Awhile back we had a discussion regarding what is poor? And why are poor people poor? G2A American Poverty ? A couple of proposed definitions for poor included:
This topic is important to me because the academic gap between poor kids and non-poor kids is huge. Also, I am tired of Race being the typical excuse? I work with people from many countries, economic classes and nationalities, this is not the cause. However I keep thinking that the above reasons certainly wouldn't make a very good resume if someone was applying for the job of Parent.
So if this the case... I am not sure how "society" can compensate for these factors, or if we want to. Here we go again. Thoughts?
By the way, you will find the Hennepin County household income distribution graph in the What is Middle Class link. In case you were curious how many households live on <$??K.
G2A Poor Kids: Stupid or Unlucky?
G2A Ready for Kindergarten?
G2A That Stubborn Achievement Gap
G2A What is the Middle Class
G2A Teachers Grade Parents
G2A Conservatives Stumped ?
G2A Blame vs Contributions
"Income so low that you have a hard time providing for basic needs. (ie food, clothing, shelter, utilities, school supplies, etc) For a family of 4: shelter could be a two bedroom apartment." G2A
"The poor are those without wealth. Wealth is the ability to provide things to people, including food, clothing and shelter, but also things like recreation, religious experience and education." J.Now I think we understand that bad luck or acts of God can leave almost anyone destitute. (ie long term disability, sudden death, mental illness, etc) Assuming these were not to be included, since we were looking primarily for individual related causes. (ie something within peoples control) Here were some of the ideas that were generated:
- bad choices / irresponsible behaviors
- divorce / single parent household
- having more children than they afford
- limited education
- government incentives
This topic is important to me because the academic gap between poor kids and non-poor kids is huge. Also, I am tired of Race being the typical excuse? I work with people from many countries, economic classes and nationalities, this is not the cause. However I keep thinking that the above reasons certainly wouldn't make a very good resume if someone was applying for the job of Parent.
So if this the case... I am not sure how "society" can compensate for these factors, or if we want to. Here we go again. Thoughts?
By the way, you will find the Hennepin County household income distribution graph in the What is Middle Class link. In case you were curious how many households live on <$??K.
G2A Poor Kids: Stupid or Unlucky?
G2A Ready for Kindergarten?
G2A That Stubborn Achievement Gap
G2A What is the Middle Class
G2A Teachers Grade Parents
G2A Conservatives Stumped ?
G2A Blame vs Contributions
27 comments:
I think poor people are poor because they have lost bargaining power. I date this to the PATCO strike, which really marks the beginning of the decline of organized labor in America. And somehow, we stumbled into an economic system that rewarded the rearrangement, the redistribution, if you will, of wealth, rather than wealth creation. For me the transition is sybolised by the contrast between George Romney who became modestly wealthy by building something, and his son, who became vastly wealthy building nothing. Metaphrically, as a nation we have been focused on getting a larger piece of the pie without paying attention to the fact that the pie itself just wasn't growing as fast as it should. And the results are clear enough when even right wing Fox News points out that 47% of working Americans don't make enough in income to pay federal income taxes.
==Hiram
Now don't start us down that path already. Even with things the way they are, whatever that may mean, there are people that can make a basic/better living and there are folks who consistently struggle to keep a job, make rent, buy food, etc. And these poor folk seem to come from all walks of life.
My question is factors make this difference?
I have a lot of opinions on this, however I would like to hear other beliefs.
I think you have compiled a great list of the reasons why individuals, of their own actions, become or remain poor. I will note that of the five, the only one strictly the fault of the individual is the rather nebulous "poor choices." The others are all caused by the incentives or actions of a huge government trying to "eliminate" poverty and having the opposite effect. Government welfare requires fathers to leave their families, before marriage, and women to accept divorce knowing that Big Daddy will give them money. The poorest educations go to the children of poverty, guaranteeing the ongoing cycle. Government dependence creates new generations of dependence, robbed of the very idea of a work ethic or personal responsibility. Just like everything else, if government would butt out, it would get better because individuals would make it better.
J. Ewing
By the way, hiram is right in saying that our economy hasn't grown as it should, but it is for the same reason: government controls to much of the economy and stifles personal initiative and responsibility. Freedom makes the economy grow, not government mandates.
