, all Republicans here locally were leading. By 2AM, 7000 more votes came in and every Democrat became the winner, even though the machines can only count 400 ballots/hour. Sorry, that sounds fishy to me, despite your "faith."
I guess I have a LOT of faith in our voting system because much of it occurs in local communities.
A lot of Republican claims are refuted by the dogs who aren't barking in the night. Elections are run by individuals, partisan individuals, hundreds of thousands of them around the country. Friends and neighbors and sometimes ourselves, who are committed to running them fairly and accurately. If something were up, they would know, and they would be reporting what they know. Have any folks like that come forward to say there was fraud? Any at all?
I was personally involved as an observer in an election recount, and it was in a Republican district in Chisago County. Thousands of votes were recounted, the process took two day. There were no discrepancies. None. The initial count was the correct account. There were no thousands of ballots in dispute, instead there were no ballots in dispute.
Trump often betrayed a cynical naivete. That was nowhere more evident in this belief that this election could be or was stolen on a grassroots level. Only someone who knew nothing about how elections in America are conducted in America could believe that.
--Hiram
Hiram,
Unfortunately folks like Jerry do not trust our friends, neighbors and local officials.
He seems to think they are willing to risk going to jail for a felony to change the results in a precinct...
I will never understand conspiracy theorists.
Even after all the court cases and recounts that found pretty much ZILCH, they still insist there is a ghost in the machine that is out to get them.
Not believing in elections can be just as much an act of faith as believing in them, I suppose. But if our elections are invalid because they are imperfect what's the alternative? is there another process out there, one capable of perfection? I simply have no idea what that process would be. As much as I have asked for one here and elsewhere, no such alternatives have been proposed.
--Hiram
Fine, I can understand your blind faith in our election systems, but how can you ask me to believe it, when I have seen the cheating with my own eyes, some written into the laws and procedures in black and white (or as likely not), and then sometimes clearly not followed?
What's the alternative? More election integrity, written in law, and then followed! I can't believe there are people who object to honest elections, unless they support election cheating.
You and you "cheating"...
The event that you can not prove actually occurred.
"I swear I caught the biggest fish ever !!!! Just trust me!!!" :-)
I can understand your blind faith in our election systems, but how can you ask me to believe it,
If you do understand my faith in our election system, I think you can understand how I can other to have faith in it as well. The system simply doesn't work if we decided not to have trust in it. That's even true where the trust is not merited such as with the electoral system. Our constitution endorsed slavery, even so, that is something I have made a conscious decision to overlook.
"More election integrity, written in law,"
Making voting difficult for unfavored people or unfavored communities reduces, not increases election integrity. I hate "the same people" arguments but in this case it was literally, and I do mean literally, the same people who tried to steal the election in 2020, who are trying to steal future elections now.
--Hiram
Ah, so your proof that cheating never happened is you simply deny my sworn eye-witness testimony? And that black-letter law was NOT violated in any way, shape or form, even though courts have since ruled it so?
"Making voting difficult for unfavored people ..." Blah, blah, blah. Same old lies. The laws as written leave loopholes that a tiny few "favored" people can use to steal an election, thus making voting not necessarily difficult, but futile for the "disfavored" honest voters.
Studies repeatedly show that faith in elections increases turnout. Courts continue to rule that Voter ID laws are legal (the usual strawman argument by election thieves) since no one can be found that cannot get an ID under those laws. A quick study in Harlem found exactly that. MN election laws are an outlier, with obvious flaws. The only people with "difficulty voting" would be the dead people, non-existent people, clones of real people, and imaginary people that now vote in great numbers. Real people would actually get their real votes counted fairly, for a change.
Like you, I would like to trust the election system. But how is that possible when I know it has a long history of ignoring or dodging the law, and has NOT been reformed?
Studies repeatedly show that faith in elections increases turnout.
That's why Republicans, who benefit from lower turnout, try to drive down faith in elections. I can tell you at the grass roots level faith in the process is a big issue. Whenever anyone tells me they don't vote because they don't have faith in the process, I know that is a victory for Republican messaging.
