The Money Tree

Liberal commenters on MP often state that the way to the out state voter's heart is by spending more money on them. Since I came from out state this concept often confuses me. MP Confused

"I am always fascinated at where folks think the government money to service bonds and spend on projects comes from? Is there a secret money tree in St Paul?

From my simplistic understanding, every dollar that the government spends has to be taken from the citizens. Or in the case of bonds, it is spent on the current citizens while the burden of paying the bill is transferred to our children.

Now I understand that many here think that the MN government has not been increasing their spending fast enough. However this data from the MMB clearly shows that gov't spending is/has been increasing more rapidly than our incomes. Probably not a good trend. MN Spending History

And please remember that it was the DFL who wanted to raise taxes on fuel (regressive tax), rather than finding ways to make government more effective and efficient.

 A related string from MP GOP Surprise. (see link for responses from Dan)

"When I was visiting my family in SW MN, I heard this interesting story. Apparently one of our neighbors works road construction in MN and SD, he is apparently paid $16/hr in SD and $32/hr in MN due to MN's wage laws. Now the reality is that $16/hr is a good wage in that community, however the folks in St Paul apparently know better than the employers what a fair wage is.

Therefore citizens across MN are paying more in taxes, and the locals are not too happy about that."

"Actually they mandate much higher wages in the Metro...Prevailing Wage

Just remember that when you are wondering at the staggering cost of road, bridge, light rail, stadium, etc construction. It is the folks in St Paul who mandated the wages and drove up the project costs.

Not sure how taking more from all of us citizens to give more to certain citizens makes sense. Maybe it encourages those folks to vote for them..." G2A

The MN GOP Surprise

Sean and the Urbanites are picking on the farm hicks again...
MP GOP Surprise

"I would be fine with lowering farm property taxes, for example, if that is what rural people want. If we're doing that I would like them to cut the MN Department of Agriculture or cut them out of Local Government Aid to pay for it, not make cuts to Metro Transit or the University of Minnesota.

People in rural areas need to realize that the Twin Cities are the engine of the local economy and metro taxes are paying for their schools, their nursing homes and their local government. If lower taxes are their highest priority then we need to stop paying for those items in rural areas to compensate for the loss of revenue.

I don't believe that is the best tactic in the long run. After all, those Greater Minnesota kids end up moving to the Twin Cities when they want a career and we need them prepared to contribute." Dan

"If rural Minnesota really wants to be left alone, they best make sure they understand what that means. Because without LGA or the state K-12 education funding formula or the historical 50-50 distribution of road funding dollars, the ability to kick gay people out of the local bakery may prove to be a hollow victory in the long run." Sean

"I think you underestimate how reliant the MN and Metro economy are on Agriculture, Tourism, Ag Business, etc.

Just like a 6 cylinder engine, 2 fouled plugs can ruin a car's performance.

It would be interesting to learn how many metro jobs our rural economy enables? A start is General Mills, Cargill, Land O'Lakes, CHS / Cenex, the Banks, U of MN, Syngenta, Hormel, Koch and Other Petroleum Industries, other food processing companies, Labs that focus on animal supplies/ medication / food, etc." G2A

And without rural MN, Minnesota would be a pretty boring and broke State. Who would want to live in a cold city if it were not for Cabin country, all those pristine lakes, hiking trails, etc?

Not to mention that agriculture is what made this State and the Metro what it is... Remember the term "Mill City" and some of those key businesses like General Mills, Pillsbury, Cargill, Land O Lakes, Minneapolis Moline, etc, etc.

Here is an interesting history of our area.Development Periods 

My simple point is that somehow all Minnesotans need to work together. And respect each others views. Our system was wisely set up to force us to do so...  G2A

Recount Equals Scam

NBC Recount Coverage  Trump's response is amusing/sad, especially after all his talk of a rigged system and not committing to accepting the results if he lost.

Of course on the other hand, it is very strange that Hillary is getting involved in this very long shot attempt after her previous comments and actions.. Thoughts?