More business, societal and government factors... Yet many people make it and many people falter in the same big mixing pot.
Where do personal responsibility, personal belief systems, personal motivation, self discipline, perseverence/toughness, etc fit into this discussion?
If discussing why people are poor is too hard. What attributes do people that escape generational poverty have that enable them to escape their supposed doom while living in the same society as those that remain trapped?
Those things kind Of went uP in smoke with Patco and the changing economy. Let's understand that when we are talking about welfare we are talking about social security things people paid for and are entitle. Hiram
Hiram,
So in your opinion, since patco, every single poor person has been trapped with no hope of escape.
I find this hard to believe since I know some that may not have hit it rich, but they are happily living in the "lower to middle" middle class with jobs they are pretty satisfied with.
Perhaps it is instructive to remember what happened after welfare reform passed the US Congress, namely that 2/3 of them left the welfare rolls and found jobs or went to school. That leaves about 20% without the wherewithall, financially or attitudinally, to better their own situation. I've met some of them, and it isn't pretty. We simply must get the education system changed so that the children of these people can learn basic American values and be educated to "become productive members of society." After that, we can slowly train parents for jobs, and the attitudes and practices that let them get and keep one. And of course to do that we have to get government out of the way of job creation.
J. Ewing
I typed my post title into google. Here are some Links for for thought:
Bischke What Keeps Poor People Poor
Stossel: Poor remain Poor?
New Republic Why More Poor Don't Escape
Youtube Poor are Poor?
Arina: Hidden Psychology
Squidoo Reason Poor Poor?
I haven't read them thoroughly, but they seem interesting.
the income mobility myth
Thanks Laurie,
Though I found the comments at least as interesting as the post, if not more so.
Same challenge I gave the guys. Some folks are still getting ahead and others aren't. And they are facing many of the same challenges.
What enables them to succeed against the "odds"?
Thanks Laurie,
Though I found the comments at least as interesting as the post, if not more so.
Same challenge I gave the guys. Some folks are still getting ahead and others aren't. And they are facing many of the same challenges.
What enables them to succeed against the "odds"?
I believe the ability to delay gratification is a factor that helps some to succeed and move up.
don't! the secret of self control
kid's Marshmallow Experiment
I don't think it's the whole answer,and I don't completely trust his research, but this book by Charles Murray has some interesting ideas on how and why rich people stay rich and poor people stay poor--"Coming Apart". http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/books/review/charles-murray-examines-the-white-working-class-in-coming-apart.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=fishtown&st=cse
Basically it says that wealth begets wealth by habit and heredity. And that the poor haven't had the chance to get good work ethics and have experienced moral decay. I think he's a little disingenuous about larger economic and employment forces (the same blue collar jobs don't provide the same middle-class living that they did 50 years ago), but it's good for conversation.
--Annie
NY Times: Working Class Coming Apart
I find the Arina article to be almost a complete answer to your question. Much of it boils down to a sense of entitlement, to live as they want at somebody else's expense. There was a time when that attitude and 10 cents would have gotten you a cup of coffee, if it didn't get you tossed out of the joint first, ya lazy bum.
It is like my Dad used to insist, that there was a difference between bums and hobos (and he knew of what he spoke). "A hobo will work; a bum won't." Our current freeloading class have been allowed to foster their sense of entitlement by the madness of government "helping the poor." I guess maybe it's true that "The Lord helps those who help themselves," and government seems to always help those who won't.
J. Ewing
Arina's description definitely did resonate, though it seemed a bit strong in describing the typical "stereotypes". They would have definitely earned me a classist label.
The Bischke post and his use of Malcolm Gladwell's "connections theory" was fascinating and makes some sense. Though I find his writings regarding "practical intelligence" even more related. Lector: Langan and Oppenheimer
My quick summary and interpretation is that being smart is not as important as being able to manage relationships and work with people that can help one succeed. In particular, the ability to read challenging situations, maintain control, lobby for their position, adjust their style, etc.
In essence the ability to fit into American culture and make forward progress.
Now unfortunately, this is where beliefs, culture, relgion, peer groups, wardrobe, etc may fit into the poverty equation.
