VOX The ecological disaster that is Trump’s border wall: a visual guide New sections of wall will cut through a Texas wildlife refuge and the habitat of beautiful cats.
Now I am skeptical that the steel bar barriers will cause all these problems. However I am happy to post other perspectives. Here is another useful link.
Now I am skeptical that the steel bar barriers will cause all these problems. However I am happy to post other perspectives. Here is another useful link.
67 comments:
Scientists? Who needs 'em!
The problem with a steel barrier is that they can be dismantled with a saw.
--Hiram
You know all this is so much show. Even if Trump gets the nominal financing, his wall will stuck in the courts for at least the next two years. And the fact is, it has no real political support in either party. The Republicans certainly didn't care about it during the two years they controlled all three branches of government. The only reason they care about it now, is that Trump has bet his political credibility on it, and Republicans feel that can't back away from him without destroying his presidency. Essentially, we as taxpayers, are being asked to pay five billion dollars to save the Donald's political face.
--Hiram
"Why should anyone care what the scientists say as long as I can hold my own opinion up as fact." -John and every other Republican deplorable.
Moose
Please note the sources in the VOX piece...
Sierra Club, "Conservation Groups", Fish and Game, Center for Biological Diversity, and Defenders of Wildlife, Environmental activists, etc.
Are you really going to count them as unbiased scientific experts?
These are the same crazies who prevent forest thinning and help to enable catastrophic forest fires.
Much of the piece is based on data from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service -- oh, and accounts of ecological damage from the already-existing sections of wall.
Now let's get back to some basic logic...
There are ~5 inch openings between the slats...
Which means that plant life, water and the majority of those animals can squeeze through.
You are correct though that the mountain lions may be restricted in their movements, and they may need to clean debris away from the barrier once in awhile in flood prone areas.
Then there are stupid quotes like this…
“The U.S.-Mexico border is made up of mountains, jungle, coastline and many other diverse ecosystems,” Professor Gerardo Ceballos, who led the investigation published last week, told Fox News. “Wildlife has populated these regions for millions of years, and has always had freedom of movement to hunt, reproduce and migrate. To make these animals suffer as a result of man’s political agenda is entirely immoral.”
Of the 800 species that will be affected by President Trump’s border wall, 140 are in danger of extinction, including the bald eagle, grey wolf, armadillo and jaguar, a big cat of which remain only 10 in the highlands of the Sonora Desert that straddle Arizona. Those animals whose range will be halved by the border wall’s construction will be impeded in their ability to reproduce with other members of their species, thereby creating a shallower gene pool and heightening the chance of inbreeding."
How again is a border barrier going to stop an Eagle? :-)
And I think I am up to maybe 6 animals that won't be able to pass where there are border barriers. (ie black bears, wolves, big cats, big horn sheep, others?)
You don't understand how ecosystems work. That's fine. But perhaps you should keep your nose out of it and let the people who do understand it create the policy.
Your statements are riddled with ignorance. And no, I'm not going to educate you.
Moose
I understand that pollen, bugs, water, birds, small to midsize animals, etc can easily pass through that very porous barrier.
All the these critters can haul seeds and other things back and forth through that porous barrier.
I understand that half of a very very very very large area is still a very very large area, and in the worst case we can some high monitored tech animal crossings if we are worried about the health of black bears and big horn sheep. (maybe climbing structures for the big cats.
I understand that we will not be enclosing the whole border. The wild and hard to cross parts will likely stay wild. Which ironically is where these animals live.
Finally, please remember that I spend a lot of time out in the pastures and woods. Animals are very resilient, can squeeze through very small holes and they adapt.
Yet you don’t understand the interconnectedness of nature. Do you walk through the woods with your eyes closed?
Moose
"How again is a border barrier going to stop an Eagle?"
In a few years, how a wall defend against drones that pick people up and deposit them on the other side of the border?
Moose,
You need to spend more time in nature...
Sean,
Those will be some pretty big drones... And likely pretty expensive...
Maybe they will show up on the radar?
Or at least the motion detectors should sense them.
