Sunday Thoughts:
Now was it actually the Indian veteran who was harassing the young conservative men? Thoughts?
Monday Thoughts
And the story continues to shift and change, even in the main stream press.
Now I have been participating in a Facebook discussion regarding this topic, and I find it fascinating. It was started by a more privileged liberal woman of my age who compared the young man to one of the jerks in High School. Then some other women piled on comparing the kid to Kavanaugh. Others added in that the seventeen year old was a disrespectful bigot. And of course thrown in there were some insults aimed at me for even having the nerve to question their perspectives.
My perspectives and questions after all this:
Now was it actually the Indian veteran who was harassing the young conservative men? Thoughts?
Monday Thoughts
And the story continues to shift and change, even in the main stream press.
Now I have been participating in a Facebook discussion regarding this topic, and I find it fascinating. It was started by a more privileged liberal woman of my age who compared the young man to one of the jerks in High School. Then some other women piled on comparing the kid to Kavanaugh. Others added in that the seventeen year old was a disrespectful bigot. And of course thrown in there were some insults aimed at me for even having the nerve to question their perspectives.
My perspectives and questions after all this:
- Isn't Tribe Liberal supposed to be the more open minded and compassionate tribe?
- It seems that how people are reacting to this complicated interaction between a White young man, a group of Black religious folks and a Native American with a drum says a lot more about the viewers than the participants.
- Why isn't anyone calling out the Black religious folks who apparently instigated this whole mess?
- I certainly am not wise enough to judge any of those involved in this incident that occurred far from my home.
61 comments:
I find it strange that this chance and obscure encounter has gotten so much attention. It's part of what's wrong with America. But my first response that you can't tell much by one photo and one video. The tendency is for people to see what they want to see. Actually, in this hyper media, social networked era, I think this sort of thing should be taught in school, that isolated images and impressions can be misleading and appear to us in all sorts of different ways, including ways that appeal to our preexisting views and prejudices.
--Hiram
This school has students who have worn black face at basketball games.
Do what you want with that information.
Moose
Layer of layer of information can be added to this isolated incident. Is it really worth the effort?
--Hiram
Hiram,
Agreed. The FB Friend was upset enough with my commenting regarding her political post that she told me to stop. I replied as followed.
"That is the challenge with the members of Tribe Liberal and Tribe Conservative... And why it keeps getting worse each year... The members of each mostly want to discuss issues with people who agree with themselves.
Please feel free to unfriend me if you do not want to have questions raised regarding your political posts. Have a great day !!! :-)"
It really does not bother me much when rigid minded folks unfriend me... Especially those who like to spread questionable judgments against other humans..
Moose,
Still no comment regarding the real problem folk…
"When the year 2000 came without the Israelite Church's prophecy coming to pass, its leaders rebranded the organization as the Israelite Church of God in Jesus Christ, the name they still use today. The organization was taken over in late 2000 by "Chief High Priest Tazadaqyah," born Jermaine Grant, who declared himself the "Holy Spirit" and "The Comforter." Grant recently prophesied that a vengeful black Jesus would soon return to earth to kill or enslave all whites. Unlike Cherry, however, he didn't set a date."
"Still no comment..."
Still? I've made one (now two) comment on this thread. I'll address what I feel like addressing.
Moose
Moose,
Yes you will. And what you choose to address and not address is telling.
All,
From the perspective of a teen age boy on a field trip
Hiram,
I guess I am starting to understand why this was getting so much attention.
I mean the FB folks and Moose seem(ed) to see this a another example of White Privileged Christian Male(s) harassing a poor defenseless Native American who was off minding his own business.
It pretty much matched the confirmation bias of many Liberals. I mean some of them were even wearing MAGA hats. Therefore they jumped on it with a passion. They had White Male aggressors and a Native American victim. It was Christmas had come early for their propaganda campaign.
Unfortunately things started to get complicated quickly...
It turns out that the actual aggressors were Black religious extremists... (who would of thunk?)
The Native American was not surrounded by the boys, but tried to force his way through their group for some reason.
The boy who liberals swore was a harassing bigot turns out to be a young man standing in the wrong place at the wrong time when some guy with a drum wanted to walk through him instead of around him.
Now for the hard part. Can the Liberals who were so fast to judgment learn from this?
Or will they keep believing their original frame, because to question it now is to daunting?
By the way, VOX seems to be sticking with the evil white man version...
"The Native American was not surrounded by the boys, but tried to force his way through their group for some reason."
Yes. There's a reason. Have you bothered to try to find out?
And there is now a photo of kids (different ones) from the same school in black face at a basketball game.
"And what you choose to address and not address is telling."
You have chosen not to address the blackface. That is VERY telling.
Moose
Moose,
Yes I really am indifferent to black face as I am to Halloween masks and our football team being the MN Vikings... I am mostly Norwegian and I am okay with it. And I am really indifferent to it if does not appear in this story...