"President-elect Donald Trump slammed the effort as a "scam by the Green Party for an election that has already been conceded." He also posted on Twitter, including a series of tweets early Sunday quoting Clinton's previous comments on respecting the outcome of the election and calling the recount effort "sad.""

Who Is Scared of the Big Bad Trump?

From MP Trump Mandate, someone finally answered my question about why are Liberals so scared?  And what of?

"What do I expect. Full disclosure: I consider myself a progressive liberal. What I expect to see is a Republican Congress attempting to disable the ACA so that the 20 million newly insured people will find themselves unable to continue their insurance because of costs or lack of choices. Then there's the rest of us who will likely see higher premiums and fewer choices due to the Republicans trying to incentivize insurance companies to make more money. 

What I expect to see is our natural resources decimated by the renewed and increased push to drill for oil and coal rather than investing in greener and more renewable energy sources. 

I expect to see our education system become more and more privatized (which typically means more expensive and exclusive), leaving behind millions of children whose parents are unable to get into the privatized schools either due to lack of money or the proper credentials: race, religion, location, etc. 

I expect to see people become less civilized in their interactions with those who are different from them because of color, religion, wealth, occupation, education, gun ownership, or any other rationalized disdain. And I expect more people will live in fear of that increased vitriol even as many try to defuse the anger and bigotry. 

I expect to see more and more people struggle harder and harder to make it each month because their wages haven't seen an effective raise in several years. All while executives and others already wealthy people see thier taxes decrease so that they keep more of their "earned" money. 

I hope I'm wrong, but this is what I expect to see in the next 4 years. And, yes, I do expect it to be worse than if Hillary had won the election and/or the Democrats had gained the majority in Congress." Cindy
 

"Now that is better. It sounds like you expect them to behave like typical Republicans... Not Facists or crazy people. As for your concerns:

Please remember that most of those 20 million actual got insurance via the medicaid expansion. And please remember that we tax payers and insurance premium payers are funding that expansion, the pre-existing conditions coverage, coverage to age 26, etc by paying more. ACA had some good parts like the insurance mandate, otherwise it is for the most part a welfare expansion / wealth transfer program.

I am not sure how drilling "decimates natural resources"... Since the oil is under the ground. You should go visit ND. There are wells and pipelines, but mostly there are miles and miles and mile of wheat fields.

I see up and downsides to vouchers. However given the number of kids Left Behind in the Mpls, St Paul, and similar districts... Especially minority and poor children. I think we owe it to them to help them escape those schools and the monopoly that controls them.

After watching the post election protests, I agree with you that there are many on the Left who are very biased and angry. :-) Hopefully they will become more tolerant and peaceful.

Please note that the Democrats had full control for 2 years, and had the Presidency for 6 years. I agree that they did a poor job of growing our economy and helping the working class. Hopefully Trump and crew can do better.

I am a big believer in protecting the goose that lays the golden eggs. I think Hillary was ready to slaughter the goose in order to take all the eggs... I am not excited with Trump etal, but I think it could have been worse. Time will tell. Thanks for the clarification." G2A

Gratitude and Happiness

I thought this was a good link on Thanksgiving Day, especially since many of us are nervous, scared and not very thankful these days.  CNN The Year of Living Thankfully

As I watch what is happening in Syria and Iraq, I think we should all be thanking heavens for our blessings be they big or small.  When I get frustrated and am feeling ungrateful, I draw a vertical line down the center of a piece of paper and label one side Good and the other Not Good. Then I start writing items down, and the Good list is always much bigger than the Not Good list...

Another trick is that I try to remember that I am not owed any effort by anyone. (except maybe basic politeness) This sounds negative, however I see it as positive.  It helps me to not get frustrated with other people doing differently than I wish. And it helps me to really appreciate when others choose to make my life easier.  I can see it for the gift it is.

Happy Thanksgiving !!!

The Problem with Sanctuary Cities

Ibrahim is on a roll...  My first comment was that I find comments like the one below amazing.


