Minnpost Budget upheaval at Minneapolis Public Schools: What's going on? is interesting and generating some interesting comments.
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47 comments:
Whenever one side of the debate says "costs are increasing," I lose all interest in their POV. The problem is the Board is not paid enough to actually manage spending, so the easy thing is not to tell anybody "no." The cure is to put them over the edge and then make them clean it up. That kind of pain is memorable.
A. Inflation and cost increases are reality.
B. The citizens vote for the Board, and if you read the piece... The citizens are demanding more spending.
The citizens own this, it will be interesting to see what they do... :-)
Most Board elections are held off-year. Those who come out to vote are either Union members or parents, both interested in maximum "take" from the schools, who in turn take from the taxpayers. It's a great case of "OPM addiction," that is, gleefully spending Other People's Money. The Board doesn't even care to exercise sensible financial management, like eliminating or at least greatly modifying a cocurricular activity that costs over 100 times what the least costly activity does.
According to the article, there is a levy vote coming up. One of a couple things will happen. If it is held at general election time, those paying the taxes may defeat it, but it will certainly pop up again in 2019, a non-election year when it will more likely pass. If it does fail, the Board will make sure to really make people "feel the pain" of the cuts they make, which will NOT be the lowest priority items in the budget, but the most visible. And if this 10-year levy passes, the district will need another in just 3 years.
When the Board tells you their "costs are increasing," they are trying to say that they cannot, or will not, manage their costs.
"Those who come out to vote are either Union members or parents, both interested in maximum "take" from the schools, who in turn take from the taxpayers."
If people choose not to take the time to vote. They are still responsible for the result and own the consequences of their inaction.
Whoop-te-do. "We get the government we deserve"? Really? We deserve to have our children robbed of an education, and our society deprived of productive, well-educated citizens?
And I will point out that when turnout is high for these referenda, they are generally defeated. That is not a much better solution, since the spending continues, usually unabated, or gets taken from things that matter MOST rather than those that matter least.
If the schools had an easy way to manage their finances and set priorities, like PBB, one could have far more faith in statements like "we need more money." Until then, it's a lie.
Yes we do get the government we deserve...
That is the downside of being in a democracy...
No one to blame but ourselves.
And yes you are willing to deprive kids to save a some money on your taxes... Most Conservatives are.
I have always voted yes on school referendums.
From MinnPost MPS Budget
"You know how I apportion ~30% of our academic achievement gap problem to the public education system failures, 60% to incompetent / ineffective parenting and 10% to other.
Well from my 10 years of researching the topic, unfortunately I think picking a "good school" is simple... Find a school with a Free & Reduced Lunch population of <30%... If you want a "great school" find one with <15%.
The logic is simple, low poverty schools have a lot of great parents who are interested and can afford to help the school. The majority of kids in low poverty schools have low mobility, often speak English, come prepared for kindergarten, have well developed social skills, well developed brains, parents who can help them, etc. In short, there is a majority who can help those who are struggling.
Just think of a 30 student class. At 10% three kids have a higher likelihood of struggling and 27 are less likely. At 30% that goes to 9 and 21... And it only gets worse from there. No wonder inner city school Teachers are frazzled.
So yes good parents in high poverty area need a way to get their kids into magnets, charters, open enrollment, and/or move to a different district. This simply moves their children away from the population of students who's parent(s) are less likely to make that effort." G2A
OK, so if a school in MPS tells me that, for $14,000 above the State average of $8000, they can bring all these poor, deprived kids up to some reasonable level of proficiency, I say please do. I would like to know specifically how you are going to spend that money to get results (promises don't count) and I want to see measured results as you progress, but money isn't the issue; it is results.
Now if you are already spending the $22,000 and results are dismal, and have been for many years, and you now tell me you need more money yet without any decent explanation for how you have not done better or WILL do better, you get nothing.