--Hiram
Hiram,
Yes. I understand that you want to remove regional weighting from the system and
enable the cities / coasts to rule the country. Thankfully our country distributes the power more equitably.
Jerry,
Neither we nor the courts apparently believe you. I am still waiting for the court case number.
If the GOP attempt to suppress the vote of the young and poor was limited to voter ID, I may be able to live with it. Unfortunately it is not.
Concerning the black letter law point. Voting is a constitutional right, one at the heart of constitutional process. That means its legal status has a higher priority over statutory law. When the constitution and a statute are in conflict, the constitution prevails.
That said, because of the Covid crisis, elections in 2020 were conducted differently from prior elections. It is quite reasonable to argue that some laws were violated. The problem with that view however is that the legality of the election must be raised as an issue before the election is conducted, before Americans exercise their right under the constitution to cast their votes. Once the votes have been cast, they must be counted, they cannot be discarded because to do otherwise would have been a clear violation of the constitutional right to vote.
Trump complained about standing and his legal lack of it. Standing means that the person involved in the litigation has a right at issue. Trump missed a fundamental point. Neither Trump nor Biden had a right at issue in this election. No one elected to office has a right to be elected. Elective office is a privilege, not a right. The people who do have rights are the voters. It's they who have standing and it's their actions that matter, that their lawfully cast ballot must be counted.
--Hiram
I don't think coasts should govern us. I think people should govern us. And bear in mind, coastal states have extraordinary power under this system. Alaska has by far the longest coast of any U.S. state, and on a per capita basis, in the electoral college, it's voters are among the most powerful.
--Hiram
And yet compared to California, Alaska has almost no power...
And yet you would lessen even that...
California 55
Texas 38
Florida 29
New York 29
Illinois 20
Pennsylvania 20
Ohio 18
Georgia 16
Michigan 16
North Carolina 15
New Jersey 14
Virginia 13
Washington 12
Arizona 11
Indiana 11
Massachusetts 11
Tennessee 11
Maryland 10
Minnesota 10
Missouri 10
Wisconsin 10
Alabama 9
Colorado 9
South Carolina 9
Kentucky 8
Louisiana 8
Connecticut 7
Oklahoma 7
Oregon 7
Arkansas 6
Iowa 6
Kansas 6
Mississippi 6
Nevada 6
Utah 6
Nebraska** 5
New Mexico 5
West Virginia 5
Hawaii 4
Idaho 4
Maine* 4
New Hampshire 4
Rhode Island 4
Alaska 3
Delaware 3
DC 3
Montana 3
North Dakota 3
South Dakota 3
Vermont 3
Wyoming 3
Fun Fact...
The >3 vote States" control 514 or the 538
The >4 vote States control 494 of the 538
Probably one of the reasons they are never discussed as "critical swing" states.
And yet compared to California,
A state isn't human. Why should it have power?
--Hiram
As we have discussed previously...
Disempower people from large regions of the country at your own risk.
They need to feel they have some influence or they will likely rebel / leave.
"That's why Republicans, who benefit from lower turnout, try to drive down faith in elections" -- Hiram
You don't know any Republicans. We are trying to drive UP faith in elections (by insisting on election integrity) because our people are the most likely to stay home if the system cannot be trusted.
"If the GOP attempt to suppress the vote ..." And yet where Democrats run the elections, there is a lack of some of these safeguards to honest voting, and where Republicans run elections, many of them (like handicapped access) remain available. Projection, or straw man argument, or just simple vituperation. REASONABLE restrictions that reduce "improper voting" are exactly that, and we do not have that now.
Audit after audit proves the vote is correct and yet Jerry continues to try to undermine faith in it.
On a related note.
The reason why audits are being asked for isn't because there is any good faith doubt about the results, but as a tactic to undermine the credibility of the election. It's form of innuendo, a way of making a charge while not standing by the facts, usually because there are no facts to stand by.