It was kind of like those mean FB girls comparing the young man with Kavanaugh... It is just an unrelated distraction.
All,
One of the FB commenters added this link for our consideration.
Social Construction of Reality
Moose,
What do you think the reason the man chose to cut through the larger group rather than pass between the 2 disagreeing parties?
(ie the boys and the Hebrews)
"And I am really indifferent..."
You're part of the problem.
Racist actions are racist.
"What do you think the reason the man chose to cut through the larger group rather than pass between the 2 disagreeing parties?"
I asked you if you'd bothered to try to find out. Apparently not.
Moose
Moose,
I have read at least 7 versions...
And I am still not sure...
Please share your interpretation.
I don't have an interpretation. But the Vietnam veteran has told his side of the story. You haven't made mention of it.
Moose
"Yes I really am indifferent to black face as I am to Halloween masks and our football team being the MN Vikings.."
This is parody, right?
It seems that Veteran's story has changed…
"A Native American man steadily beats his drum at the tail end of Friday’s Indigenous Peoples March while singing a song of unity urging participants to “be strong” against the ravages of colonialism that include police brutality, poor access to health care and the ill effects of climate change on reservations.
Surrounding him are a throng of young, mostly white teenage boys, several wearing “Make America Great Again” caps. One stood about a foot from the drummer’s face wearing a relentless smirk.
Nathan Phillips, a veteran in the indigenous rights movement, was that man in the middle.
In an interview Saturday, Phillips, 64, said he felt threatened by the teens and that they swarmed around him as he and other activists were wrapping up the march and preparing to leave.
Phillips, who was singing the American Indian Movement song that serves as a ceremony to send the spirits home, said he noticed tensions beginning to escalate when the teens and other apparent participants from the nearby March for Life rally began taunting the dispersing indigenous crowd.
Phillips said a few people in the March for Life crowd began to chant, “Build that wall, build that wall,” though such chants are not audible on video.
“It was getting ugly, and I was thinking: ‘I’ve got to find myself an exit out of this situation and finish my song at the Lincoln Memorial,’ ” Phillips recalled. “I started going that way, and that guy in the hat stood in my way, and we were at an impasse. He just blocked my way and wouldn’t allow me to retreat.”
Originally it was clearly stated that the boys thronged around him while he was finishing a chant.
Now it turns out that he borrowed a drum, started chanting and intentionally entered the boys area...
That is a pretty huge change...
Sean,
Sometime a cigar is just a cigar...
Now here is Phillips latest version.
The Boys Version for convenience
"Originally it was clearly stated that the boys thronged around him while he was finishing a chant.
Now it turns out that he borrowed a drum, started chanting and intentionally entered the boys area..."
It doesn't sound to me as if the two things are mutually exclusive.
Moose
This is an interesting quote from Phillips... He certainly did have a lot of baggage inside of him when he looked at the loud rambunctious teenagers who were meeting for their bus at the pre-agreed to spot.
"When they said, "Let's go hit the drum, let's go sing, let's reclaim our space here" because this was the Indigenous Peoples March rally, and when these two groups came together and started that and I was witnessing as it escalated from just two small groups, then the other one just went back and got more people, went back and got more people, went back and got more people until there were over 100 people, maybe 200 young men there facing down what? Four individuals? Why did they need 200 people there other than it's hate and racism? They had their target. They had their prey. And so I wish somebody would've been able to stand in front of the 7th Cavalry and my relatives at Wounded Knee. I wish somebody would've stood there and said, "No, you can't do this."
Moose,
Maybe if had been written...
They were all around him because he had forced his way into the middle of their group in an effort to push them out the area he thought belonged to the Indigenous Peoples Rally it would have been much more accurate.
But to say they thronged around him implies that he was still and they came to him.
Very misleading.
In hind sight it is most incredible...
"I was witnessing as it escalated from just two small groups, then the other one just went back and got more people, went back and got more people, went back and got more people until there were over 100 people, maybe 200 young men there facing down what? Four individuals? Why did they need 200 people there other than it's hate and racism? They had their target. They had their prey."
Phillips not knowing that this was the pre-arranged meeting location for the class... Let his prejudice lead him to the conclusion that they were all coming here to threaten the 4 Black men...
Who ironically were from a radical fringe that was saying all kinds of terrible things to the boys...
This has to be like a Far Left Liberals worst nightmare.
- Some radical Black men harassing high schoolers
- A Native American letting his bias blame the boys for the conflict
No wonder they keep wanting to side track the discussions.
Now I am not saying that the boys are totally innocent... I mean they are teenage boys... They are full of energy testosterone, attitude and stupidity.
However to me it is pretty clear that they were not the radical right bigots who the Radical Left said were looking for a fight...
