Tuesday, January 29, 2019

Assimilate or Stay Poor

CNN It's not that Tom Brokaw is racist. It's that he's wrong


Thankfully I am not a public figure and therefore am free to disagree with the yahoo who wrote this...  Thoughts?

40 comments:

Sean said...

Tom Brokaw is wrong.

Hispanic immigrants are not different than any other ethnic group that have moved to this country in the past, except for the fact that tend they have arrived more recently. Yes, there are large Hispanic clusters in this country, just as to this day, you can still go to a "Little Italy" or "Chinatown" or other similar ethnic neighborhoods in just about any large American city. Data shows that second-generation Hispanic immigrants -- just like those Italian or Greek or German immigrants of generations past -- speak English and are assimilated just fine, thank you.

John said...

It all seems harmless and logical enough to me.

John said...

The reality is that the speed of life continues to move faster and faster.

Back in 1900 taking a generation or two to assimilate was probably fine. Especially in rural America...

Now I agree with Tom, first generation immigrants should strive to fit in faster if they want to thrive in the USA.

John said...

For our convenience...

CHUCK TODD: The problem is in Wyoming and in South Dakota, they think they need a wall. And in Texas and in Arizona, they don't.

TOM BROKAW: I know. And a lot of this, we don't want to talk about. But the fact is, on the Republican side, a lot of people see the rise of an extraordinary, important, new constituent in American politics, Hispanics, who will come here and all be Democrats. Also, I hear, when I push people a little harder, "Well, I don't know whether I want brown grandbabies." I mean, that's also a part of it. It's the intermarriage that is going on and the cultures that are conflicting with each other.

I also happen to believe that the Hispanics should work harder at assimilation. That's one of the things I've been saying for a long time. You know, they ought not to be just codified in their communities but make sure that all their kids are learning to speak English, and that they feel comfortable in the communities. And that's going to take outreach on both sides, frankly.

Sean said...

Totally not racist at all to hold the brown people to a different standard.

Anonymous said...

How much of that is a quote? And how much is yours, John?

If that's all Tom Brokaw, it's just an ignorant statement. If some of that's you, well, the same.

Moose

John said...

Guys,
What do you think we are a bunch of 1890 era farmers who can get by living in our small communities without speaking English? This has nothing to do with race.

Thanks to the history of British empire and the global influence of the USA... English is the dominant business language in the world.

When my French customer get on the phone with their subsidiaries in China and South Korea... They speak English... Not French, Chinese or Korean.

Things may change in the future but if you want to have a great job and make a great living in the USA. You had better learn English ASAP.

Anonymous said...

Check your ignorance, John.

How well do the children of the most recent immigrants to the Twin Cities (Hmong and Somali) speak English?

As has already been pointed out. European immigrants also didn't assimilate immediately. If you have no problem with that, but you have a problem with other 'types' of people doing the same thing, it's racism.

Moose

John said...

So when again did these Europeans come here not knowing English?

What types of jobs did they have?

I am fine with immigrants staying in their comfort zone and delaying their learning of English... As long as they are ok working low level / low pay jobs.

Anonymous said...

Why do you talk about things you know absolutely nothing about?

Moose

John said...

Do you think there are high paying jobs out there for non-English speaking folk?

Sean said...

Census Bureau figures show that outside of countries that are already English-speaking (Canada, India, UK) or have a history of American control (Phillipines), most of the countries that produce large numbers of immigrants have less than 50% of first-generation immmigrants speaking English well upon arrival. Yes, that includes Mexico and Latin American countries, but it also includes China, South Korea and Vietnam.

Sean said...

"What do you think we are a bunch of 1890 era farmers who can get by living in our small communities without speaking English?"

Most immigrants went to the cities, not to the farm.

John said...

If so, how much English did they need back then to get paid a livable wage?

Please remember that we are now a service economy where communication is of great value. One needs to speak English or they will get some back room job that does not pay well.

Whether it is fair or racist is not the issue... It is just the simple truth.

I often find it amusing when the bi-lingual McDonald's manager has to speak English to customers and Spanish to the cooks and janitors. Until those cooks and janitors learn English, that is where they will stay.

John said...

By the way, this works for any immigrants that come to USA.

Be they from Europe, Asia, Africa or South America.

Sean said...

It's fine to feel that way, but again, we're back to the point of Brokaw's comment -- which was that Hispanics are unusually not assimilated. And there just doesn't seem to be real evidence that this is the case.

John said...

I just do not get that from the transcript. I think sensitive folks read it in...

"I also happen to believe that the Hispanics should work harder at assimilation. That's one of the things I've been saying for a long time. You know, they ought not to be just codified in their communities but make sure that all their kids are learning to speak English, and that they feel comfortable in the communities. And that's going to take outreach on both sides, frankly."

Sean said...

"I just do not get that from the transcript. I think sensitive folks read it in..."

Why would Hispanics need to "work harder" at assimilating, then, if they're already sufficiently assimilated?

John said...

Who is saying that they are "sufficiently assimilated" or not?

He is saying that if they want to succeed faster and lessen potential frustration... They should strive to assimilate faster.

And please remember that he also noted the issues with the Right.

"I know. And a lot of this, we don't want to talk about. But the fact is, on the Republican side, a lot of people see the rise of an extraordinary, important, new constituent in American politics, Hispanics, who will come here and all be Democrats. Also, I hear, when I push people a little harder, "Well, I don't know whether I want brown grandbabies." I mean, that's also a part of it. It's the intermarriage that is going on and the cultures that are conflicting with each other."