--Hiram
But if every audit reassures that the system is robust, legal and accurate.
It should promote confidence in the results and system...
And yet folks like Jerry remain unconvinced and illogical...
I assume this is why it is so hard to convince a conspiracy theorist.
Even if you show them there is no monster hiding in the closet,
they will find excuses to continue to believe something is out to get them... :-(
BS. Who counts the votes, and who "audits" the votes?
I want you to prove to me that the official audits are correct, when an unofficial audit finds, in one small area, over two dozen people over the age of 110 who voted in the 2020 election. Or that an official tally of 1200 votes cast (3:1 Democrat) can be "correct" with only 400 paper ballots supporting it.
I am NOT trying to "undermine faith" in the election process, I am trying to RESTORE it. Depending on the poll, between 1/3 and 2/3 of Americans think there was something illegitimate about the Biden win. Are you going to change election law to restore their faith in the process, or just expect them to stay home so Democrats can continue to "win" at the expense of good governance?
Of course you are seeking to undermine the election system and results.
Otherwise you would accept the results of the court challenges and audits.
Instead you keep raising doubts and seeing boogiemen with no proof.
It is very simple why people doubt the veracity of the results.
Trump told them to doubt the results.
FOX News told them to doubt the results.
And like sheep they do as they are told.
Even if it is damaging to the country.
Now what would people believe if Trump had done what every other President has done in the past...
Expressed faith in the country's systems.
Accepted the results and the loss with grace and dignity.
Supported the peaceful transfer of power.
It is amazing how terrible he was for our country...
"Otherwise you would accept the results of the court challenges and audits."
OK, I accept the Michigan court finding of 200,000 illegal Biden votes. I accept the Arizona audit finding of 200,000 "improper" Biden votes. I will believe the many court decisions that found election laws illegally changed to enable cheating (or prevented from being changed, as in Texas).
A new poll says 90% of people believe "cheating" played some part in the 2020 election, yet you still hold onto the notion we should have "faith" in the system? Sorry, but faith has been lost and needs to be restored, rather than enshrining cheating in federal law as SB.1, pushed entirely by Democrats, seeks to do.
Never mind Trump and what he "accepts." Somewhere near half the country does not accept that the election was untainted. And with good reason.
Sources please.
You see, that comment makes me think you do not WANT to know the truth, or even subject yourself to a contrary opinion. And you tend to reject as "biased misinformation" any source I do provide. To sustain your bias, you won't even believe your own sources sometimes.
Well when you try to pass off political science grads as climate change experts, yes I question your source. Or even that guy who only worries about cherry picking satellite measured temps...
These should be much more black and white.
1. The Michigan court finding of 200,000 illegal Biden votes.
2. The Arizona audit finding of 200,000 "improper" Biden votes.
3. 90% of people believe "cheating" played some part in the 2020 election
4. the many court decisions that found election laws illegally changed to enable cheating
It's hard to imagine any change in election laws that doesn't enable cheating in one way or another.
-=Hiram
Imagine for a moment that a law was passed that enabled cheating. Would not the repeal of that law reduce cheating?
"To enable cheating"?
It is likely you 2 have very different definitions of "cheating".
Please share those definitions.
Cheating happens in different ways.
Republicans make an interesting assumption. They assume that just because cheating is impossible, that means it actually occurs. Somehow, they see as eliminating the necessity of actually proving the existence of cheating. And of course, one reason why Republicans believe that cheating does occur is that they, so often, are the ones caught doing it. I still find it amazing the extent to which Trump's efforts to rig the Georgia, caught on tape by Republican officials, are overlooked.
--Hiram
You still did not define "cheating" from your perspective...
And yes it is amazing that folks like Jerry think it is okay that Trump asked a Sec of State "to find 11,000 votes..." :-O
What a crook.
My go to source for definitions of words in general usage is the Merriam Webster dictionary.