Why is it that the folks who want higher incomes for low end workers, more jobs for minority workers, more social services / benefits for low income folks, etc seem to be the most vocal "Do Not Deport" illegal workers voices?


Apparently there are ~90,000 illegal workers in MN.  Now that is a lot of job openings if they were all returned home.  Wouldn't this be good for all of the legal low end workers and those who are unemployed? 


"Tripiciano said that if police officers were forced to round up everyone who’s here without authorization, there will be numerous businesses that would have to close down. “You don’t want to put the companies that employ their community members at risk by taking away a large chunk of their workforce,” she added. “That just doesn’t make any sense.”


Personally I think police should cooperate with ICE.  Thoughts?

The Robots are Coming

Ibrahim wrote a good piece here.


I accept that this is the future.  The question I posed is how is our society and education system willing to change to ensure NO Child is Left Behind.  It is critical that EVERY non-special needs child who graduates is academically and socially cable, and interested in working and life long learning.


You know my views:

• hold Parents accountable
• hold School and Social Service Systems accountable
• promote households with 2 mature adults
• other?

The Obstructionist Party

The other comment that did not make the cut here went something like this.

Now as you know, I am a fan of gridlock and slow steady change.  I like it when we take 2 steps forward, 1 step back, maybe a couple to the side. Anything to give people time to adjust to the social change and to allow our economy time to adjust to the new system.

For 6 years Liberal comments have been obsessed with how the GOP were OBSTRUCTIONISTS to the CORRECT function of Government.  They kept insisting that Government should be doing more of something in order to be deemed productive.

My big questions now are what are the Liberals going to call:

• the GOP as they work to pass laws, budgets, tax cuts, Justices, etc?
• the Democrats as they try to stop the passing of these?

Is the Democratic Party now the Obstructionist Party?  Thoughts?

Definitely NOT a Popular Mandate

Here was an interesting article that shows just how large Clinton's popular majority be when everything is sorted out.

Atlantic 1.5 million and Growing

And something interesting.

"Do All States Distribute Electoral Votes That Way?

No, but almost all do: 48 of the 50 U.S. states and Washington, D.C., award all of their electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote there.

Which States Don't Use the Winner-Take-All Method?

Only two states award their electoral votes in a different manner. They are Nebraska and Maine.

How Do Nebraska and Maine Distribute Electoral Votes?

They allocate their electoral votes by congressional district. In other words, instead of distributing all of its electoral votes to the candidate who wins the statewide popular vote, Nebraska and Maine awards an electoral vote to the winner of each congressional district. The winner of the statewide vote gets two additional electoral votes. This method is called the Congressional District Method; Maine has used it since 1972 and Nebraska has used it since 1996.

Doesn't the U.S. Constitution Prohibit Such Distribution Methods?

Not at all. In fact, it's just the opposite.

While the U.S. Constitution requires states to appoint electors, the document is silent on how they actually award votes in presidential elections. There have been numerous proposals to circumvent the winner-take-all method of awarding electoral votes.

The Constitution leaves the matter of electoral-vote distribution up to the states, stating only that:

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress." The key phrase pertaining to the distribution of electoral votes is obvious: " ... in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct."

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the states' role in awarding electoral votes is "supreme."

Are Electors the Same As Delegates?

No. Electors are not the same as delegates. Electors are part of the mechanism that chooses a president. Delegates, on the other hand, distributed by the parties during the primaries and serve to nominate candidates to run in the general election. "

Trump and White Old Men

It is hard to believe that Trump can not find more bright capable women and minorities to fill these posts.  Maybe all those folks are correct that say he thinks women and minority people are not as capable or smart...

Thoughts?

Politico White Men Dominate
WP Binder of White Men
VOX All White Men

FoxNews Michelle Rhee

Trump and Facism?

Those MP Moderators... MP Hope from Bad Week

"Methods: What I haven't seen is a discussion on methods: Seems that Mr. T used most every propaganda trick in the book that equates to Machiavellian and Fascism. ~ 5-6 months back a suggestion was made to fight fire with fire, however, it may have been you Paul, that suggested that the progressive not entertain that idea! So is it elitism, to try to play to folks logic, fact & intellect? Or; better to go the low road with the slogans, veiled realities, and UN-substantiated character assassination? 