Well, sure. But look how fast the technology has developed there -- drones capable of that capacity exist, they just need to come down in price.
Or these poor desperate migrants will buy a rocket suit... Maybe. :-)
Again the goal is to dissuade, raise the cost and buy our enforcement personnel time to respond.
“You need to spend more time in nature...”
Your simplistic response has nothing to do with the reality of what happens in an ecosystem when one or a number of species (flora or fauna) disappears. Scientists have unequivocally shown how the loss of even one species will lead to the degradation and devastation of the entire ecosystem to the point of no return. I’ve seen this in my own life, in the forests and fields I’ve known and wandered for decades. Your understanding of the natural world has be found here to be sorely lacking.
Moose
The security the wall provides isn't really the issue. Ladders work just as well as walls. And it's clear that the president, at this point is willing to accept anything that can plausibly be called a wall, no matter how insecure.
--Hiram
Moose,
It is a permeable barrier not a solid wall...
Hiram,
Yes ladders do work... However you still need to buy one, haul it to the border barrier, etc.
Again the goal is to dissuade, raise the cost and buy our enforcement personnel time to respond.
“It is a permeable barrier not a solid wall...”
Which will negatively affect many species, putting the entire ecosystem at further risk. It’s as if you understand nothing but your own science-illiterate viewpoint.
Moose
"Again the goal is to dissuade, raise the cost and buy our enforcement personnel time to respond."
I thought the goal was to eliminate all unauthorized border crossings. Wasn't that what you were scolding us all about a few days ago?
Moose, look up the word "permeable." And I started laughing when the article worried about "dividing a ... butterfly sanctuary." Yes, I've been to these places, and without the wall the animals don't observe the border (other than the river). But the protected lands like Organ Pipe Cactus are part of the problem. I still remember a ranger being murdered by an illegal there. Perhaps places like this is where that "high tech 'wall'" could be employed.
I'm still thinking Trump's next move (assuming he has not already done so and the media refuse to report it) is to offer a complete border security plan-- wall, fence, electronic, human, whatever is necessary to "seal the border," and trade it off for some serious immigration reform, more than just DACA. Remember he already tried offering 3 times the DACA Democrats wanted in exchange for wall funding, and they turned it down?
Moose,
What are these “many species” that can not get through a 5 inch gap?
Sean,
I said a target of zero is good, knowing that it may never quite be attained.
Where as you preferred no target.
'And I started laughing when the article worried about "dividing a ... butterfly sanctuary."'
So you also don't understand how habitat fracturing negatively affects species. Furthermore, do you know what the effects are on insect species of industrial lights shining on their habitat throughout the nighttime?
I'm sure you don't care.
Moose
'What are these “many species” that can not get through a 5 inch gap?'
The point is that even the loss of ONE species can have a cascading effect on the ecosystem, especially the loss of an apex predator, the very type of animal that will have no chance to get through or over or around the wall.
Moose
Why It Matters
Moose
Moose,
Again, what species would an incomplete permeable barrier harm?
I am fine putting lights motion detectors. Which would also trigger the alarm and cameras.
"Again, what species would an incomplete permeable barrier harm?"
You need to read more, and so long as your cup isn't already full, perhaps you will understand something.
Moose
Where, exactly, are YOU reading that butterflies can't fly over a wall or fence, or through a 5" opening? Now if you are worried about cockroaches or something that has to crawl, then I suggest you worry about what animal bridges we are going to put across the Rio Grande River so they can safely cross, where they never could before? The article cited made no distinction between concerns for Desert Bighorn sheep, which is legitimate, and butterflies and eagles, which would be silly. And that is why a variety of barrier types should be employed. But they MUST be deployed against people, because they don't seem to have the good sense like the animals do.
Pretty detailed article regarding barriers
Jerry,
I think Moose is confusing studies...
One of the sources above explain how damaging a continuous non-permeable concrete barrier could be.
From what I can tell... Any barriers we will build will neither be continuous or solid...