And so long as people like you (no offense intended) allow them to blame the kids or parents (or stingy taxpayers), they will never get an incentive to improve either their financial management or their educational outcomes. The problem isn't the budget, and the problem is only the kids to the extent our teaching methods are not adapted to these slower (and sometimes unruly) kids. Look at the racial discipline policies in StP. Are we paying extra for that, and is it helping academic results?
I am still waiting for you to give me the name of that miracle school who turns turds into gold... After 10 years of looking, I have yet to find those miracle workers.
I mean HCZ can do it, but they start working with the parent(s) before the baby is born. And they give any non-cooperative parents / kids the boot.
Something that you would deem government over reach.
It IS government overreach! HCZ is voluntary, as it should be. It serves those willing to follow the rules in hopes of a better future for their kids. You know, like the ordinary folks who buy a new house near "good schools."
I keep waiting for you to give me the name of a public school that, with huge funding, works those miracles you expect from the charters or privates at half the price.
These Minnesota schools with low-income students are beating the odds
My school is not on this list, we are quite far below the achievement levels they say are to be expected with our demographic. As far as I can see they are not considering the added difficulty of educating ESL students in their projections.
Laurie,
After studying the handbooks, I think self selection is the difference between your schools. Please note that HE specifies a uniform, absence details, etc. In other words they only accept students and families who are willing to conform the US norms.
Where as I get a sense that BA is much more willing to accept students and families as they are. My guess is that BA gets a lot of families who want to stay Somalian and be surrounded by other Somalian.
What do you think?
Hennepin Elementary Handbook
Banaadir South Academy Handbook
Hennepin Elementary Home
And look at the HA Attendence Policy. And HA Parent Involvement Policy. To me they seem to make sure that Parent(s) know this is going to be serious and work.
I mean look at this.
If any HES student has more than 1 unexcused absence (3 unexcused tardies = 1 unexcused absence) the following steps are taken by Hennepin Elementary School and Hennepin County Offices, as follows:
Upon 2 unexcused absences – Designated HES Staff will make a courtesy call home to check-in and support the family
Upon 3 unexcused absences – HES Parent Notification Letter will be sent home with student
Upon 6 unexcused absences – Hennepin County Offices will schedule a parent meeting with HES studentand family
Upon 9 unexcused absences – 1st Report and School Team Attendance Review (STAR) Meeting with Hennepin County Attorney Office
Oops, forgot this...Banaadir Academy Home
Jerry,
Please remember that I do not believe in miracle schools.
I believe in responsible and capable Parents. The reason HCZ works is because it focuses on the Parents first and the Child second.
"Saving" the child after 5 years of irresponsible indoctrination, neglect and bad belief / bad habit building is a steep hill... Especially when the child still spends much more time in that environment than in school.
Strib's take
I don't believe in miracles, either, but I have to take the scientific evidence and simple logic as saying that, if the public schools we have are not doing what they are supposed to do, yet other schools are doing "it" better (sometimes much better), and especially if they are doing it with less funding, then more funding is not the answer.
I am not particularly surprised by the Strib's panicked reporting, but I am surprised that anyone should be surprised. MPS enrollment has been dropping for years-- one SHOULD expect staff cutbacks or budget shortfalls. Not only that, but notice WHY. Anybody that can afford to pull their kids out and go elsewhere, does so. They rarely return. In some way, the new schools must be better, and if the new school does better with the exact same kid that left the MPS school, why aren't the MPS schools doing what those new schools do to get that better result?
Proof please. "other schools are doing "it" better (sometimes much better)"
And how are you removing the variation in parents and self selection from your assessment?
I find this interesting since I am in RDale. I am happy I only have 1 more year in K-12...
"Robbinsdale, the state’s ninth largest district, faces a $10.6 million shortfall, and School Board Chairman John Vento said not making cuts isn’t an option. Proposed cuts call for losing 38 licensed positions and 35 nonlicensed positions.
“It’s difficult; we’re trying to do the best for all of our students … and live within our means,” Vento said. “We’re making a concerted effort not to cut the front-line teachers.”
The deficit is the largest in his five years with the 12,500-student district, he said, and is due to dropping enrollment, increasing teacher pay and rising special education and English-learner costs.