Personally I think the low road: Got an in-law that was a CFO, did he check T's numbers before buying? Not a chance Just let that one blow on by. Hate to say it but plenty of fascism to go around in America, sold out for a slogan." Dennis

"So where exactly do you see fascism in America?" Ilya

"Anti Muslin Rhetoric, Anti Mexican Rhetoric, (in the 30's of Germany it was the Jews. Stephen Banner, "Far Alt right (Fascism Land) Strategist for Trump!" Dennis

"Personally I think it is the Democrats who seem more interested in centralizing power in Washington DC... The GOP seems fine with keeping most of the power in the States...  Interesting question...  "Facism - Webster Definition - a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"" G2A

"The central point folks like Ilya and Appelen always miss regarding their argument that liberals are more prone to Facism is the reference to a "dictatorial" leader. We live in a constitutional liberal democracy wherein our presidents are elected and subject to Constitutional limits. No amount of hysteria changes that central fact.

The reason people get worried about a guy like Trump and other republicans is historically dictators emerge from the right, or conservative ideologies, that's simply an historical fact. There's never been a truly liberal dictator, and the liberal preference for organized governance cannot be described as a latent tendency towards totalitarianism. And in fact republicans are more likely to tear up the Constitution despite their frequent claims to be "Constitutionalist".  

Republicans are for instance on the record as Theocrats who think this is a "Christian" nation. They have typically been the quickest to exercise extreme police force, and militarized policing based on racial and cultural stereotypes, i.e. "rounding up" millions of people and deporting them, creating religious registries, etc.  

Republican executives are also quite a bit more prone towards violating the laws, ignoring Congress, and overstepping authority; i.e. Nixon- Watergate and the illegal bombing of Cambodia, Reagan and the Iran Contra affair, Bush and his "rendition" program, the Guantanamo prisoner, use of torture, etc.  

And of course there's a plethora of policy initiatives from abortion to bathrooms where republican politicians are trying to regulate individual personal behavior in the service of their "values", which is a standard claim of all dictators.

Now some will point to the Communist model as an example of "liberal" dictatorship, and that's a common confusion that conflates left to right political spectrum's with discrete ideology. Marxism can be said to have emerged form the "left", but there was never anything liberal about Marxism or communism. Marx and the communist hated liberals and claimed that their ideology transcending liberal vs. conservative political spectrum's, i.e. it was all about the Dialectic." Paul

My answer went something like this:  Lenin, Castro, Chavez, Mao, etc, etc. Facism can come from the Left very easily.  For it to happen the majority of people need to be desperate and willing to sell their freedom and common sense to take from the wealthy... (ie pre-Nazi)  I think we are pretty safe...

Nolan

Trump, Bannon and FEAR

Those MP Moderators...   MP Hope out of Bad Week

"Mr. Rose did not care to answer my question. Would you like to? What do you think about the fact that the white supremacist/neo-Nazi contingent is openly prominent among the Trump coalition? What do you think about the fact that Mr Trump has appointed Steve Bannon chief of staff, giving these groups a direct connection to the policy and tactical nerve center of the administration? Did the vast proportion of Trump voters who are not racists, homophobes, anti-Semites, misogynists, etc vote for this? If not, do you expect that they will rise up in protest very soon?" Charles

"Well... First you will need to convince us Trump Voters that Bannon is as bad as you say, and that is unlikely to happen based on the background research I did. It seems that it is only the Left leaning folks and publications who want to lynch Bannon without a trial. It looks like he has a pretty diverse background and education.

Second, I voted against Hillary's far left platform and was not excited to cast a vote for Trump. However since he is going to be put in office I will happily wait and see where things go from here. Not much sense protesting something that has not happened yet.