Definitely a good example of why it is important to get the facts before jumping to conclusions. :-)
"Sometime a cigar is just a cigar..."
Listen, if you don't understand why blackface is different than dressing up for Halloween ... well, I guess that explains a lot of things.
You can avoid today's topic and insult me as long as you wish.
It will still be here tomorrow.
Well, honestly, I'm in Hiram's camp on this one. I don't know why we're spending four days as a nation doing Zapruder-like breakdowns on this videos of this event to try and excuse bad behavior on every side.
What will still be here tomorrow, though, is racism and ignorance. Fighting those are much more important that litigating this stupid incident.
The challenge I have with this though is that the Liberals are adamant to blame the young white men. (ie teenagers)
While they totally ignore the adult Black men who were clearly being racist towards the boys...
And ignoring the idea that the adult Native American clearly was prejudiced regarding the boys and their intent.
Just imagine if it was some Black teens being harassed by Adult White Far Righters... Holy Hanna we would have marches and protests and Lord knows what else...
Instead we have Liberal Left people threatening teen age boys...
This is definitely surreal.
By the way, the liberal FB ladies are still channeling their anger against every jerk who ever wronged them against the young "smirking" boy. Please remember that I very much enjoy studying the psychology of these reactions... So I just find it interesting how each group is reacting.
Well, that's the thing, ain't it? Yeah, the Native American guy may have had some prejudices, but given several boys responded with the tomahawk chop and one even did a version of a Polynesian war dance, you can't say he was completely out of bounds.
That's why it's pointless to sit here and litigate this thing. Better to focus on the underlying issues.
CNN Twitter Account Cancelled
And still you avoid the Black Hebrew Israelites
By the way, as a teen if you were waiting for a bus and some Native Americans were drumming and chanting near by... What would you have done?
Just sat there in respectful silence?
"And still you avoid the Black Hebrew Israelites"
They were wrong, too.
"By the way, as a teen if you were waiting for a bus and some Native Americans were drumming and chanting near by... What would you have done?"
Even as a high schooler, I was aware that the Tomahawk Chop was a racial stereotype that most Native Americans didn't appreciate white people using.
You're certainly correct, though, that your reaction says more about you than it does about any of the participants.
Yes it does...
I believe that most teens are not quite as button downed and mature as you apparently are.
Usually I have found them to be rambunctious, loud and fun loving.
So if somebody wears a nun or priest costume at Halloween would you be equally indignant?
As for the tomahawk chop, I am going to have to watch those videos more closely...
Mostly what I saw was kids in shock over the how the adults were behaving...
Blackface historically was a way of reinforcing negative stereotypes of people who were already seen an inferior or even sub-human. The term "Jim Crow" comes from a 19th Century minstrel show performed in blackface. Those stereotypes still pervade our culture today. It's offensive on a whole other level than your other example.
I assume you are not Roman Catholic then...
Please remember that Islamic Militants will kill someone for even drawing a questionable picture of Mohammed.
Not sure what they would do to someone who dressed up as him for the fun of it...
Should I be angry at this hottie for making a mockery of my heritage?
You can't separate the historical context of blackface from the act. Just like you can't hang up a swastika and say "Gee, I just like straight lines and right angles, why are you upset?"
Dressing up a nun, yeah, can be offensive. But it doesn't have the same historical context. People didn't dress up as nuns reinforcing negative stereotypes as common "entertainment" while they were persecuting, marginalizing, and enslaving Roman Catholics.
I am pretty sure I will never see black face costumes, the name of Lake Calhoun, doing the tomahawk chop, etc in the same serious light that you do... However I respect your position.
No, only when white people get offended does it matter to you.
Please elaborate...
There is no Lake Calhoun. Only Bde Maka Ska. Try harder.
Moose
I don't think it's that complicated. You're quick to pooh-pooh claims of racism, but quick to accept then thinnest of defenses for bad behavior by whites (especially white men). For a few examples: You went to the mat for Brock Turner, you're baffled by how someone is supposed to behave around women in the #MeToo era, and now you're dragging out your defense of these kids (even though more videos show these kids behaving in a less than ideal manner).
Like heckling a woman or saying "it's not rape if you enjoy it".
Which is why my position is: "I don't know why we're spending four days as a nation doing Zapruder-like breakdowns on this videos of this event to try and excuse bad behavior on every side.
What will still be here tomorrow, though, is racism and ignorance. Fighting those are much more important that litigating this stupid incident."
Regarding Brock Turner, I think my point was that there were 2 stupid drunk people involved... Why did only one of them get some pretty severe consequences? Life long sex offender label, Kicked out of school, etc... I agree that what he did was wrong... I just think his consequences were incredibly severe.
You kind of side stepped explaining this...
"only when white people get offended does it matter to you"
Moose,
For better or worse it will always be Lake Calhoun to me.