“We’re looking at every line item from the superintendent’s office on down,” Superintendent Carlton Jenkins said.
As the district becomes ever more diverse with more poor kids... The costs and challenges just keep going up geometrically. :-(
As for Mpls, as for the other shrinking districts... Learn from RDale and start closing schools.
From MP MPS Budget
"That below JA agrees with some of the issues, i.e. parents, etc. If we start out with overwhelmed, challenged and under performing situations why would one conclude that the children coming out of these situations will have = advantage and or educational achievement? So, a teacher in suburbia, only has to work on the 3 R's a inner city, near in suburb may have to work on the entire social well being structure as well as the families ability to pay bills, get the kids to school on time, make sure the are dressed for the weather, translators for non-English speaking parents, etc. etc. etc. Meaning, depending on who is looking they are doing 2-3-4 5- jobs. Are they now still over paid or under paid?" Dennis
"Also attitudes, beliefs, actions, knowledge, maturity, emotional stability, self sacrifice and habits are everything in parenting and raising successful children.
Unfortunately or fortunately the parent(s) and community get ~5 years to develop and ingrain all of these into children before many schools even get a chance. And then even when in school, the children still spend more time in the home / community environment therefore changing or improving them is hard.
Therefore kids with educated, mature, stable, academic focused, etc parent(s) come to school with the attitudes, skills and support systems necessary to learn and succeed.
And kids with lower educated, immature, unstable, not academically focused, etc parent(s) provide an incredible challenge to districts.
How much should it cost to undo poor attitudes, belief systems, habits, etc that have been developed during the most crucial 5 years of life, and to instill new better ones to enable successful learning? I don't know but I am guessing the cost curve is geometric and not linear.
Not to mention that our local schools work with local food charities to send care packages home so the kids can eat on the weekends.
And one more BIG PROBLEM, many of the truly unlucky kids don't make it a whole semester in the same school because the family is always moving to different "affordable housing"." G2A
"Proof please. "other schools are doing "it" better (sometimes much better)"
Simple. Many leave. Nobody moves back.
"Proposed cuts call for losing 38 licensed positions..." By my math, that cuts back the number of teachers from 543 to 505, and increases average class size from 23 to 24. STILL not a problem, but a question: How many teachers do you actually employ? Is it more than 543?
"How much should it cost to undo poor attitudes, belief systems, habits, etc that have been developed during the most crucial 5 years of life, and to instill new better ones to enable successful learning?"
Easy. It is exactly the amount the State school aid formula decrees. If not, then we should cut every school back to the state average and make them justify any additional funding on the basis of the aforementioned difficulties AND what means will be employed to correct them. You are assuming that the extra funding goes to correct these problems, but a simple look around says that isn't true. Sometimes these problems can be corrected without additional funds, say, by an adequate discipline policy that reduces class disruption. Or adding volunteer tutors or student mentors.
It is a simple (and understandable) case of financial mismanagement. It is why a PBB system of reporting would let schools set priorities and hold the line on spending, while trying to get, programmatically, to improved results.
Your view of reality is amusing to say the least. :-)
Please feel free to believe as you do... I will believe differently...
You of course are entitled to believe anything you like, but for most of us, reality is based in facts and reason. Spending per pupil has more than doubled, yet average achievement remains stagnant, and the "gap" has not improved. How that is anything except financial mismanagement, or willful incompetence take your pick, you will need to explain before we can even agree to disagree.
Source please.
"Spending per pupil has more than doubled"
I don't trust Politifact, but you might. mostly true
And while I was looking I found this simple, common sense report: money doesn't matter
From Politifact.
Brat says that "over 30 years, federal spending on education has grown by 375 percent, but test scores remain flat."
The inflation-adjusted figure Brat uses to describe what he sees as runaway federal spending on education over 30 years is overblown. You can only get near a 375 percent increase if you start in 1970 and end in 2010, when U.S. school funding was nearly doubled with stimulus money and stood at an all-time high of $73.3 billion.