--Hiram
Not too helpful.
cheated; cheating; cheats
"Definition of cheat (Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb
1: to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
cheated the elderly couple out of their property
2: to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
a young man who cheated young women into marrying him when he was already married
3: to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting
cheat death
intransitive verb
1a: to practice fraud or trickery
denied the accusation that he cheated
b: to violate rules dishonestly
cheat at cards
cheating on a test
2: to be sexually unfaithful —usually used with on
was cheating on his wife
3: to position oneself defensively near a particular area in anticipation of a play in that area
the shortstop was cheating toward second base
Here is a broad definition re: voting
" to enable a non-eligible person to cast a ballot, or to count ballots in such a manner as to advantage one side over another." Lots of ways to do that, of course, which makes election reform a bit complicated.
To me, that is a start...
I'm gonna do what I've been trying to do more often lately and just ask, Jerry, what would it take for you to change your mind about whether the election was fair and that Biden was correctly installed as president? If the answer is nothing, then there's no point in continuing a conversation about the topic. You've made a decision, and no matter how I feel about it, that's what it is and I'm not, and I encourage everyone else to not, waste my time talking to you about it.
Lots laws enable illegal voting. That we allow voting at all enables illegal voting.
Bear in mind that politicians don't have rights here. "Sides" don't have rights. The people who have rights here are voters, and it's their rights that must be protected even if doing that advantages one side or another.
--Hiram
to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
cheated the elderly couple out of their property
Republicans are deceiving the public by pretending to believe that elections are fraudulent in order to enact changes which benefit their candidates.
Republicans like innuendo. When they can't prove something, they simply rephrase their positions as questions, a way of making a statement without standing by it.
--Hiram
"what would it take for you..." Oh, it is very simple. You would need to convince me that I did not see, with my own eyes, Biden getting credit for three times the votes for which there were paper ballots; that I did not see 75 ballots in a row, all marked identically and only for Biden; that I did not watch as counting stopped at midnight with all Republicans winning, and then at 2AM 7000 more ballots appeared (mind you, the machines only count 400/hour) and the vote swung decisively to Democrats. You would have to convince me that Secretary of State Simon did NOT agree to change the election laws prior to the election (unlawfully), eliminating the signature requirement on absentee ballots, doubling the number of mail-in-only precincts AND using obsolete voter rolls to send out those ballots. Convince me that MN election procedures promoted by the SOS do NOT allow illegal aliens to vote (they do), or that MN election law does NOT permit college students to vote twice (it does). And then assure me that every absentee ballot acceptance/rejection, and every ballot counted, was under the watchful eye of observers from opposing parties. Can you explain how Biden got 70,000 more votes, statewide, than all other Democrats combined, and Trump got almost exactly that number FEWER than all other Republicans?
Now, are you ready to step up and prove the election was as free of opportunities to cheat, or actual cheating, as it could have been, regardless of outcome?
Jerry,
Do you think that Trump won MN?
Joe Biden 1,717,077
Donald Trump 1,484,066
Difference 233,011 votes
Come on Man...
I didn't say that, I said "REGARDLESS of outcome" can you prove there was no cheating?
Perfection is Unattainable.
Not sure why you are obsessed with it?
Have you defined "cheating" for us yet?
What precinct did this happen in? "You would need to convince me that I did not see, with my own eyes, Biden getting credit for three times the votes for which there were paper ballots; that I did not see 75 ballots in a row, all marked identically and only for Biden; that I did not watch as counting stopped at midnight with all Republicans winning, and then at 2AM 7000 more ballots appeared (mind you, the machines only count 400/hour) and the vote swung decisively to Democrats."
I don't want perfection. I just don't want MN to have the loosest election laws in the nation.
Jerry,
What is Cheating?
What precinct #?
I defined cheating for you, and gave examples. They occurred in the precincts I was watching. Try to keep up.
"They occurred in the precincts I was watching."
Name them.
And I want a definition of cheating for a future post?
Your examples are focused on the potential for fraud.
I think there are many other forms.