What terrible actions do you see Trump and Bannon taking that are causing you so much fear?" G2A

"Regrets. I can't dismiss a year of barely controlled excitement for Trump on every white supremacist/neo-Nazi site; his open acceptance of the endorsement of those groups; and his appointment as chief policy adviser of a man whose chief undertaking since taking over the scurrilous Breitbart site has been to launder white supremacist messaging. Nor can I conceive of a cogent concept of right and left pursuant to which Clinton's platform could be classified as "far left." So I don't think we share a moral or analytical universe to an extent sufficient for meaningful discourse." Charles

Response went something like this...


Facts and Data:
CNN Trump denounces Duke and KKK


Hillary was a Liberal...  And then she stretched even further left to secure the Democratic Socialists votes of the Bernie followers.


Again... Other than deporting ILLEGAL aliens..  What terrible actions do you see Trump and Bannon taking that are causing you so much fear?"

Crazy Laws that are being Proposed

Things will certainly be exciting for us bloggers during the coming years...


I especially like the Suck It Up Buttercup proposed law.  Especially if it would allow us to toss anyone into jail who blocks a freeway, access to a police station, etc...  Preferably for weeks...  Not hours...


Please feel free to protest...  Just don't infringe on the freedoms of your fellow citizens.

What to Do with Rural Hicks?

So Hiram wrote some "fighting words" that I think deserve prime time billing and further discussion.

"The Democrats stopped addressing the concerns of Rural America." G2A

"We really don't actually. In economic terms, rural America has been on the decline for the last century or so, and nothing anything anyone does, can stop that. We do support rural schools, nursing homes, various forms of infrastructure stuff. Out state, Republicans campaign on things like the state office building, and the supposed arrogance of urban liberals, but they offer little of the way of substance apart from the easing of environmental regulations." Hiram

"Rural America may have fewer voters now due to automation and big equipment. That does not make it any less important to our country. Ignore them at your own peril. They are very high "value add" citizens who support many of our aspects of the American economy. (ie wealth creators) Besides they are able to influence elections as we have seen... :-)" G2A

"It's important, sure, but a lot fewer people live there. And those who do are faced with economic forces nobody can do anything about. Certainly the Republicans offer no solutions, which is why they spent so much time demagoguing the office building." Hiram

I personally find this map fascinating.  All those huge parts of the country that "nobody can do anything about"?  And all that RED...  Oh my...  Thoughts?
USA Today Election in 4 Maps

MP Where is the F in DFL
Guardian Democrats Deserted Us
The Hill Democrats Forgot about Rural America
Slate Rural Elected Someone Who will Not Help Them

How to Improve the Electoral College System

Here are some thoughts from Joel:

 

Well here are my thoughts on changes (improvements?) that could be made to the EC:

• Could we have national electors that would vote for the person who wins that national popular vote? These would be in addition to the existing 538 electors. How many would there be? One possible argument against is that it would effectively give a portion of the population more power than "one person, one vote".
• Each State still gets the two "Senator" votes, meaning that two votes go to the winner of the statewide popular vote
• Each congressional district still gets a single vote based on the popular vote within the district, with the following caveats:

With regard to Congressional Districts:

• Gerrymandering is outlawed (how?)
• District boundaries are not affected by State boundaries, meaning that all congressional districts would have to have, as closely as possible, the same population without respect to State borders. My questions regarding this are: Is there a good reason for congressional districts to be contained within States? What reason is there for it to continue? States already get electoral votes.

ACA's Replacement?

Since people want to discuss this.  Here is a starting point.


CNN Money ACA Replacement
Ryan's A Better Way: Healthcare

Thank Heavens for the Electoral College

Now this comment is worth further discussion.

"Election wise I always trust the inherent wisdom of the voters. It's up to them to get it right, and I trust their judgment, even when I disagree with it. This time, they chose Hillary. If only the founders had the same trust in America and it's people as I do." --Hiram

I personally am a huge fan of the Senate and Electoral college. I think these 2 systems are single handedly responsible for keeping us a group of "United" States. Could you even imagine the structural strain this country would experience if the coasts could ignore the will of the people in the "fly over states"? 