Uncle Sam spent $40.8 billion on public schools last year. When you divide that by enrollment, it comes to $816 a student. Adjusted for inflation, that’s a 117 percent increase in federal spending per student over 30 years ago.
That said, the increase in per-student spending is still significant and Brat has valid point on the test results. Average NAEP scores for 17-year-olds have barely budged during the last 30 years of testing.
So we rate the totality of Brat’s statement Mostly True.
The Federal dollars doubled and they are apparently ~7% of school funding. Anything on the States increases / decreases?
Now what else has changed that would drive additional costs?
Non-Marital Births
Single Parent Households
Marriage Rate
Percentage of Immigrants
Special Education Laws
Here is good summary of the changes... Ed Week School Changes
So in essence we are spending more to educate more challenged kids and attaining better results.
The Heritage piece makes the same mistakes you do... It ignores all the demographic, societal and requirement changes.
It was funny, the gun rights folks seized on the degradation of our society as why there are more mass shootings.. And yet here you ignore it.
The number of mass shootings is statistically insignificant. The number of failing schools expending ever-increasing sums constitutes statistical significance at what, the 95% confidence level? Tell me exactly how much it costs to address these social pathologies in school, and we'll talk. Seems to me that double ought to be enough.
From personal experience, it seems to me that the only thing additional funding does for a school is to increase the amount of money spent.
I wonder if all the dead children, their friends and their families find their deaths insignifcant?
A. Source for double?
B. Rationale that double is the right number?
A. Compare Minneapolis to any of the other "good" schools. The state average is about $9k, while MPS is over $20k.
B. There is NO rationale that says $21K is the right number, unless you consider the incomprehensible state aid formula PLUS the vast sums MPS raises through added levies, as being a rational response to the situation. Of course, to believe that, you would have to believe that total dollars spent mattered more than HOW the money was spent. If I spend time teaching kids how to put a condom on a banana, how much do test scores improve? Not that we shouldn't, but when half the kids don't graduate or cannot read at grade level, shouldn't we at least have a better method, or more emphasis, on the basics?
"...find their deaths insignifcant[sic]?"
Amazing how quickly liberals switch from "we" to "they" when they want to switch sides of an issue, or muddy the waters. Statistical significance is a matter of mathematics and on that score mass shootings are not, and educational failures are. QED.
If you want to say societal changes are the root of all academic failures, then own up to the fact "we" have not adapted to those changes or, better yet, worked to correct some of them. For example, are you willing to accept that school behaviors must adapt so that different "cultures" have different behavior standards, and that we must have racial equity in punishment rather than equal treatment based on behavior?
Source?
Source of what? The fact schools are still failing while we pour more and more money into them? Or that we're talking about "racial equity in discipline," coming to a district near you?
Source...
"state average is about $9k, while MPS is over $20K"
State DOE publishes all those figures. Districts are required to report them.
Please provide some links. If not I may do some research to determine the actual difference when time permits.
MNDOE
See if this helps. I was able to download the complete achievement vs PP spending into a spreadsheet.
What links did you pick?
I assume Data Reports and Analytics
and then what?
It was some time ago. I downloaded the spreadsheet and made a chart. Clearly shows everything I have been saying. sorry, but you'll have to either look, or call the DOE like I did and ask for help.
Don't you get tired of having little proof for your strong beliefs?
I will chase that rabbit later.
I have absolute proof. If you won't take my word for it, you'll have to dig up all the data and do all of the math for yourself. Seems a shame since I have already done it, but...
Apparently MPS is $16,616 per student= $607mil/36,531 students
And is $16,724 per student = $194 million /11,600 students
No wonder MPS struggles...
And RDale... $16,436...
Life is great in western Plymouth... Lots of money and few challenges...
I might believe your Plymouth numbers, I don't believe the MPS numbers. But here's another interesting statistic: 36,000 students/ 5000 teachers = average class size of 7 students! If we spent more, we could reduce class size... :-/
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