John said...

Please remember that we are near levels for foreign born residents. Of course there is some strife?

Sean said...

"He is saying that if they want to succeed faster and lessen potential frustration... They should strive to assimilate faster."

You're the one who's reading things in now.

Sean said...

Here's a different take that will get your blood boiling

"Even though many white people are wrong when they assume that hate is a necessary component of racism, Tom Brokaw’s statement probably had no lasting impact on the lives of immigrants. No one thinks Brokaw hates Mexicans or is a secret member of the Ku Klux Klan. His defenders don’t even seem to understand that he can say something racist and still not be a racist. But in his brief moment of honesty, Tom Brokaw didn’t perpetuate racism...

He gave away the secret of white magic.

What this entire discussion is really about is the belief that the fiction of whiteness is something one should aspire to. That belief is called white supremacy.

...

Every bit of data shows that white people are the least-assimilated group of people in this country. Most white people only have white friends. White people are more likely to only live around white people. White parents don’t want their children attending diverse schools.

Tom Brokaw doesn’t hate black people or Hispanics. I bet he likes fried chicken and eats burritos. He just wants more people like him. He is white, so instead of calling it “identity politics,” we call it “economic anxiety.” We call it “assimilation,” not “whitewashing.” Call it “political analysis.” Call it sage advice. Just don’t call Tom Brokaw racist because what he said was not racism. It was a different and more spectacular abracadabra...

White supremacy."

John said...

Definitely a lot of assuming going on there... Please note that no where does Tom reference assimilating to be "more White"...

He does note speaking English and becoming more comfortable in their bigger communities though.

Oh my Lord, they may need to become normal Americans... How did the Left get so angry and biased? :-)

"I also happen to believe that the Hispanics should work harder at assimilation. That's one of the things I've been saying for a long time. You know, they ought not to be just codified in their communities but make sure that all their kids are learning to speak English, and that they feel comfortable in the communities. And that's going to take outreach on both sides, frankly."

Sean said...

Your definition of a "normal American" is a white American, though.

Anonymous said...

In other words, "How dare they be different?"

Moose

John said...

I'll have to tell all my friends and co-workers who are minorities from all over the world that speaking English and participating in their local American communities is a "White" thing.

Where do you guys get these silly ideas?

John said...

As you envision your idealistic dream...

Does everyone speak English?

If not, what is the one language everyone will speak so everyone can communicate effectively?

Or do you envision no common language?

John said...

One side note:
India Languages and Challenges

Sean said...

"Where do you guys get these silly ideas?"

How did English get to be the predominant language? Did people just choose to give up their native language?

I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't speak English. They should (and again, as the evidence shows, they do!). But we should also be cognizant of the fact that the language and norms we use often require people to suppress their heritages. When you suggest that it's OK to fire people because they have natural black hair or a wrestling referee tells a kid he has to cut off his dreadlocks to participate or people throw hissy fits about religiously-mandated head coverings, those people are being forced to change in ways that you and I aren't expected to. And maybe we should be more thoughtful about thinking about which of those "requirements" we ask of those folks are really required and which are really just for our comfort and familiarity.

John said...

I hate to tell you but our business norms are pretty global...

The people I meet in India, China, South Korea, Sweden, etc look just like my peers in Eden Prairie.

Well except the language they speak.

Sean said...

"I hate to tell you but our business norms are pretty global..."

I see you missed the point completely.

John said...

Now you are going to tell me that the whole world is racist?

I do agree with you that some bad things happen to some people. That is not proof that our country is inherently flawed. It just means there are idiots out there who do stupid things.

Because there are annoying Liberals are out there, does that mean we need to change our society to protect Conservative politicians?

John said...

By the way, how do you intend to get the 320 million of us to always follow the golden rule or better yet the platinum rule?

Sean said...

How did these norms become the norms? Did everyone gather at the UN and ratify them?

John said...

How do any social / business norms develop and shift over time?

Thankfully the British policy of wearing white wigs did not catch on around the world...

However dressing fairly neutrally and professionally did.

The goal of many modern businesses is to keep all non-business stuff out of the office. That way they do not have people claiming harassment, offense, etc.

And out in the shop some of these issues become a safety concern. (ie no rings, no loose clothing, no hats, nothing blocking your vision, nothing that may distract others, no open toed shoes, etc)

Anonymous said...

"Thankfully the British policy of wearing white wigs did not catch on around the world..."

LOL

Are you sure about this? Seems to me that it was the French who started it and it caught on around the entire western world, and the British are the only ones who still wear them.

Moose

John said...

Thank you for the correction...

I am still thankful.

I had to wear a tie for my first couple of years of working. Thankfully that also faded away... :-)

Anonymous said...

We get to dress for whatever our workday requires, and since I am not client-facing at all, I can wear blue jeans to work every day. I am VERY thankful for that.

Moose

Sean said...

This is a good piece on Brokaw's comments, and relevant to the above discussion.

Atlantic: What Tom Brokaw Doesn't Get About Assimilation

John said...

I wonder if my Great Grand Father Tom is in heaven frustrated that I no zero words of the Norwegian language... Or does Skol count/ :-)

"As the Minnesota Vikings creep closer to the Super Bowl, you may have come across many posts that include the chant "Skol Vikings!"

It is the team's Viking war chant and comes from the Swedish, Danish and Norwegian word "Skål." A Skål was a bowl that was often filled with beer and shared among friends so the word became a way of saying "Cheers!"