Somehow the relatively homogenous "progressive" city dwellers think they know better than those non-college educated rural folks who run the businesses that provide us food, energy and so many other things we rely on.  You should have seen Chuck Todd and David Brooks turn red on Sunday when the Progressive Farmer Opinion Writer called out all the folks like themselves who spent the election coverage "belittling" the non-college rural vote.  I think they finally figured out that a lot of these "uneducated rural" voters are highly educated, engaged and running large complex farms and businesses.  It made me smile.


I have never understood why the "herd" in cities should have more power than the folks in other States. Personally I think every city dweller should have to spend sometime in the country doing real work, it may improve our country. If not, maybe they can just watch /read The Ultimate Gift

CNN Results
MP MN Results
Progressive Farmer Rural America Roars
RF Donkeys Rare in Rural America

Why Muslim Woman Votes For Trump?

This woman is incredible !!!  She gets it !!!

WP Why Muslim Woman Voted for Trump
CNN Woman being Interviewed

Joel is trying to explain over here that...

"Here's a link that describes it a whole lot better than I can.
Cinemax Theory of Racism 

If you can overlook racism, misogyny, homophobia, and xenophobia to get what you want, then you are choosing racism, misogyny, homophobia, and xenophobia."

So by his logic this immigrant Muslim woman is apparently a closet...  racist, misogynistic homophobic xenophobe... Or his idea could be all wet.

Here was my view:

"I agree. Some folks here want to blame the loss on Hillary being a flawed candidate... I would have preferred to have voted for Clinton if her platform was not so far Left, Race / Sex based and politically correct... 

The number of times that negative labels like xenophobe, misogynist, sexist, racist, bigot, deplorable, etc are applied to our hard working fellow citizens is terrible and of course it has consequences." G2A

Silly Clinton

CNN Clinton Blames Comey  She runs on a platform that is further Left than any modern candidate except Bernie...  She is a secretive uptight introvert who never was open, approachable and honest with the public.  She fails to energize the Democratic base, especially the young folks.

Now she is surprised that she lost and looking for a "scape goat".  What a silly Clinton...

MP Romney vs Trump in MN  I mean Trump only got ~3,000 more votes than Romney.  So MN must have only been close because the Democrats did not come out for her.  This probably is why we have a GOP MN Senate and House now.

" On Tuesday, he was the 11th consecutive Republican nominee to lose the state’s electoral votes. But he finished just 1.5 percentage points behind Democrat Hillary Clinton, which is a very slim margin compared to President Barack Obama’s nearly 8 point margin in 2012 and more than 10 point margin in 2008. 

Trump and Mitt Romney, the Republican who failed to defeat Obama here, and ultimately, in 2012, got about the same share of Minnesotans’ votes for president — just shy of 45 percent. In terms of total votes, the counts were similar, too: Romney’s final vote count was within 3,000 of Trump’s 1,322,892 in Minnesota on Tuesday, according to the most recently available election results from the Minnesota Secretary of State."

Government Needs to Accomplish More?

 MP Parliamentary Moment  If you don't know, Eric is a big fan of the parliamentary type governments.  His rationale is that the "in charge" government has more power to implement "the will of the people".  Whereas I am a big fan of the US system where things move slowly and all of the States have power to slow change to some degree.

Of course Liberals are excited by the idea of absolute control and the GOP says they also want this.  Whereas it makes me nervous when either side has "the power"...  They both seem to want to act like tyrants, totally forgetting that ~ half the population voted against them...  No wonder that pendulum just keeps moving back and forth... :-)

"Eric, Since I am a fan of the gridlock you usually are critical of, be careful what you ask for... You may get it... Even I will likely be wishing again for that gridlock soon. Both parties seem to let the power go to their head whenever they get control..." G2A

"Indeed, split government seems to cause less harm,...though accomplishing less as well." Steve

"I always wonder what people want government to "accomplish"?

We live in one of the best countries in the world, and yet the far right and far left folks seem to always want "big changes".