My definition is good, but general. To go further would be descriptive of legal and procedural changes needed. You would fight them, so cheating could continue. My examples focused on evidence of cheating. Outright "fraud," which has a different definition, is clearly illegal, rarely found and even more rarely successfully prosecuted. Cheating, however, is easy to do, nearly impossible to trace, and can only be prevented by closing all those "loopholes" you so casually dismiss.
I really want clarification on the "my own eyes" bit. You were working in a precinct during vote counting and witnessed the irregularities you're describing happening right in front of you and did nothing? Or did you witness this "with your own eyes" on video on TV or the internet from a site you typically agree with?
And as Sean asked...
What precinct(s)?
What election(s)?
I took part in the official audit, was looking for these things from past experience, and saw them. You are asking for particulars, which tells me that you want to prove to me that I did not see what I DID actually see with my own eyes. If you insist, I will, but I am first going to insist YOU prove that there were no ways that cheating could possibly have occurred in MN.
No one has ever said the cheating was impossible. That's a long way from proving that cheating actually occurred. You're the one making the accusation, the burden of proof is on you.
I have offered proof that cheating DID occur. And it is impossible for you to prove it did not occur since there are many, many opportunities built into the law and the "official" election procedures. It simply stretches credulity that some of them would not be exploited by somebody.
You've offered an account of what you claimed to see that is lacking in critical details, such as the time and place of said events.
That is correct. And since you were not there, and cannot by any means see what I saw, you have no grounds to challenge my veracity. And more importantly, you have utterly failed to prove that what I observed was impossible under current election law and procedure.
Your inability or unwillingness to provide said critical details impacts my evaluation of your veracity.
Sean,
You mean a conspiracy theorist assuring you that a crime occurred.
And yet being unwilling to tell you when and where...
Or what audit, court case, etc looked into it...
Seems questionable to you also? :-)
Jerry has never once backed up a single assertion he's ever made. Why do we keep insisting he do something he's incapable of doing?
I mean, if he actually took part in an audit and actually saw what he says he saw, there would have been a report files, news articles, any mention of it anywhere. Instead, the only reports of voter fraud I've ever seen that led to an actual conviction seems to be those voting for GOP candidates. I can provide links, but I also know that a quick google search can confirm what I've just said. If I try to google anything Jerry has asserted, I find links like this:
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-list-statements-2020-electi/fact-check-list-of-partly-false-statements-on-the-2020-election-idUSKBN27Q2NI
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-ap-fact-check-joe-biden-donald-trump-virus-outbreak-79c34b72633683af195ae945503883fe
Because he's a parrot and when you talk to a parrot, you just keep hearing the same thing over and over again.
I don't insist... I just ask and hope... :-)
On the upside, his inability to prove his statements usually reassures me that he is wrong.
Though sometimes they lead me to research and learn something different.
Besides he is pretty much the only conservative I know that will even discuss these topics. Usually only Liberals and Moderates participate...
The Conservatives lately seem to have joined a cult...
Information, logic, facts, sources, thinking, etc are irrelevant...
Just agree with Trump and FOX...
How about this incident, where 16 people, including two GOP officials, falsified documents saying they were the Michigan Electoral delegates in an attempt to place Michigan's delegates under Trump? Whole nother level of fraud.
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-michigan-elections-electoral-college-criminal-investigations-8a0454f0a28fd3f5903fa3ab962f764b
As mentioned elsewhere, it is odd that usually the identified cheating is on the GOP side???
Odd? Consider who the "reporters" are, and who the election officials are. And none of you have ever bothered to explain to me how it was impossible for me to see exactly what I saw. For example, did you personally witness stacks of "mailin" and "absentee" ballots that had NO creases in them? Did you see the final official count that reported three times (exactly) the number of Biden ballots actually present, or witness those ballots being run through the counter 3 times? (Hint: you couldn't, because Republicans weren't allowed to observe the counting. Oh, but maybe you could if you were Democrats, I don't know.) You all keep insisting the election was fair and honest, yet steadfastly refuse to even discuss any MN election reforms that would help assure people that it was so, like elimination of untended ballot drop boxes as just ruled by a judge in WI.