For better or worse we live in a culture where to get good grades, make money, move ahead, etc, one typically has to "play well" within the establishment. It is probably similar in all societies, I would guess.
Now how does this apply to all the folks that want to live significantly outside the norm???
In the book Whatever it takes they mentioned the difficulty of using educated stereotypical social workers to work with the culturally diverse parents. Unfortunately the parents were resistant for many reasons.
CNN Savings Rates
"For better or worse we live in a culture where to get good grades, make money, move ahead, etc, one typically has to 'play well' within the establishment."
I hate to distress you, but that is EXACTLY as it should be. It is called "social norming" or "societal norming" and it is the means by which those exhibiting aberrant behavior (relative to the society) are brought into line with what the society sees as acceptable and desirable, through social and/or economic ostracization. Unfortunately, when government tells us that we cannot object to outrageous behavior and, even worse, begins to SUBSIDIZE it, we are shoved down the road to dissension, dissolution and disaster. You could say our necessary "unit cohesion" is harmed.
How many times does it have to be repeated that the route out of poverty is to graduate high school, get married before having children, and stay married? Pretty simple, or it used to be.
J. Ewing
Is this what you mean?
Obama Borg
I was also thinking of some of the unique fashions and decor that are out there. How do you think these folks would be received when applying for that typical office job? Or possibly as customer service at the front desk?
Ear Gauge guy What happened to a simple diamond stud?
Saggy Pants Guy Why? That can not be convenient...
Face Tattoo Guy Simply amazing...
I wonder if they are puzzled when they don't get a second interview?
I am happy they have found a look they hopefully enjoy. However as with most choices, there are usually consequences.
Or the Somali/Muslim cab drivers that refuse to carry animals or alcohol in a culture where it is socially acceptable. Star Tribune Taxi proposal
I respect their dedication to their religion, however at what cost? Finding a new line of work?
Melting Pot vs Ethnic Stew
Cartoon
Your cartoon speaks to the desirability of limits on immigration, and hints at the necessary pace of assimilation. That is, these are poor people, and we should get them up out of poverty before allowing any more poor people in.
Total assimilation is not necessary, but we need new Americans to adopt American values in addition to their own-- we have a unique American culture based on individual freedom and responsibility. "It ain't much, but it's all we got" and we should not be making it equal to all others or teaching as if it were non-existent. It matters, and greatly, that we all speak English and all want, roughly, the same things out of life. Beyond that, if you want to shop at the Halal grocery, or celebrate Cinco de Mayo, heck, maybe we'll go with you. Viva la difference! (how many words and phrases have we borrowed from Spanish, French, Latin, etc., that populate American English?)
Face tattoo guy would be made manager in Samoan society. No one here would, should, nor be forced to hire him. Cultural/Societal norming must have a place. If these baggy pants kids suffer no consequences, they'll grow up to think they are entitled to be Ear Gunge guy, entitled to a free ride on society's dime.
J. Ewing
I am happy to give immigrants a generation or 2 to begin melding. I can understand that.
I am more confused by those trapped in the Cycle of Poverty. I am amazed that they don't start modelling behaviors, beliefs, behaviors, ambition, etc of those that are "getting ahead".
Instead you hear the stereotypical story of "Bob" being harassed for "changing" to get ahead. Almost like the harassers are excited to support and continue their failed system that has kept them poor. I don't understand it...
I just skimmed through that rather extensive article, but the item that caught my eye was "Research shows that schools with students that perform lower than the norm are also those hiring least-qualified teachers as a result of new teachers generally working in the area that they grew up in."
I think that is what I said, not so long ago, which is that failing schools do not have the high-quality teachers that would be necessary to teach these admittedly more difficult students. And since there is a presumption by "the system" that these kids are going to fail anyway, because they are poor and/or black, we deny these kids the one thing that we CAN give them to break the cycle of poverty they are in.
I've long observed that poor countries are poor because they simply lack either capital resources or the incentive, i.e. capitalism, to utilize them. Capital isn't just natural resources or machinery, it includes people and their attitudes, and EDUCATION. Look at India. They had almost nothing except they highly educated (portion of) population. Now they are able to "export" that education and their economy is growing rapidly. That exact same lesson should be applied to poor people in this country, but our ossified education system won't permit it.
J. Ewing
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