I have a simple goal for government and public employees: provide all the services you do today with better results while reducing the money you need to take out of the US GDP to do it. This is what we have been asking from the Private Sector for years as the Global Competition increased.

And yes the wealthy will need to continue paying most of the bills of our country because they have the money to do so. The rest of us can also help the country by reducing the costs.
- have only children you can afford
- get married and stay married
- be responsible in raising your children
- learn, work, save, invest, etc

Doing otherwise and sending the bill to the tax payers is not fair either." G2A

Make Them SUFFER

MP Revolt  Charles and Joel seem of like minds.  They seem to think that all of us Church going Conservatives are actual closet Sadists who are out to cause suffering... Here are Charles' thoughts and my response.

"Too Call It a revolt Against the Elites

Is true but completely misleading. If you understand why the middle and lower classes have been economically and culturally eviscerated over the past 40 years, you supported Sanders. If the Republican base understood, there’d be a majority for a true populist movement inclusive of all ordinary folks regardless of skin color.

But for 40 years, the Republican base has had its existential fear and atavistic hate stoked by the Republican elites and the establishment media against everyone except those who actually are screwing them. They revolted against the Republican elites not because the elites failed for 40 years to make their lives better, but because the elites promised for so long that they’d make others suffer, and they haven’t come thru. The base voted for Trump not because they actually have any conception of what will result from his economics, but because they believe that he’ll keep his promise to truly cause others to suffer.

Since Trump is as economically elitist as they come, their condition will continue to decline. But if he does keep his promise to make others suffer, all will be good." Charles

"Who do these folks want to suffer and in what way?

Now I do agree that many Republicans disagree with the government policies that transfer negative consequences from the person making poor choices to other tax payers. Some easy examples are:

- a single Mom who has 3 children from 3 different Men receiving money from tax payers

- people who failed to learn in school or are unwilling to take on harder jobs receiving higher "minimum wages" that must be paid by all Americans and/or receiving Medicaid from the tax payers

- public employees making more than a market based wage, having high job security and few performance requirements at the expense of the tax payers.

I don't think anyone is interested in seeing people suffer. But there is a real desire to transfer these personal consequences back to the individuals and off the backs of the tax payers. Please remember that tax payers are people too." G2A

God Help Us and Exit Polls

As you are painfully aware, I disliked both of the candidates for different reasons. So I would have been saying a prayer no matter who would have won.  I explained it to my Chinese co-worker in an email as follows.

Well… My guy won… I wish I could be happier…

The vote was kind of like some asking you if they should cut off your finger or your toe…

No matter which choice you make it is not good.

Hopefully he is a better President than he has been a person. (ie more humility, more patience, think before speaking, etc)

Me being fascinated with human nature. I personally find the exit polls fascinating. All this talk of Hispanics and Other races being against Trump and he got ~30% of their votes.  Only the Blacks were significantly pro-Democrat which I think says a lot unfortunately. (88+ %)

What a Nail Biter

Apparently it is much closer than thought.  How Exciting !!!

President of All?

Just assuming that the odds makers are correct and that Hillary wins, Laurie's comment from a previous post got me thinking. Hillary's says she wants to be a President for all American's, however how is she going to do this if "she has NO CHOICE but to CAVE to the FAR LEFT"?  It is not like Warren, Sanders and the Black Congressional Caucus are going away anytime soon.

"Hillary had no choice other than to lean farther left as this was needed to win the primary against Bernie.

About "With Hillary we know exactly what we get... More taxes and government control, less personal choice, more regulation, more poor unqualified immigrants (possible terrorists), stronger public employee unions / bureaucracy, etc... In short, a certain continuing of the warming water.."

GOP congress will not go along with a tax increase, any increase in regulation will be minor and mostly necessary, stronger unions are a good thing, I don't know the response to bureaucracy etc." Laurie

Of course I think she has always had a choice, and her decision was to pander to the Left.


As for "strong unions" are important...  If the Liberals truly believed strong unions were important they would be driving cars built in strong UAW plants...  Not cars built in foreign countries or weak union states.   