As I often say... Believe as you will...
But with no proof... No crime...
Just your wishful delusional perception...
Now you are being silly. I have eyewitness testimony. But you are correct, that in MN, "election theft" is not a crime, legally speaking. All that does is make it more likely to be committed.
Speaking of willful self-delusion, you keep insisting that cheating does not happen in MN, yet refuse to discuss any of the numerous means of reducing it. If it doesn't happen, then what is the harm in having rules to reduce it?
"what is the harm in having rules to reduce it?"
I think I will save my answer for my post about the various forms of cheating...
Of course, you could just ask me, but then I would expect a polite discussion as to how each vector might be avoided in law. Identifying the problem is easy. Identifying the solution isn't too hard, in this case. Getting it past the overwhelming political bias is the hurdle.
You would definitely know about that hurdle...
Yes, I would. Any read of pronouncements from Democrat officials, amplified by the partisan press, and suppression of any attempt to get at the truth, tells me just how high the hurdle is for those actually interested in fair and honest elections.
I look forward to your acknowledgement of all the possible forms of cheating, and your subsequent denial that any of it actually occurs.
Says the guy who has no proof of wrong doing...
Says the guy who has no proof of "right-doing." Just one example. I want you to show me in MN statute where illegal aliens are not allowed to vote.
You are so silly
Who can vote in Minnesota
You must be:
A U.S. citizen
At least 18 years old on Election Day
A resident of Minnesota for 20 days
Finished with all parts of any felony sentence
You can vote while under guardianship unless a judge specifically has revoked your right to vote.
You cannot vote if a court has ruled that you are legally incompetent.
You are not quoting statute. Where does it say you must be a US citizen, and where does it REQUIRE you to be a US citizen?
Right on the voter registration form...
If you lie, it is a felony...
That is where you are wrong. The voter registration form may say that, but does the STATUTE require it? It's not a felony if it is not in statute. And, if you cannot be found out-- that is, if it is not checked at the time you vote-- then you do not risk prosecution, either, AND your illegal vote counts. Try again.
I disagree.
Yep, that's the form. So where is the statute enforcing a penalty for lying on the first question? How would the lie be discovered?
The obvious way of catching the lie is in the Voter ID requirement below. SO, since 16 states give drivers licenses to illegal aliens, and ANY state license is allowed as an ID to register, illegal aliens CAN register, their vote counts immediately, and their registration cannot be legally challenged.
"You can disagree with me, but you would be wrong." :-)
Voter ID is somewhat pointless...
The hard work occurs during registration.
Sorry, you are going to have to prove that statement. The "hard work" is, AFAIK, entirely predicated on proper Voter ID.
OK, explain it to me. How can I register without some form of ID?
Easily. See Line 7.
Yes, see line 7, where no ID is required. What kind of an ID is "none" Can Donald Duck register and vote? Can somebody make up a Social Security number (many illegal aliens have them) and are they ever checked?
You are pointing out holes in this process big enough for Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves, WITH their camels.
Thankfully we can search for people by names.
Maybe I will see if I can see how many people register without an ID?
What would you do about citizens who have no ID?
Give them an ID. The same thing done in every Voter ID law ever proposed, and fought tooth and nail by Democrats. And of course the "citizen with no ID" is a chimera, invented by Democrat demagogues to fight against honest elections.
While you are actually doing research, find out how many same-day registrants were found not to exist, after their votes had already been counted.
I actually emailed the SOS office to see if they have any interesting reports on this stuff.
That should be interesting. Ask the fox to count the chickens and report back.
The man with no proof throwing stones again... Oh well.
Maybe we will change your name to "Chicken Little".. :-)
"The DEMs are cheating, The DEMs are cheating, The DEMs are cheating..."
While providing ZERO proof.
Broken records repeat themselves over and over. That doesn't mean the song is right.