The good news is I rarely go to or discuss that area.
"Why did only one of them get some pretty severe consequences?"
The other one was sexually assaulted, for cripes sake.
"You kind of side stepped explaining this."
The first two sentences pretty much sum it up. Do you want more examples? How about you defending the white cops in the Tamir Rice case. (It's funny how high schoolers making racist gestures are "just kids", but 12-year old Tamir gets scolded for playing with a toy gun).
Or "kids from 'bad' families get worse sentences than kids from 'good' families" where "bad" families are defined with characteristics that target minority families.
Can you believe Tamir Rice was over 4 years ago? Our discussion are at the end of the comments. You wanted to charge the officers and I did not.
The Grand Jury sided with me for the same reasons.
"On December 28, McGinty reported that the grand jury had decided not to indict Loehmann or Garmback, saying, "Given this perfect storm of human error, mistakes, and communications by all involved that day, the evidence did not indicate criminal conduct by police." "
"sexually assaulted" is a strong term for 2 adult drunks passing out near each other... Possibly while in the process of consensual cuddling. Again … I agree that he was wrong and should have behaved better, but the punishment seemed excessive to me.
Finally, I agree that Lucky kids will get lesser sentences because they have capable knowledgeable parents and good support systems. They often have a good legal defense lawyer.
It is unfortunate that the Unlucky kids have academically and financially limited parent(s), few support systems and likely too much free time on their hands. This is not the fault of the legal system being biased. It is a result of the legal system being blind to race, wealth, etc.
"The Grand Jury sided with me for the same reasons."
Grand juries not indicting cops is not exactly a novel concept. The City of Cleveland also fired the shooter and paid the family $6 million.
"2 adult drunks passing out near each other."
Brock Turner wasn't passed out. He was running away when caught.
"It is a result of the legal system being blind to race, wealth, etc. "
No, it's the exact opposite. If not for wealth, how does the one kid have a good legal defense lawyer?
It's amazing that the kids you want to give a break to are the ones who had all the advantages and screwed it up anyway, not the ones who never had a fair shake in the first place.
Well, on second thought, it's not really amazing. It's in perfect alignment with the rest of your world view.
""sexually assaulted" is a strong term for 2 adult drunks passing out near each other."
It's literally the crime he was convicted of. As noted in Wikipedia, "One nurse who administered a Sexual Assault Response Team examination at the hospital determined that she had experienced significant trauma (physical injury, bruising, etc.) and penetrating trauma (piercing and cutting injuries)."
Remember kids... Do not binge drink... You may do really stupid things... There definitely was a lot of he said she said and I do not remember going on...
You should be happy. It looks like he lost his appeal and will be labelled a sexual predator for the rest of his life.
I disagree and will it sounds like a good post idea.
If Justice is Blind... It only looks at:
- the crime
- the defense
- if guilty - the most appropriate punishment and/or productive treatment
It really should not care why you robbed someone.
It really should not care why your defense is lacking.
"For better or worse it will always be Lake Calhoun to me."
Intellectually lazy and more evidence that racism and genocide are of no real importance to you.
Moose
As I said earlier... Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...
But I am happy that the people who are sensitive to this issue no longer have to be bothered by a lake's name.
I assume they spent their time resolving this "critical issue", over helping poor kids or some other minor issue. Where do people find time to fight over these issues? :-)
“I assume they spent their time resolving this "critical issue", over helping poor kids or some other minor issue. Where do people find time to fight over these issues?”
Yes. You like to make lots of assumptions. I just have to wonder why you think people can’t work on more than one thing at a time.
And people were sensitive to honoring someone who was instrumental in the destruction of a civilization. It may as well have been called Lake Hitler.
Moose
99.9999% of Twin City citizens did not know or care why it was named Calhoun...
And they sure did not know who Calhoun was... But through the efforts of the rename crew, they sure have given him visibility to new generations of people.
And let's remember that Calhoun himself is LONG DEAD so he does not care.
So maybe there was the advantage of embarrassing his ancestors?
But I am serious about the following.
I am happy that the people who are sensitive to this issue no longer have to be bothered by a lake's name.
I just think it was a lot hoopla over nothing.
Blah blah blah
Moose
Calhoun did have quite a history for a historical figure that I had never studied until now.
Interesting story of how a Southerner got a MN Lake named after him.
"In 1817, surveyors sent by Secretary of War Calhoun to map the area around Fort Snelling named the largest lake in what became Minneapolis, Minnesota for him.[151] Two centuries later, the city of Minneapolis renamed Lake Calhoun with the Dakota language name Bde Maka Ska, meaning "White Earth Lake" or "White Banks Lake".[152] "
As I took the dog out before bed and looked at the stars, I had an interesting thought...
I wonder what that body of water will be named in 200 or 1000 years? :-)
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