I've met some ignorant people in my life, but none as ignorant as you two with regards to this subject.
ecosystem noun
eco·sys·tem | \ ˈē-kō-ˌsi-stəm, ˈe-kō-\
plural ecosystems
Definition of ecosystem
1 : the complex of a community of organisms and its environment functioning as an ecological unit
2 : something (such as a network of businesses) considered to resemble an ecological ecosystem especially because of its complex interdependent parts
Moose
How about a nation? Can it continue to function when the walls are falling down and the vermin (no offense) are pouring in?
And what does your definition have to do with the problem at hand? Broad generalities are not at work here. What we need is a barrier to illegal human intrusion, and it should take many forms as needed due to the particular cost vs. traffic, type of threat and terrain. Just saying "no wall" is not thinking the problem through.
Stick to the topic.
Moose
I tried to stick to the topic, but you refused to answer my simple questions.
What are these “many species” that can not get through a 5 inch gap?
Since we know they will never get enough funding for a contiguous barrier, and that it will mostly be prioritized where people live and/or cross... How is this going to negatively bother the areas "where the wild things are"?
The premise of your questions belies your ignorance. Ask the right questions, and perhaps a real discussion can commence. You’re focusing on the wrong thing.
Moose
Besides, I was replying to Jerry.
Moose
Still no answers...
Still no questions with an accurate premise.
Moose
What is inaccurate?
We know there is not funding for a contiguous barrier from sea to shining sea
We know that border control agents prefer a barrier they can see through
We know the winning design at this time has openings that are about 5 inches wide
We know that given limited funding, they will prioritize placing the sections where people either live or can easily cross (like they have done for decades)
What is inaccurate?
"We know that given limited funding, they will prioritize placing the sections where people either live or can easily cross (like they have done for decades)"
Limited funding...because people are pushing back against what Trump wants, a barrier the entire length of the border. The push back is from groups that include scientists and environmentalists, who you don't trust.
Moose
The discussion topic today with regard to this shut down is:
Should Congress and the President compromise to re-open the government?
No one is asking for a concrete impervious wall from coast to coast at this time. Many people pushed back against spending ~30 billion dollars to build that impervious wall... Including Conservatives, Liberals, Tree Huggers and others.
So back to the current proposal that is on the table... Not some environmental nightmare scenario that is not even under consideration.
What are these “many species” that can not get through a 5 inch gap?
Since we know they will never get enough funding for a contiguous barrier, and that it will mostly be prioritized where people live and/or cross... How is this going to negatively bother the areas "where the wild things are"?
Moose, you are the one who brought the definition of "ecosystem" into the debate. Since we all know what that is already, you are taking the discussion off topic. I merely included in your definition a "nation," which is not that much of a stretch, considering definition 2: "2 : something (such as a network of businesses) considered to resemble an ecological ecosystem especially because of its complex interdependent parts."
You claim the questions to you are improper but have never shown why that should be so. You cannot, would be my wager. Once again, liberals find themselves grasping at straws in an attempt to defeat common sense for the sake of political posturing.
"Not some environmental nightmare scenario that is not even under consideration."
Forget it. I'll believe the experts. You keep making things up.
Jerry, the title of this blog post is "Border Barrier and the Environment". I am completely on topic.
Moose
Nat Geo
Please read and understand.
One other question (as long as we're not sticking to the topic of the blog post): Building the wall on our side of the river would give land to Mexico. I imagine that giving American land to another country would require some sort of Congressional approval, would it not?
Moose
Moose,
Actually if you had read the links provided... You would realize that there will be PIN operated electronic gates that the land owner can use to access their land that is on the other side of the barrier.
I know you trust your experts, however I challenge you to find an expert who has weighed in on the current specific proposal.
I'll read your link later.
Moose, I trust no "expert" that defies common sense. Common sense is that a "barrier" to human traffickers and drug runners need not impede plant spores, butterflies and eagles. Steep canyon walls and a river work in the opposite way, but they are part of the natural ecosystem. If you haven't been there, you don't know.
Hi Moose,
Okay I read it and the title some what says it all...
"6 ways the border wall could disrupt the environment Trump's plan to build a wall from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific could come with unintended consequences for wildlife and people."