What you mean is that I have offered no proof that YOU will accept, nor have you offered any proof of your position. In fact, you will not even entertain the possibility that elections were not properly conducted, despite overwhelming and well-documented evidence. Even Joe Biden says that under current election law, the 2022 elections will not be valid, so that means 2020 was not valid, according to the "winner"! Those "Jim Crow 2.0" election laws in Georgia? Democrats won all three of the top races!
According to Democrats:
2016 election-- illegitimate.
2020 election -- legitimate.
2022 election -- illegitimate.
Anybody see a pattern here?
Does the smell of smoke waft in your nostrils? See it in the mirrors?
Actually the questionable GA changes just occurred after Trump's tirade.
And the DEMs have not called the elections illegitimate...
Though Hiram etc sure dislike that the less popular candidate can become President.
"And the DEMs have not called the elections illegitimate.." Actually Joe Biden just implied exactly that, and the Democrat ballyhoo boo-hoo about "voting rights" (more properly called the "license to steal" bill) implies exactly that.
You know, it really stifles discussion when you constantly refer to your opponents (without addressing their legitimate concerns) as idiot, racist scum.
Actually, I say you are out to keep the poor, mobile and young from voting...
Rarely do I mention race.
And if you start providing proof your your comments, you will earn a lot more respect.
Until then you are "Chicken Little".. "The DEMs are cheating, The DEMs are cheating, The DEMs are cheating..."
And if you start suggesting ways to make it easier and safer for the poor, mobile and young to vote you will earn even more.
Actually, I say you are out to keep the poor, mobile and young from voting...
Rarely do I mention race.
And if you start providing proof for your comments, you will earn a lot more respect.
Until then you are "Chicken Little".. "The DEMs are cheating, The DEMs are cheating, The DEMs are cheating..."
And if you start suggesting ways to make it easier and safer for the poor, mobile and young to vote you will earn even more respect.
The "poor, mobile and young" are BLACK, and your use of code doesn't change the national Democrat narrative.
And if I start making it "easier" for "those people" to vote, I will be making the opportunities for cheating far greater than they already are. Please help me prove your point, rather than mine. I want you to prove to me that the [be specific] opportunities for cheating, and I don't care who might do it, do not exist in MN.
Well we will keep our current perceptions of your beliefs and stories then...
That sounds like frustration on your part, that your totally unbelievable assertions have not convinced me that I did not see what I saw, and do not know what I know. And you seem to be unwilling to discuss reforms that might persuade the sizable number of people who agree with me, thus allowing Democrats to cheat their way to election "wins" every time. Do you really favor, as national Democrats do, eliminating ALL voter ID laws in the country?
Actually I am indifferent to what you believe...
I don't think you have read the HR4 John Lewis bill if you believe that.
So, you are unwilling to engage in discussion with someone who does not believe exactly as you do. Good to know.
I DID read HR4. It attempts to overturn the (correct, IMO) SCOTUS ruling. One "Republican" voted for it, making it a strictly Democrat partisan effort. And the real problem is HR1, far worse, even LESS "bipartisan."
I am happy to discuss, but I do not care what you believe.
And until you can provide more than opinions, it is unlikely that what you write will sway anyone to respect your views.
If HR4 just reinstates a bi-partisan bill... Then it is the GOP that has changed... Apparently the GOP cared more about voter's rights in the 60s.
One GOP voted in favor. That is NOT bipartisan. HR4 is entirely devoted to overturning a (correct, from my experience) ruling. We have had that discussion, and why you believe States like Mississippi should be singled for extra penalties is beyond me. No point in discussion with a bigot like you.
HR1 is the federal "Let Democrats cheat" bill and if you have any other reading of that, then "what I believe" is not your problem. If you want to open discussion with a different reading on that subject, go ahead, but be specific. The argument that the 2020 election was stolen is pretty much proven by this bill, with Biden and Democrats tacitly admitting as much.
Mississippi was and should be singled out based on their history.
No wonder you liked it there...
More History
Post a Comment