Latest CNN and Fox Maps

CNN is on top and Fox is below.  They are close but different.  I think I trust CNN's more since I can't see MN being even close.

Stuck in the Middle with You...

Here is what Laurie thinks Moderates should do.

"I think that a true middle or moderate view in this election is a person who strongly dislikes both candidates but is firmly in the never Trump camp. I think they would grudgingly vote for Hillary."

And she may be correct?  However I think that a true moderate should look both the policies and character of these poor candidates and make their own decision.

In the comments at MP Lonliness, Rachel made the following argument.

"I'm sorry that Ms. Carnahan is lonely. But, if she's really running on the idea that she can be someone that goes beyond politics, then she should have the courage to say who she is voting for for president. Quite frankly, it will probably say everything her potential constituents need to know about her. If she's voting Trump, the liberals won't vote for her because of what he stands for and they know that she's ok with what he stands for. If she's voting for Clinton, the Republicans won't vote for her because Hillary (she's an old school Republican, so it's not what she stands for that's distasteful). Personally, I couldn't vote for Ms. Carnahan because I believe that anyone who hasn't made up their mind on the presidential race has some significant problems." Rachel

"Do you really believe this? "she's an old school Republican, so it's not what she stands for that's distasteful"  Have you looked at her Web site's issues page? She was Left of center initially and went only further Left to placate Bernie's supporters. I can't think of any Republican who supported higher taxes, tax payer funded college, tax payer funded healthcare for working age adults, nominating Liberal Justices, etc, etc, etc. Not to mention her questionable character.
And yes Trump's character is also questionable... That I do not deny." G2A

"Yes, Really. Remember Reagan? If she ran on the same platform as Reagan (and she's not that far off already, honestly), the GOP would still hate her because Hillary. Put another way, the GOP would hate Reagan if his name was Hillary Clinton, because quite frankly, the policies, including the "liberal justices" are not terribly different. Let's face it, though, Ronald Reagan is the GOP Jesus--more of a legend than a role model." Rachel

"Facts and Data. I think they are pretty far apart. At least based on this policy document.1980 GOP / Presidential Platform"

"Really. I must be reading the wrong document. Got a different link?" Rachel

"Funny. In that document they promote: Lower taxes, Reducing government spending, Supply side economics, Reduction of welfare, etc. 

All the normal GOP stuff that looks nothing like Hillary's platform which promotes: Higher taxes, Public investment in technology / companies, Increase in free college, free healthcare, etc, etc 

Yep. They are pretty different, or do have a source to help me understand your view?" G2A

I guess my point is that people who are still undecided need to ignore all the emotional vilifying that both parties are doing and get back to basics.  And if anyone says that Hilary is an "Republican" from any era, just say NO...  As GovTrack shows, she was a moderate Liberal as a Senator and has only gone Left from there to chase the Bernie supporters.
On the Issues Clinton
Clinton GovTrack

With Trump it is a bit more challenging since he bounces around...  But if you really don't want Hillary and her policies to be the way we head.  Then he may be worth taking a chance.

I wish you luck on coming to a final decision, and encourage you to make your vote count by...

• Voting for Trump / Against Hillary
• Voting for Hillary / Against Trump

Because doing anything else means you have wasted your vote in our 2 party system.

Electoral Maps

Things definitely are looking bleak for Donald.  It will be humorous though if he loses worse than McCain did in 2008 and Romney did in 2012. Especially after all the insults he has hurled their way. I mean he is running against a very poor Democratic candidate and still gets whooped...  I wonder if he will be able to be introspective and take personal responsibility for the loss. (if only to himself)

CNN Interactive Electoral Map

Repent Thee Sinners

From Laurie:

It is not to late to change your mind and vote the right way on Tuesday.

The Conservative Case for Voting for Clinton

Now for Something Completely Different

Adam makes a very interesting argument in


MP It’s not OK: How men enable rape culture at work


I already have a couple of comments there...  Thoughts?