My point being that Trump's initial proposals are long dead.
Let's get back to evaluating each section.
"Let's get back to evaluating each section."
Yes. Exactly. But that's the liberal position. I'm surprised you agree.
Moose
"...need not impede plant spores, butterflies and eagles."
How do you know that to be true?
Moose
Remember, the loss of wolves affected trees and songbirds and mosquito populations. How do you know what the wall will do to the ecosystem, and thus the plants, butterflies, and eagles?
Also, most plants don't have spores.
Moose
Well known fact, Moose. Butterflies, eagles, and plant spores FLY. I am surprised your "experts" do not know this.
As for the "liberal position," I suggest you complain to Pelosi, et all that they are not being very good liberals. Trump's actual proposal calls for exactly that and Democrats are taking a very unliberal position, according to you. Yet they are taking the standard liberal position by being in strong opposition to common sense and the common people.
Cacti have seeds, carried by birds, and pollen, carried by the wind. Any other science denying you care to do in denying the common sense of a border barrier?
I'm not denying any science. I'm seeing the big picture, while you're focused on direct effects. If there are no eagles, will they fly over the wall?
Moose
No sir, the liberal position is to use effective border security. Where a wall will be effective, it becomes an option. See how simple it is?
Moose
Moose,
Actually the liberal position right now is "$0 for barriers"...
That is why we see Pelosi as being unreasonable.
The House is doing their job and the majority of the country doesn't want the wall. McConnell is the one holding up the process of getting the government running again and Trump is the one who walked out of negotiations. That is why we don't believe Republican lies.
Moose
"the majority of the country doesn't want the wall" Prove it.
As for "walking out," if one side says "we won't give more than $1 for what you want" and the "ask" is for $5 billion, what kind of negotiation would be taking place? Trump isn't hitting them hard enough yet. He could paint them as FAR more unreasonable than he has.
Pew, Among Many
As to what kind of negotiation, Trump is holding the government and its workers hostage. The government could be reopened, and border security can be discussed separately from it. Pelosi has no reason to give in to the temper tantrum of the man-baby in the White House.
Moose
"He could paint them as FAR more unreasonable than he has."
Perhaps putting the security of members of Congress at risk was a more entertaining game for the toddler.
Moose
That is the crux of our problem.
Trump has little to lose either.
Because just like Pelosi, his core voters support him.
Back to the other post... We voters are to blame.
Not ME! I voted for Trump, and for Republicans in the Congress and in the Senate. I did NOT vote for Pelosi. Therefore if the wall gets built, I am being properly represented. If the government shuts down, it's not my fault at all.
Opening the Government and "discussing border security later" is Lucy holding the football.
Jerry,
Is that how you see all arguments and frayed relationships in your life?
And thank you for making my point...
The Conservatives will stick with Trump and blame the DEMs no matter the consequences to innocent by standers.
Just as Liberals will stick with Pelosi and blame the GOPers no matter the consequences to innocent by standers.
With all the hard headed, big ego and high minded folks in this "negotiation", I certainly feel for those innocent by standers.
Innocent? Really? How many federal employees voted for Democrats? You're still trying to draw a moral equivalence between the two sides, and it makes no sense to me. One side of this argument is right and the other wrong, and the other ought to yield to simple reason.
Jerry,
Though I support building additional barriers to slow the entrance of people entering the US illegally and claiming asylum. Even I understand that there is no...
right or wrong in this argument...
It is just 2 very stubborn groups of people harming innocent bystanders.
To continue on my next post.
You are going to have to explain that one to me. If you "support additional barriers" are you right or are you wrong to do so? If you are wrong, why do you stubbornly cling to that view? And who are the "innocent bystanders"? The invaders? The open low-wage Americans? You yourself claimed we are all responsible for the shutdown. Are we all also innocent bystanders?
I support a compromise, which both sides seem to be resistant to.
The innocent bystanders I am pointing to are the government employees and all of the US citizens who are impacted.
Please remember that the was for keeping the government running until Trump threw his fit.
I have to wonder where was Trump before that bill passed the Senate? Is he that unaware and disengage?
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